Is GNB bad or is TBN too good?

I have both jobs at level 80 and I'm finding it significantly more difficult to pull a lot of mobs on GNB than on DRK, mainly because of TBN.

Also I find the soloing bosses after a healer has died to be significantly easier to do on DRK and near impossible on GNB.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4f439675f7.png

Jokes aside, GNB has the worst self sustain of all tanks, but it doesn't make them bad. You are simply not supposed to solo bosses.

GNB has really good dps while weaker mitigation (camouflage needs a buff but i hope its dps stays as is)
Drk is a bit more well rounded now TBN is a really meaty shield

TBN was always A grade in SB and i

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

TBN was always A grade in SB and i

---

Silly phone. It was just buffed, of course it's too good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

GNB has really good dps while weaker mitigation (heart of stone needs a buff but i hope its dps stays as is)

---

If you buff Heart of Stone, you officially kill WAR as a viable choice for OT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hierro

Silly phone. It was just buffed, of course it's too good.

---

TBN has always been a mix bag
It is really good but its also extremely awkward in alot of cases sometimes even too good not sure why they buffed it
imo it should have stayed how it was and if shield didnt break you just got 25 blood instead of 50 from break

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

If you buff Heart of Stone, you officially kill WAR as a viable choice for OT.

---

sorry i was thinking of camouflage

DRK is way worse than PAL and WAR in dungeon pulls. For the love of god do not nerf us any more, we've already fallen far enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

TBN has always been a mix bag
It is really good but its also extremely awkward in alot of cases sometimes even too good not sure why they buffed it
imo it should have stayed how it was and if shield didnt break you just got 25 blood instead of 50 from break

---

Too good might be the right way to call it. I already noticed how I barely got it to break against the mini-bosses in the very first new Dungeon. It was basically me just throwing away 3000MP because it wouldn't break. So I just said screw it, and took the damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShinShimon

DRK is way worse than PAL and WAR in dungeon pulls. For the love of god do not nerf us any more, we've already fallen far enough.

---

That is simply not true, DRK now has the best AoE damage of all tanks, thanks to Flood of Shadow/Darkness being weaved between Quietus Delirium spam, on top of Salted Earth. (not to mention Abyssal Drain being oGCD)
The Blackest Night also is the best self mitigation in the game, not only for being spammable, but also completely DPS neutral while increasing your effective HP by 1/4 of maximum value.

DRK is just broken in every way, especially in dungeons. I also suspect that DRK is going to be mandatory for high-end content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barachim

Too good might be the right way to call it. I already noticed how I barely got it to break against the mini-bosses in the very first new Dungeon. It was basically me just throwing away 3000MP because it wouldn't break. So I just said screw it, and took the damage.

---

That's because you are using it wrong. You are supposed to use it during pulls for mitigation, because it's certainly will break. If you want to use it during boss fights, use it only for tankbuster without extra mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

That is simply not true, DRK now has the best AoE damage of all tanks, thanks to Flood of Shadow/Darkness being weaved between Quietus Delirium spam, on top of Salted Earth. (not to mention Abyssal Drain being oGCD)
The Blackest Night also is the best self mitigation in the game, not only for being spammable, but also completely DPS neutral while increasing your effective HP by 1/4 of maximum value.

DRK is just broken in every way, especially in dungeons. I also suspect that DRK is going to be mandatory for high-end content.

---

My healer friend vastly prefers healing other tanks over DRK in dungeons (granted, he has little experience with lvl 80 GNBs so far). TBN is great but it's the only thing we have over other tanks. We have one usable self-heal on a 90s cooldown (useless as a heal outside of dungeon pulls, but that's beside the point), and our two job-specific % damage down CDs are both locked to magic damage, which in dungeon pulls is usually tied to dodgeable AoEs. PAL meanwhile has a whole host of CDs that apply to dungeon pulls, an actual invuln, and an on-demand self-heal that provides at least as much survivability as TBN.

*see thread title*

nah its PLD fault for getting too good

jk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShinShimon

My healer friend vastly prefers healing other tanks over DRK in dungeons (granted, he has little experience with lvl 80 GNBs so far). TBN is great but it's the only thing we have over other tanks. We have one usable self-heal on a 90s cooldown (useless as a heal outside of dungeon pulls, but that's beside the point), and our two job-specific % damage down CDs are both locked to magic damage, which in dungeon pulls is usually tied to dodgeable AoEs. PAL meanwhile has a whole host of CDs that apply to dungeon pulls, an actual invuln, and an on-demand self-heal that provides at least as much survivability as TBN.

---

Basically this. TBN is awesome for dungeon pulls, but we pay for it with a hefty cd on our sustain (AD which only works on aoe pulls), and only having two mitigation cd's for those occasions. I've no experience with other tanks on 80, but on DRK I really do feel a bit... unstable? Unsafe? On AOE pulls. When you put TBN up you have a decent relief window, but when it breaks, your hp becomes a bit spiky. Rampart, Shadow Wall, and AD can somewhat stabilize this period, but the uptime is rather low on those.

You get used to it as a tank, but I can certainly see healers disliking this rotation between our HP not moving at all and then eating ALL the damage at once until TBN comes up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShinShimon

TBN is great but it's the only thing we have over other tanks. We have one usable self-heal on a 90s cooldown (useless as a heal outside of dungeon pulls, but that's beside the point), and our two job-specific % damage down CDs are both locked to magic damage, which in dungeon pulls is usually tied to dodgeable AoEs. PAL meanwhile has a whole host of CDs that apply to dungeon pulls, an actual invuln, and an on-demand self-heal that provides at least as much survivability as TBN.

---

But you are forgetting some stuff. Abyssal Drain is not just a heal, it's free AoE damage and TBN is an oGCD available every 15s (shortest defensive CD of all tanks).
It's true that PLD has HG and Clemency, but the former can only be used twice per dungeon and the latter requires you to stop attacking. They are strong moves with strong costs. TBN has virtually no cost, by other hand.
You can still use your magical CDs in dungeons, but it requires you to analyze what is and what isn't magical damage.

I am not replying to say that DRK has better survivability than a PLD, but DRK is not that far behind. GNB and WAR by other hand, they are completely screwed without healers, WARs at least until Nascent Flash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

You can still use your magical CDs in dungeons, but it requires you to analyze what is and what isn't magical damage.

---

If we're talking about aoe pulls, he's not wrong though. I struggle to recall many aoe groups that have any relevant amount of magical damage in it, effectively making two of our cooldowns pointless in these situations.

But just to be clear, on boss fight situtations I think they're fine as is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lersayil

If we're talking about aoe pulls, he's not wrong though. I struggle to recall many aoe groups that have any relevant amount of magical damage in it, effectively making two of our cooldowns pointless in these situations.

---

Mostly everything with elemental damage is magical, like an Aero, a Fire Breath or Water Attack. While physical attacks are usually punches, scratches, bites, slashes, thrusts... You get the idea.
But then, what else PLD has? They lost Bulwark and Divine Veil doesn't work on yourself. Clemency can save your life, but it comes at a cost of a GCD and potentially a Holy Circle. PoA only works from the front and you need to stop attacking, I wouldn't even call it a viable cooldown. The only real edge is Hallowed Ground, which doesn't come so often. If you are paired with a bad healer, PLD can make it work with severe DPS cost, but it's not really the tank's job to play for two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lersayil

If we're talking about aoe pulls, he's not wrong though. I struggle to recall many aoe groups that have any relevant amount of magical damage in it, effectively making two of our cooldowns pointless in these situations.

But just to be clear, on boss fight situtations I think they're fine as is.

---

Yeah, on bosses DRK feels great. In trash pulls, we spam TBN on cooldown and hope we don't die.

GNB's mitigation needs a buff imo. I feel as though every time I want to pull everything, either in fates or long pulls in a dungeon.. I HAVE to pop 2-3 things. 1 By itself never feels like it is enough, especially when you consider healers getting nerfed a bit. Camoflauge, Aurora, heart of light, and heart of stone need some form of buff. Thank goodness we have the role skill that applies heavy to trash mobs, that really helps more than I expected it to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

If you want to use it during boss fights, use it only for tankbuster without extra mitigation.

---

No, really?! Still didn't break.

im really not having any issues with Mitigation
I havent died to anything like that only me messing up mechanics

camo is somewhat lack luster and Arms length slow is really handy but
its rare i get bellow 20% Hp in trash packs
and i do wall to wall pulls or two groups if i think healer isnt cut out for it

I expect that the average skill level on GNB is going to be on the lower side until the novelty wears off.

You really shouldn't have too much difficulty with wall-to-wall pulls in general. I think the only thing that may have changed is that a lot of mobs on dungeon pulls now have castbars telling you about damage spikes. So a certain amount of timing with your on-demand can be helpful. There are also a few interruptable moves which can make your pulls less fun if you let them get off. Of course, this is just assuming starter gear. You'll very quickly trivialise this by the time you have even a bit of token gear.

I've been hearing a lot of good reports about GNB's AoE potential. It's fairly high damage output for next to no effort. At the end of the day, the main limiting factor on pull size is dps, not mitigation or healing. I suspect that Camo will probably need to get changed at some point (perhaps to a physical version of DM), but that's less of an issue for dungeon content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cosaint

If you are paired with a bad healer, PLD can make it work with severe DPS cost, but it's not really the tank's job to play for two.

---

This last part is is basically the difference. PLD can smooth things out / save himself mostly on demand if the situation requires it, paying for it with dps. DRK baseline is slightly better (albeit a somewhat wonky due to the day and night difference between the TBN and non-TBN moments), but pays for it with having only one sustain skill on a large cd, which you have to save and not burn for dps if you want it for the heal (also the 1 less mitigation cd if we're not counting the minor AOE one).

Overall I would need actual numbers to make sweeping statements, but its a trade-off. A trade-off that I suspect makes DRK better on paper, but in action healers would prefer the other classes due to the more stable damage income.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barachim

No, really?! Still didn't break.

---

Wait, really? You must be one tanky mofo... During leveling I think I've only saw one tank buster that couldn't break TBN. On EX dungeon bosses I imagine it might become an issue as we gear up though.

If TBN doesn't break, it usually means two things:
1) You didn't need to use it.
2) You were invulnerable for 7 out of 15 seconds.

If TBN doesn't break and you actually needed to use it, it means:
1) You pressed the button after the tankbuster cast completed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barachim

No, really?! Still didn't break.

---

If it doesn't break, then you don't really even need it lol.
I'm curious though how it doesn't...even trash mobs have tank busters - in holminster there's those mobs that do big circular tail sweep, it breaks TBN by itself, then some extra damage; guess you're overgeared and synced?

could it be, you're using your TBN a bit too slow?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crescence

could it be, you're using your TBN a bit too slow?

---

This, most likely.

It takes a bit of getting used to the timing of TBN. There's a bit of a "spin up" time for the shield to actually activate, so if you activate it when the tankbuster cast bar is over 50%, there's a good chance it won't be "up" in time for the tankbuster.