What of the Dragons of the First?[Theory]

Recently, I've been treading through the game over again via my alt. Reliving everything that we have done first hand over again. What I have just though of, and am curious of, is where are the dragons of the first? If the world's were split off from ours as said, then their world should also have dragons to the like of Nidhogg, Bahamut, Midgardsormr and Tiamat. At least I believe they'd also have been around. Makes you wonder, after all this time what could have happened to them? Maybe they were all killed off?

I believe Midgardsormr arrived on the Source after the split, so there shouldn't be Dragons on the First, or any Shards, at all. There are Dragons in the Void (Thirteenth) as a result of Xandes pact with the Cloud of Darkness and war on Meracydia.

That said, there does seem to be Dragons on the First... Although I'm not incline to overthink that, because Crystal Tower seems to have been transported to the First at some point (and significantly far back in its history, for that matter), and Crystal Tower did contain some Dragons, so...

I have certain Wild-Ass Theories(TM) about how this happened (and it ties in with why SE is being so adamantly cagey about that final area of ShB), but we'll have to see on Friday.

All we know is that dragons are indeed on the First - you can find one or more in Ill Mheg, in forms we haven't seen before(!).

I'm in the "Midgardsormr arrived after the split, so we shouldn't assume there are dragons there until NEW REVELATIONS." boat.

There are plenty of voidsent and scalekin that could mess with our assumptions.

"Dragons" in FFXIV have so far proven to be not just be any large winged lizard. They are the decedents of Midgardsormr who is an alien to Hydaelyn, the planet.

We do see other large lizards in Dravania, the T-Rexes for example, that are not considered dragons. Until we find out that the large winged lizards on the 1st Shard are decedents of Midgardsormr, then I'm taking the view that they are not "dragons" as they are defined in FFXIV. As it is, they look very different from the dragons on the Source.

There's nothing saying evolution and all the twisted aether won't force changes upon the wildlife. The "Dragons" we've seen so far on the first from the preview footage are absolutely nothing like the "Dragons" from the source. I think just because A Certain Youtuber makes an assumption we shouldn't all jump on what he THINKS is the case. All dragons don't have to come from Midgardsormr, just the first brood and their children.

Well.... The First Brood are all Midgardsormr's kids. So they (and all the dependents of the First Brood) are also decedents of Midgardsormr...

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Well.... The First Brood are all Midgardsormr's kids. So they (and all the dependents of the First Brood) are also decedents of Midgardsormr...

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And in places where they (The first brood.) don't exist, like the first, evolution would still produce something like them. Not all dragons HAVE to come from Midgardsormr.

Except dragons as we know them didn't exist until after Midgardsormr came to the source post split. There would have to be a common ancestor in order for a non midgardsormr dragon to exist and since there isn't one then there's a very low probability that evolution would have made one.

Puks are technichally a small species of dragons that aren't related to Middy, Also some might consider Drakes to be a type of dragon as well.

I mean, it's just semantics at this point: there's Dragons as defined by FFXIV, and dragons as we the players understand them. Everything called a Dragon in FFXIV on the Source is strictly a descendant of Midgardsormr. But there are plenty of things that could possibly fit our real world conception of dragons that don't fit that strict definition, and so would be defined by Eorzeans as scale-kin or pseudodragons or whatever, even if we the players could get away with calling them dragons. The difference is entirely academic, though non-Midgardsormr dragons aren't necessarily going to have any of the capability that "true" Midgardsormr-descended Dragons do.

This may be a "don't think about it too hard" issue, but if the planet was divided into shards, what does that mean for the universe around each shard? In the trailer (and on the Shadowbringers loading screen), we see that after returning the darkness to the First there are stars in the sky. That means either one of two things: either the planet is enveloped in some sort of field so that only its shards exist out of "phase" with the rest of the universe (but you can still see the rest of the universe out there), or the entire universe was "sharded" into different alternate timelines as well.

If it's the former (only the planet is affected), then the question would be what happens when someone from outside the planet crosses the "field" -- do they just end up on the Source automatically and it's like the shards don't exist, or do they get automatically "sharded" into 14 copies? If someone from one of the non-Source shards were to travel to space, would they eventually cross the field and rejoin the "source" universe or would they just basically cease to exist once they exit the affected area? (Is it even possible for inhabitants of Hydaelyn to leave the planet and so be disconnected from its aether, or is the entire universe similarly full of aether?)

If it's the latter (alternate universes), then it would mean that Midgardsormr would actually exist in all 14 alternate timelines, and so he could decide independently to go to the planet in each timeline. The evolution from that point would still be different obviously.

I guess another possibility (aside all the above), since we know the Crystal Tower is the key to cross shards, is that the Allagans may have connected to the First themselves in the distant past. It could be that some experiments from Azys Lla might have been sent over (or made it over accidentally).

In any case, there's definitely a lot we don't know at this point about how all this works.

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Originally Posted by polyphonica

This may be a "don't think about it too hard" issue, but if the planet was divided into shards, what does that mean for the universe around each shard? In the trailer (and on the Shadowbringers loading screen), we see that after returning the darkness to the First there are stars in the sky. That means either one of two things: either the planet is enveloped in some sort of field so that only its shards exist out of "phase" with the rest of the universe (but you can still see the rest of the universe out there), or the entire universe was "sharded" into different alternate timelines as well.

If it's the former (only the planet is affected), then the question would be what happens when someone from outside the planet crosses the "field" -- do they just end up on the Source automatically and it's like the shards don't exist, or do they get automatically "sharded" into 14 copies? If someone from one of the non-Source shards were to travel to space, would they eventually cross the field and rejoin the "source" universe or would they just basically cease to exist once they exit the affected area? (Is it even possible for inhabitants of Hydaelyn to leave the planet and so be disconnected from its aether, or is the entire universe similarly full of aether?)

If it's the latter (alternate universes), then it would mean that Midgardsormr would actually exist in all 14 alternate timelines, and so he could decide independently to go to the planet in each timeline. The evolution from that point would still be different obviously.

I guess another possibility (aside all the above), since we know the Crystal Tower is the key to cross shards, is that the Allagans may have connected to the First themselves in the distant past. It could be that some experiments from Azys Lla might have been sent over (or made it over accidentally).

In any case, there's definitely a lot we don't know at this point about how all this works.

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The question's compounded when you consider that Zodiark is/is in the moon in the same way that Hydaelyn is/is in the planet. Does the moon sit in the same phase-alignment bubble that the world does, or do the shards just not have a moon? We obviously haven't seen the First at night, and it hasn't been in any of the scenes of Derplander parting the clouds.

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Originally Posted by Leaf_Dragoon

Puks are technichally a small species of dragons that aren't related to Middy, Also some might consider Drakes to be a type of dragon as well.

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Drake's are descendants of midgardsormr, and I think Puks are too. The vast majority (if not all) dragons seen in heavenward are either Nidhogg or Hraesvelgars brood, and any dragons seen before that (I.e merycidian dragons) are either bahamuts brood or tiamats brood.

This isn't 100% confirmed I don't believe, but we can make heavy assumptions. Think of them like the legions of the garlean empire, many different types, all under one leader

Neither drakes nor puks are dragons; they are scalekin that, when seen with the Horde, were minions subjugated by dragon magicks and forced to serve as cannon fodder.
(Note, however, that the puk model is occasionally modified / repurposed for young quadrupedal "shield / lesser dragons" like the Vigil heir.)

5.0 Preliminary notes Spoiler

https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/d6...png?1561533396

Either that's a dragon or convergent evolution is being taken to some unbelievable levels here.

People need to get it out of their head that all "dragons" need to come from Midgardsormr. This is factually incorrect. Different aether, environments, lack of calamities would let things evolve at their own pace on the other shards that exist within the different dimensions surrounding the source that house them. Not alternate universes. Let's not parrot the theory of a youtuber. Besides, if what Solus has said is true, Hydaelyn is not the Mother Crystal and we can't trust what either of them have to say until we get the whole story. I hope that mount is the trial mounts for the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Starblessed

People need to get it out of their head that all "dragons" need to come from Midgardsormr.

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Easier said than done when we've only ever been told that Midgardsormr came to Hydaelyn "at the beginning of (assumed to be post-sundering) time" with seven eggs and all true dragons (in the FFXIV sense) are descended from his first brood. This was reiterated very recently in the Omega story arc, where Cid dubbed Midgy, "the ancestor of all dragons on Hydaelyn." Again, that doesn't mean scalekin don't exist in all dimensions; they probably do. And dragons could, as well. BUT we'd need official content to bridge the gap, not assumptions based on screenshots.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Neither drakes nor puks are dragons; they are scalekin that, when seen with the Horde, were minions subjugated by dragon magicks and forced to serve as cannon fodder.
(Note, however, that the puk model is occasionally modified / repurposed for young quadrupedal "shield / lesser dragons" like the Vigil heir.)

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This actually has me wondering about the impact Dragons have had on the evolution of scalekin on the Source... They've essentially domesticated them, compare it to something like the real world example of wolves and dogs... Their evolution was controlled as a result, but on the Shards? Potentially not the case, who knows what they could have evolved into with no "higher" species exerting any pressure on them. Puks in particular (4 legs, 2 wings) could easily have evolved to fill the Dragon shaped niche that, well... Dragons took on the Source... Essentially, the role of "apex" winged scalekin predator was filled by aliens on the Source, so the native winged scalekin species never evolved to fill that niche, but they easily could have on the Shards.

Heck, going back to the wolves/dogs idea, Puks might have been a whole lot more draconic in the past, but years of inbreeding by the Horde resulted in what we see today. Puks are essentially the Pugs of the scalekin world... Puk... Pug... Coincidence?! Absolutely.

That said, my money is still on the simply answer; Crystal Tower. There very much does seem to be a dragon egg sitting in Il Mheg, but "Why are there Dragons on the First?" is kind of overshadowed by "Why is Crystal Tower on the First?" IMO, and I imagine the later answers the former.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Easier said than done when we've only ever been told that Midgardsormr came to Hydaelyn "at the beginning of (assumed to be post-sundering) time" with seven eggs and all true dragons (in the FFXIV sense) are descended from his first brood. This was reiterated very recently in the Omega story arc, where Cid dubbed Midgy, "the ancestor of all dragons on Hydaelyn." Again, that doesn't mean scalekin don't exist in all dimensions; they probably do. And dragons could, as well. BUT we'd need official content to bridge the gap, not assumptions based on screenshots.

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We have to remember to not take the words of a young mortal man whose knowledge of history is severely skewed and limited because the mere existence of the calamities utterly annihilate historical records, as it currently stands Hydaelyn is NOT what we've been lead to believe she is. And she's lied to us before. I doubt much thought will go into it but the dragons on the first, be they scalekin evolutions or primordial dragons native to the planet before the sundering, look cool.

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Originally Posted by Starblessed

People need to get it out of their head that all "dragons" need to come from Midgardsormr. This is factually incorrect. Different aether, environments, lack of calamities would let things evolve at their own pace on the other shards that exist within the different dimensions surrounding the source that house them. Not alternate universes. Let's not parrot the theory of a youtuber. Besides, if what Solus has said is true, Hydaelyn is not the Mother Crystal and we can't trust what either of them have to say until we get the whole story. I hope that mount is the trial mounts for the expansion.

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I mean, if you've got Scalekin on the First that look like dragons, act like dragons, and do pretty most of the things that a dragon does, you CAN call it a dragon.

You can also call a dolphin a fish. It's shaped like a fish, it swims like a fish, it eats fish like a fish. But if you call it a fish, you're still wrong, for a variety of biological reasons. The same goes for dragons on the source compared to "dragons" on the First.

In the world of FFXIV, the category of creatures known as "dragons" are defined as lizard-like aliens living among us (or descendants of lizard-like aliens living among us). There may be other creatures, voidkin or scalekin who LOOK like dragons, but they are still voidkin or scalekin, not dragons. There will very likely be dragon-like creatures on the First, but aside from some that may have tagged along with the Crystal Tower, they will not be true dragons - just dragon-like scalekin and voidkin. They will likely not be nigh-immortal, for instance, and they will likely not reproduce asexually as true dragons do.

Of course, for all the locals are concerned, they might as well be true dragons, since they are the only dragon-like creatures they will have ever seen!

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

5.0 Preliminary notes Spoiler

https://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/d6...png?1561533396

Either that's a dragon or convergent evolution is being taken to some unbelievable levels here.

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There's always the chance that mount comes for the Source.

And anyway, convergent evolution has had some pretty impressive results IRL. Nalien's point also seems relevant: there is a clear ecological niche for Dragons on the Source, and if they're absent on the First, something else could easily step in and take on the traits that Dragons used to fill their niche. There'd just be some fundamental differences, such as lacking the aether-filled eyes. Same shape, but different substance.

Honestly what is the issue here ?

That dragons can hop dimensions?

we've seen it happen during omega story
it would explain why not all of Midgardsormr's children were enslaved by the allagans

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Originally Posted by fay2

That dragons can hop dimensions? we've seen it happen during omega story

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Wait, when?

As far as any developer has ever confirmed, Omega and Midgardsormr crossed the sea of sea of stars, aka the interstellar vacuum, aka a vast expanse of regular old space within the Source dimension, not across any dimensional boundaries. I could also foresee someone pointing to the hydra in World of Darkness or the void dragons on Eureka, but those are both misunderstandings, as well; the former were bioweapons fed to the void by Xande, the latter were dead Source dragons possessed by voidsent.

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Originally Posted by Starblessed

We have to remember to not take the words of a young mortal man whose knowledge of history is severely skewed and limited because the mere existence of the calamities utterly annihilate historical records, as it currently stands Hydaelyn is NOT what we've been lead to believe she is. And she's lied to us before. I doubt much thought will go into it but the dragons on the first, be they scalekin evolutions or primordial dragons native to the planet before the sundering, look cool.

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We have Omega's own words to Midgarsomr being from a different planet, unless you believe he wasn't telling the truth either.

Ehh something to consider though is the word "dragon" itself. Is it in the First the closest translation they have. Or is this closer to a "scientific" meaning. I mean echo is our general translator but who knows if its perfect or gets the point across.

We talking about Dragon or dragon ;)

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

We have Omega's own words to Midgarsomr being from a different planet, unless you believe he wasn't telling the truth either.

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That's not what is being talked about, no one will argue Middy comes from another planet. This thread is about the "Dragons" on the first and the misconception that ALL dragons HAVE to come from Middy, which is false. The descendants of the first brood do, but evolution works wonders. We're less than a couple days away from playing so either we'll get concrete answers in sidequests or it'll be one of those "We just had models to use." things.

Does anyone remember what the name of the Dragoon AF gear is this expansion? I think I heard it somewhere, but can't remember. Might be a clue there.

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Originally Posted by Astrid_Stormborn

Does anyone remember what the name of the Dragoon AF gear is this expansion? I think I heard it somewhere, but can't remember. Might be a clue there.

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Pteroslaver if I remember correctly.

Also Middy and those sired by him being from a different planet does mean something because it means Dragons as we currently know them did not naturally exist on Hydaelyn until after the split. Now it could be that certain Scalekin eventually evolved into something that ended up being called dragons because its fantasy there has to be dragons, but until we get to the First we won't know what the locals there consider them as.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Wait, when?

As far as any developer has ever confirmed, Omega and Midgardsormr crossed the sea of sea of stars, aka the interstellar vacuum, aka a vast expanse of regular old space within the Source dimension, not across any dimensional boundaries. I could also foresee someone pointing to the hydra in World of Darkness or the void dragons on Eureka, but those are both misunderstandings, as well; the former were bioweapons fed to the void by Xande, the latter were dead Source dragons possessed by voidsent.

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Isn't Fay2 mentioning the times where Dragons just... pop in the Interdimensional Rift? Middy comes in at the end of Sigmascape and then the one whose name I won't try to spell saves us at the end of Alphascape. So in a sense, they do storm in another dimension.
Now I'd think the interdimensional rift remains a space created by Omega, on the Source, for its little experience. It's not as wide as Shards for instance. SO perhaps Middy and co kind of already know what Omega is up to and what it is capable of, which allowed them to slide in Omega's DM.

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Originally Posted by Astrid_Stormborn

Does anyone remember what the name of the Dragoon AF gear is this expansion? I think I heard it somewhere, but can't remember. Might be a clue there.

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Nah, we still have a Job quest at Lv80, that presumably rewards the sets, and they've said those quests will be a case of use returning to the Source to check in on the Job NPCs. Unless they've gone for another Heavensward style "Weekly Tomestones buy you AF gear" this time, that would mean the AF sets are still Source based.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Isn't Fay2 mentioning the times where Dragons just... pop in the Interdimensional Rift? Middy comes in at the end of Sigmascape and then the one whose name I won't try to spell saves us at the end of Alphascape. So in a sense, they do storm in another dimension.
Now I'd think the interdimensional rift remains a space created by Omega, on the Source, for its little experience. It's not as wide as Shards for instance. SO perhaps Middy and co kind of already know what Omega is up to and what it is capable of, which allowed them to slide in Omega's DM.

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No need to even overthink it that much. The entrance the the Interdimensional Rift was right there on the Source. I assume Middy was already in the Rift with us anyway, and him "entering" was more a case of him summoning his "true" form to save us. Hraesvelgr on the other hand, I believe said that Middy told him to come get us, and given he drops us off right outside the entrance to the Rift we've been using, I assume he simply used it as well... In both cases I don't see it being a scenario in which they hopped dimensions at all, they merely used the same door we'd be using.

As such, there is no reason to believe dragons have some innate gift for dimension hopping. Once again I'm just going to point at Crystal Tower, because prior to us traveling to the First, that's the only instance we have of something Source side traveling to the First, and a dragon could easily have hopped a ride on that.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Pteroslaver if I remember correctly.

Also Middy and those sired by him being from a different planet does mean something because it means Dragons as we currently know them did not naturally exist on Hydaelyn until after the split. Now it could be that certain Scalekin eventually evolved into something that ended up being called dragons because its fantasy there has to be dragons, but until we get to the First we won't know what the locals there consider them as.

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Actually...

Now that I think of it, if any creature was doing any "evolving" it would have been the true dragons on the Source, rather than the creatures on the First. True dragons, descended from Midgardsormr, are specifically noted to change forms as they grow to adulthood (over a period of thousands of years). Evolution happens on a MUCH broader timescale - at least, if Evolution works in this Fantasy world like it does in ours. Twelve thousand years is FAR too small a time scale to see any meaningful changes in any of the flora or fauna.

However, it could well be that there were dragon-like creatures already existing on all the worlds following the Sundering. On most worlds, they are those worlds' dragons. On the Source, however, Middy's descendants individually developed into similar creatures, and eventually wiped those creatures out, filling their ecological niche.

Which would mean that "true dragons" as folks on the Source would regard them, aren't "true" at all. THEY are the pretenders! The pod people! The dragons on the other worlds are the rightful holders of the name. :D

It's a fantasy game. In order to keep the mobs from having a lack of variety there probably will be dragons, and they will find some weird aether or fantasy reason for the dragons to be there.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Wait, when?.

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exhibit A
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...c102549409.jpg

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Originally Posted by fay2

exhibit A

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But...we took Midgardsormr there, lol. He was with us as his li'l dragonet form as usual, and turned into his BIG BOY NECK form to chomp the Omega shield bubble that was suffocating the WoL. That's not "crossing dimensional barriers".

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Wait, when?

As far as any developer has ever confirmed, Omega and Midgardsormr crossed the sea of sea of stars, aka the interstellar vacuum, aka a vast expanse of regular old space within the Source dimension, not across any dimensional boundaries. I could also foresee someone pointing to the hydra in World of Darkness or the void dragons on Eureka, but those are both misunderstandings, as well; the former were bioweapons fed to the void by Xande, the latter were dead Source dragons possessed by voidsent.

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Midgard also states that he came "to the Source" not "to Hydaelyn" indicating that he came from somewhere other than "The Source" which would make it a shard.

But actually, this question has already been asked to the devs, and they've admitted that they haven't decided if Middy came from another planet or another shard yet.

He came from the dragonstar and that planet was at war with Omega's planet. Shards are superimposed ontop of the source. They're not visitable by traveling through outer space. Midgardsrmr left his world and traveled for centuries before arriving at Hydalyn. He likely didn't come from a shard.

Don't look too deep into pteroslaver. Remember most AF gear names are ripped directly from ffxi.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Pteroslaver_Armor_Set

There's a quest in Il Mheg from an Amaro that has you collect egg shards. When you turn them in, the Amaro asks if we noticed a particularly large egg and then says it belongs to some much larger creature but it's shrouded in mystery, as it existed much before the Amaro arrived.

Maybe the Voeburt people knew of the Dragon but perhaps it's long since died or slain by sineaters?