MNK/PGL : STR vs INT vs ATT

sup monks,

i have been running around testing the effect of str/att/int on pgl WS also mnks

it seems while mnk 30 INT to 30 STR as my AA dmg went up alot with and without fists

on GC leve mobs dmg ~87 > ~110 and with fists ~175 to ~207

also i couldn't figure 32 STRr vs 40 ATT it seems like 32 STR gave me more AA
i didnot look the WS dmg yet also the stats themself work different while PGL as STR seems to give more than int but while MNK it is the other way around.

what i'm here for is to ask u guys about your thoughts anyone noticed something
or anyone already ran a deep tests for that

what is the effect of each of those stats on AA and WS

thx,

General MNK info regarding AF bonuses. Figure I'll throw it in here:

MNK feet = 30% WS recast, over 20% default. No increase to damage. Correction: 6.5% increase to FoW movement speed.
MNK body = 25MP/tic, down from 28MP/tic.
MNK legs = 6-8s recast reduction on Shoulder Tackle

Also, the bonuses to feet and body persist even after the AF is removed, as long as the ability is still running. This means you can activate Fists of Wind, remove body and feet, and get both bonuses as long as FoW persists.

Now, on to stat testing.

Conclusions up front if you just want the good stuff
- STR is more effective than INT on auto-attack damage.
- STR and INT have approximately the same effect on WS damage; STR ekes ahead slightly.
- ATK>STR>INT still...
- ...but you should be more worried about your ACC!

Conditions
Target: Lv.52 Zahar'ak Halberdiers
Fists of Wind for WS recast and lower damage/hit, so the fights last longer
Mugwort Carp for ACC bonus

Data
Here is the first test done with my regular gear, built on the assumption that 1.20 rules for ATK>STR>INT still applied. Note that the Max and CritMax are incorrect due to one attack round (two swings, 1 crit) without FoW slipping through. The average is a better representation of the data: (not pictured: 92.13% hit rate)
http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...QdELEQB2YA.jpg

Here is the second test, cleverly manipulating gear to swap STR and INT values while preserving relevant stats. Note that my Accuracy should read 390, but my food had worn off when I took the shot. We'll call this a "high INT" build, on the assumption that INT is now the better stat: (not pictured 90.49% hit rate)
http://static2.finalfantasyxiv.com/a...QdDpURnLfs.jpg

Analysis
Although the WS count is low, the trend is clear. STR and INT offer a comparable bonus to WS, with STR creeping ahead ~10-20 points in average damage.

With over 4 points of average damage, auto-attacks show STR with a big lead on INT.

I also want to draw attention to my hit rate. My ACC remained the same throughout each test, but my DEX changed 10 points. Although my hit rate adjustment was less than 2%, it adds some additional value to gear like Paragon's Crown. Now that the party bonus "bug" has been fixed, we must re-examine items that provide DEX and ACC bonuses.

Unfortunately, it's too early to answer questions like "how much ACC should I have?" I only know from a recent parse with Myrmidon Princess that 463-468 ACC (depending on whether full PT bonus counts food before or after its applied) will grant 98% hit rate--without Minuet. This is for me a fair guideline when gearing for big things in raids. (Edit: just to be clear, that's 463-468 with PT bonus applied, NOT as it appears in equipment screen).

All said, the biggest change to gearing a PGL/MNK is figuring out how to work in accuracy. The ATK>STR>INT formula still applies, though for maximum optimization it should now read "ACC>ATK>STR>INT until hit rate is capped then ATK>STR>INT."

What I wanna ask, Saladin, is why you leeched our MNK roaming NM when we wiped at 5% instead of helping us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Issachar

What I wanna ask, Saladin, is why you leeched our MNK roaming NM when we wiped at 5% instead of helping us.

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1st - i killed that nm 3 times before u did and helped other after u left , even helped ur group when u got back and i was talking to ur friend Aeo who was in my pt and he was asking me to inv other so i was busy sending invites and looking up the names and u guys brought the mob all the way from the other side till my feet and the spot i was standing at thats like 100R in game distance then wiped right in front of me while i was clearly waiting on to raise my pt members so it was all u and even while i helped u u still called me a d**k anyway i will be the better person and ignore that

2nd this is not the topic unless u have feedback on str vs int vs att

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

General MNK info regarding AF bonuses. Figure I'll throw it in here:

MNK feet = 40% WS recast, over 20% default. No increase to damage. No apparent increase to movement speed.

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I would argue there was a noticable movement speed increase.

thanks Almalexia for the the update
when i looked back at my gear i realized i might be soft capped so i looked this on the forums and on ARC section someone made a deep tests on stats for ARC and found out there is a soft cap at 280 thats pre 1.21 and since patch notes said the stats effect WS more ( cap raised ) so i need to look up the new cap and it feels around 295-300 this is just feeling no deep test yet as i'm going to do that later tonight

my stats were around 300 STR - 520 ATT - 260~ INT ( pre 1.21 gear)
so when i used more STR it didnot give any increase because i was capped and when i used INT my dmg jumped massively because i was way under the "Suggested Soft Cap"

after the patch i got 304 STR - 300 INT - 560 ATT but no matter what i do the damage output feels the same

Have you came across cap number yet or felt like any numbers yet ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Great-Saladin

1st - i killed that nm 3 times before u did and helped other after u left , even helped ur group when u got back and i was talking to ur friend Aeo who was in my pt and he was asking me to inv other so i was busy sending invites and looking up the names and u guys brought the mob all the way from the other side till my feet and the spot i was standing at thats like 100R in game distance then wiped right in front of me while i was clearly waiting on to raise my pt members so it was all u and even while i helped u u still called me a d**k anyway i will be the better person and ignore that

2nd this is not the topic unless u have feedback on str vs int vs att

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Yeah, thats not what what your party members said. Oh well, whatever~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

I would argue there was a noticable movement speed increase.

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it seems the AF is bugged as sometimes increase the mp cost of fists up to 31

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Great-Saladin

Have you came across cap number yet or felt like any numbers yet ?

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In this post, I found there is no cap to STR as in that ARC test you mentioned; at least, no cap that is easily reachable. That was for auto-attack.

You are talking about this in the patch notes, I take it:

Quote:

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[dev1316] The method in which player attributes are calculated into weaponskill attack power has been changed, resulting in an increase in the maximum amount an attribute can affect damage.

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I figured this had something to do with Seiken's findings on ARC that capped attributes between 280-290. But it seems silly to me to set the new cap 10-20 points higher than that (295-300). My auto-attack damage continues to rise with STR well over 300, and the amount of high-attribute gear introduced in 1.21 suggests a cap much higher.

Anyway, for practical gearing purposes, INT should not take priority in any slot other than head (and that's only due to materia). By time you've geared for ACC, ATK and STR, there is no room for INT to fit in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

I would argue there was a noticable movement speed increase.

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I disagree that it is noticeable, because I didn't notice it.

But a bonus does exist!

I did some sprints in the market wards.
FoW with AF:
16.04
16.31
16.31

Avg. 16.22

FoW without AF
17.74
17.75
17.71

Avg. 17.73

No FoW
21.15
21.32
21.17

Avg. 21.21

Without AF, FoW moves you 17.5% faster.
With AF, FoW moves you 24% faster.

The bonus from AF is 6.5%!

I suppose that swift song does not stack on top of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meleena

I suppose that swift song does not stack on top of that.

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Doesn't seem to.

With feets on, i get the same mouvment speed as the brd song.

Hey Alma,

Rare to see testing on official forums, but really glad to see you testing MNK in XIV. Anyways, I can explain why you notice continual boosts in damage from applying STR way past 300+. This has to do with the dual use of STR. For MNK/PGL, STR is the auto-attack and WS modifier similar to PIE on ARC. However, in addition to this modifier, STR is also always a direct boost to ATK at a rough 3:2 ratio meaning 3 STR is equivalent to 2 ATK.

The continual boost in damage you notice well beyond 300+ were hypothesized by Seiken to be due purely to the ATK:STR ratio boost. Prior to reaching whatever the stat cap for job modifiers were, your STR was actually giving you a damage boost for both this ATK:STR ratio boost AND for the job modifier (double bang for your buck). This concept was illustrated in his LNC testing where STR was also the WS/auto modifier for that class.

http://i.imgur.com/86h66.png

In this graph from his LNC testing, you can see that there is a clear linear increase similar to that found in the ARC PIE testing. However, around the supposed cap, instead of no longer doing any damage bonus (as in ARC testing), there is simply a change in the linear curve at a reduced slope. Based on this finding, he said prior to the inflection point (presumed STR LNC cap in 1.20), you were getting STR bonus from modifier and ATK:STR ratio; after the inflection point and presumed cap, you are only getting ATK:STR ratio bonuses.

So the best way to test for a MNK/PGL auto/WS STR cap is actually more complex than ARC PIE testing. For ARC because PIE provides no damage benefit other than being the WS/auto modifier, you can simply look for a point where adding PIE no longer adds damage. However, for other classes where STR is the modifier in question, you have to plot it out and look for the inflection point as Seiken did for LNC.

Thank you, Kaeko. I will keep an eye on the LNC forum for Seiken's testing; looks like he's going to start up again. I'll use his findings as a springboard for my own tests to see if the new cap--if reachable--is consistent across jobs.

In other words, I'll let someone else do the tedious, incremental stat increases manipulation in cap-hunting. :D

In 1.20 we tested that the stat cap was dependent on variables other than your current level. It involves a combination of Base damage and at least 1 other factor that we never really pinned down. So the base caps are probably not going to be the same across the board due to varying base damage maxes on different classes.

Lovely. I didn't have anything to do this weekend anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful

Doesn't seem to.

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Actually, I think FoW and Swiftsong do stack. I was in Darkhold with a group, and the bard cast Swiftsong. I then threw on FoW and proceeded to outrun the other players who just had Swiftsong on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

Actually, I think FoW and Swiftsong do stack. I was in Darkhold with a group, and the bard cast Swiftsong. I then threw on FoW and proceeded to outrun the other players who just had Swiftsong on.

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Were you wearing MNK AF boots?

If so that is probably what made you run faster, not swiftsong.

So am I right in prioritising att over str and int? I was considering swapping out some att for more str to see if it was better.
Currently my str only sits at 242 and my int at 279. Att is 630 without food or stance. With fists of fire and eft steak it goes up to 806.

From what I've heard, str is better than attack til ~290ish then attack is better, no comment on int since its a more varied algorithm, though you should aim for about 290ish into as well.

From my parsing on lvl 52 natalan sentry and kokoroon, I can say a few things about monk

STR does more than INT on AA, however INT does affect skills like second wind.

STR and INT do cap at 280 for AA damage, not sure about skills though since i haven't tested it.

Atk Damage also has a significant change in damage but it does not seem to have a cap since ATK food + mega-str potion gives me over 900 atk and i get a massive damage increase with that boost.

There are a few things I want to test on monk though. One thing is that int seems to work as a sort of magic resist penetration on blm when I fight chimera. I want to test this out on monk as well.

Str gives attack, which is why str never really caps out, though its value diminishes. Int is important beyond AA cap solely for blindside damage wise.

The patch notes stated they raised the caps on stats as well as changed some of their affects in 1.21, 290 was the cap pre 1.21, it is unconfirmed as to what the new cap is as to my knowledge no one has tested it.

[dev1316] The method in which player attributes are calculated into weaponskill attack power has been changed, resulting in an increase in the maximum amount an attribute can affect damage.

looks like weaponskills only, unless there's another part of the notes I missed it in. I'm not sure anyone actually tested WS caps beforehand, just AA caps.

Seiken did on archer, and lancer for that matter. Archer was 280 AA cap and 290 WS cap. Lancer was similar. Basicly pre 1.21 any stat above 290 save strenght for the 3:2 ATK bonus was wasted with respect to damage on all physical damage classes.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...IE-ATK-Testing

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...IE-ATK-Testing

Just a quick question for Almalexia,

I tested the %cooldown reduction with AF boots for Fist of Wind. You said 40% cooldown reduction with boots, 20% without. I found 20% reduction without boots, but only a 30% reduction with the boots. 28s/40s for Aura Pulse and 56s/80s for Howling Fist. Not a big deal, just wondering what is going on.

Thanks,

Seiken~

I had tested DK on patch day since it was an even 60s. Just now I get 48/40s, which is indeed 20/30% as you point out.

I am either crazy, it was 40% at one point, or my timers were off. Probably the timers.