Which DRK was the best

Hello

Since the poll started to get traction I guess someone choose to delete THE WHOLE FUCKING THREAD because the results weren't that positive.

I post again the link



EDIT:


As today the poll is closed here the results



https://i.imgur.com/TZkTQYr.png

I guess you could say, history was unwritten?

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Originally Posted by Giubba

Hello

Since the poll started to get traction I guess someone choose to delete THE WHOLE FUCKING THREAD because the results weren't that positive.

I post again the link https://www.strawpoll.me/18188714

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Wow... censorship much Square-Enix?


I actually had two posts from the old thread detailing what I liked about DRK in Heavensward and what good changes Stormblood had and how to even improve upon those 2 iterations...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Wow... censorship much Square-Enix?


I actually had two posts from the old thread detailing what I liked about DRK in Heavensward and what good changes Stormblood had and how to even improve upon those 2 iterations...

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Same here. I actually preferred SB DRK much more but would have liked if certain things from HW remained...I wonder why they'd delete the thread.

Heavensward Heavensward Heavensward.
The fact that people even voted for Stormblood at all is kind of worrisome to me.

I want HW DRK, but with TBN. (no blood guage, just procced BS with TBN broken)
Also make plunge 20y >.>
done.

Also, why do we still not have a 2s GCD tank or healer yet? (same with ranged)

EDIT:
Since DA+DP and DA+DD took all your MP, and the eva+blind made you avoid so many attacks, it didnt work too well with Blood Price.
So my new idea is to also have Quietus, but it only procs upon evading. (the only time u use AoEs is on trash, and you only pop evasions for reliable mitigation on trash pulls.)
This helps get the missing MP u lost from dodging, and helps make up the lost DPS from using MP on mitigation instead of Abyssal Drain.
Plus DRK didnt have any physical AoEs to help use Blood Bath better, so this almost makes up for that.
(So BS and Q are just procs, you need to set up! omg im in love <3 )

Between I will officially close this poll the 27 and as I said in the other thread (YOU KNOW THE ONE WHO GOT DELETED FOR NO FUCKING REASONS AT ALL) I will make 2 new poll 1 month after Shadowbringers release asking again which iteration of the DRK is the best including ShB this time and another where I will ask to select in which order the iteration are regarded from best to worst

(1) careful of cussing, as someone might report it.
(2) u should have put a "I only played SB DRK and love it" so that it doesnt get lumped in with those who only played SB, and for some reason voted anyways (as they mentioned last thread)

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Heavensward Heavensward Heavensward.
The fact that people even voted for Stormblood at all is kind of worrisome to me.

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People who voted for SB have the critical thinking skills to realize it's HW but even better.

WAR mains didn't like HW DRK so much because there was the embarrassing possibility that you could get outplayed hard by your more skilled co-tank.

DRK thread
literally nobody:
Lyth:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR mains

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I guessing those who voted for SB never had the chance to play HW DRK.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

DRK thread
literally nobody:
Lyth:

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it was a gentle way to say "you" i guess you miss it.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

...

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I simply couldn't resist the urge to deflate you a bit. It's a good thing every so often, especially in your particular case.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

your particular case.

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I don't mind being a good sport about fun banter, but it's like you forget I main both tanks. I liked HW DRK a lot! I'm just not blinded by the nostalgia of having said tank be in the mandatory meta spotlight. Sadly, profile limitations only allow me to list one job as my main.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I guessing those who voted for SB never had the chance to play HW DRK.

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I did, still prefer SB DRK.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Heavensward Heavensward Heavensward.
The fact that people even voted for Stormblood at all is kind of worrisome to me.

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Could be players that started with Stormblood and had no idea what the vanilla Dark Knight was like.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Could be players that started with Stormblood and had no idea what the vanilla Dark Knight was like.

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Haha, I'll admit I'm actually one of those people! But, I've always been a very curious guy so naturally I had to do my research and dig through the internet to see what DRK used to be like at its conception. Long story short, I was pretty blown away.


Comparing Heavensward DRK to SB DRK is like comparing Inner Release to Shb Delirium, lol.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Could be players that started with Stormblood and had no idea what the vanilla Dark Knight was like.

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Nope been around since arr and voted for SB. I can also tell you why. The addition of a second resource to manage with some interplay between mp and blood was a step forward. And yes this means I really liked SB Delirium and think the best post SB release change DRK got was the addition of mp regen to Quietus. I also liked TBN, because I'm a fan of short duration short cd cooldowns that can be used in an emergency and it's ability to shift mp to blood ( and through this giving you the ability to tailor your gcd to phases).The change from a focus of not bottoming out on mp to not overcap was also more to my taste, i prefer punishment by wasting resources to forced breaks (why is going to be demonstrated by ShB DRK). In general i like the flow of resources in SB more than HW, it's much more bursty nature ,outside of bloodprice during aoe in HW, and it's doubling down on making the rotation based mostly on resources ( be it through generating, maintaining or dumping them), made for fun gameplay for me.

And yes i can admit not everything was an improvement, they really shouldn't have overemphasized dark arts this much. They removed low blow, reprisal and dark passenger from the ogcd side and replaced it with more dark arts. While the first 2 are somewhat understandable,with both requiring the drk to mt the boss for full effectiveness ( which is also why bloodprice was nerfed), keeping dark passenger as a better damage per mp but with a cd alternative would have been a good idea.

On the other hand i didn't care much for the removal of scourge, the old delirium and the mp drain on darkside. The nerf to bloopdrice required some getting used to and after the quietus change drks dungeon play was fine again.

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Haha, I'll admit I'm actually one of those people!

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https://i.imgur.com/2NVDlQD.gif

I don't think you can make a fair judgement from reading about an experience viewed through rose-tinted lens.

I'll just reiterate my fav post from the last one, The one from Tactics: War of the Lion.

My favorite Dark knight is the one from Bravely Default.

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Originally Posted by gman1311

My favorite Dark knight is the one from Bravely Default.

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Thats a good one too

Ok....

1. FFT: War of the Lions because of the self-sustain versus higher damage choices
2. Bravely Default: "to hell with you" would be so much better than living dead
3. FF3, FF4, Steiner
4. the Heavensward's DRK lv30-50
5. Stormblood
6. Monty python and the holy grail
7. The batman movies
8. Heavensward drk lv51-60

So, IMO, 3.0 Drk was a total frantic mess that wasted too much energy and movement for very little reward and lacks a lot of the self-sustain and sacrifice of previous incarnations

What is the point of arguing which of the two was better between HW and SB? They both had their flaws and perks and the devs should've looked to both while making the SHB iteration rather than scrapping them altogether. What were the fun parts of HW, why were they removed and how could they be reworked to fit with how the game's changed? Which SB additions were good and what was too simplified? Most importantly, how can all these things be made to work with each other to create a cohesive whole?
You might have a preference, but you gotta admit neither was perfect, no job is.

Bickering about how "you only prefer SB because you didn't play HW" or "people look at HW with rose tinted glasses" doesn't actually help anything, it just makes DRK players look like whiny children who don't know what we want. Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

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This 5.0 mess is actually the logical consequence of what the community asked for.

Let's look at the history of DRK...

In 3.0 we had the automatic mana drain from Darkside and then we had Dark Arts to further spend our mana and give some skills additional effects.

Honestly that automatic mana drain didn't worked too well, I remember situations especially with many add waves, where you simply could not regenerate your mana properly. An in general it was a bit more difficult to play the job. So the Devs thought they should make DRK easier and more accesible. That was their idea for many jobs in SB anyway.

So in 4.0 they removed the automatic mana drain from Darkside and replaced it with a manual mana drain through Dark Arts.

But then the people complained that the job has too much Dark Arts spam and also that the additional effects of Power Slash and Dark Mind were a dps loss. So they removed the Dark Arts effects or gave it also the 140 potency boost.


What is now the logical way to expand on this?

Dark Arts is just a potency boost button now, so why not simly replace it with an actual off-GCD attack?

And the people don't want to spam Dark Arts a lot? Well, there is no way to go back to the automatic mana drain, so what else can they do? They have to reduce the mana gain, otherwise 5.0 DRK will be just the same button spam, just that the button is now called Edge of Shadow instead of Dark Arts.

Oh and Darkside is just a hit it once and then remove it from your hotbar skill? Why not add a timer, so you have to spend some mana once every 30 seconds to keep it up?


What I don't understand is the boring Inner Release copy. And the lack of selfheal. And that stupid magic mitigation only cooldown... and my person gripe are the magic AoE's, we have a giant sword, why can't we use it for AoE attacks?

But the underlying gameplay mechanic is a logical next step after SB. And catering to the people who quit DRK at the beginning of SB would be wrong in my eyes. They should cater to the people who actually play DRK now.

I will admit that HW DRK was a lot of fun and I liked the clear defined strenghts and weaknesses. And that he had physical only mechanics. They put as much care into designing his weakness as they did when they designed his strenght, it didn't felt like an afterthought.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

What is the point of arguing which of the two was better between HW and SB? They both had their flaws and perks and the devs should've looked to both while making the SHB iteration rather than scrapping them altogether. What were the fun parts of HW, why were they removed and how could they be reworked to fit with how the game's changed? Which SB additions were good and what was too simplified? Most importantly, how can all these things be made to work with each other to create a cohesive whole?
You might have a preference, but you gotta admit neither was perfect, no job is.

Bickering about how "you only prefer SB because you didn't play HW" or "people look at HW with rose tinted glasses" doesn't actually help anything, it just makes DRK players look like whiny children who don't know what we want. Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

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What's the point in spending countless hours writing about feedback that will not be taken in ANY kind of consideration ? Because let's be real for "fixing" DRK they should rework it again from the ground up altering skill function and that's something they never did. we aren't talking about changing potency or adding some secondary effect we are talking "Jesus f Christ take the whole class down and rework it again".


And what's so monstrous simply asking which whose the best one of 2 iteration of the same job? Because it's a question that it cannot be dismantled to math and graph and simulation on rotation?
Thanks God that fun it sill cannot be measured like this. There are at least 5 active thread were people are doing exactly that and i think having at least one thread where you can simply say "i like stormblood DRK" or "i like heavensward DRK" without the NEED of explain why, is worthy keeping active.

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Originally Posted by Giubba

What's the point in spending countless hours writing about feedback that will not be taken in ANY kind of consideration ? Because let's be real for "fixing" DRK they should rework it again from the ground up altering skill function and that's something they never did. we aren't talking about changing potency or adding some secondary effect we are talking "Jesus f Christ take the whole class down and rework it again".


And what's so monstrous simply asking which whose the best one of 2 iteration of the same job? Because it's a question that it cannot be dismantled to math and graph and simulation on rotation?
Thanks God that fun it sill cannot be measured like this. There are at least 5 active thread were people are doing exactly that and i think having at least one thread where you can simply say "i like stormblood DRK" or "i like heavensward DRK" without the NEED of explain why, is worthy keeping active.

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Just saying "I don't like this and the job needs a complete rework!" is how you get skills and playstyle totally removed and replaced with an out of the left field copy of IR. People complained about how they dislike DA spam without trying to understand or explain why - so we got DA axed and MP management with it. Not to mention the fact that so many people come here saying they enjoyed HW/SB shows that it did not in fact require a ground-up rework. There already was good stuff to work with, it just needed refinement.

There's a few people here whom explained what exactly it was that they enjoyed and that is good - what I have issue with is the whole "my preferred version was better and you only disagree because you didn't play it!" etc.

It's somewhat amusing when you realise that Dark Arts was probably the inspiration for Shinten, and now Shinten seems to be the inspiration for Edge of Shadow.

There were a few issues with Dark Arts. If you look at most of the Heavensward oGCDs, they were fairly short animation locks that flowed extremely well into the next GCD, creating a nearly seamless stream of attacks. Dark Arts is not. It's a bit like a 'wind-up' to punctuate the fact that the next attack is going to be a big one. So when you're forced to re-apply it after every GCD, it ends up making combat quite choppy. I don't know what the animation locks are like on the new EoS and FoS. I suspect that the 'flow' between GCDs and oGCDs is going to be a major factor in whether I like this rework or not.

The other issue is that with the removal of Darkside's MP drain, you ended up dealing with large swings in MP with a relatively small MP carrying capacity. So there was also this constant pressure to use Dark Arts to keep your MP in check. I think that when you take into account the fact that MP has been standardised to 10k across the board, the rate of MP generation doesn't seem unreasonable. The ability cost makes sense as well - when you factor in the Dark Arts proc and a MP storage capacity of three EoS/FoS, you've got enough space in reserve for burst purposes. I would have liked to have an ability with an MP cost in the 1k range which I could use to "tread water" just shy of max MP, but I think that's a minor point.

I don't really see the main draw of playing the job at the moment, though. The one thing that Heavensward and Stormblood had in common is that DRK felt fast. And now we're faced with a Riddle of Fire style gameplay change. But if we're going to be hitting slower and harder, are we the purpleflames equivalent to WAR's angryflames? There has to be more to it.

It's interesting seeing other iterations of DRK being brought up in this thread, like FFT WotL and Bravely Default. I personally think that FFT had the best representations of PLD and DRK respectively, without them necessarily being named as such. I really like the fact that PLD now has a proper suite of holy themed abilities that would make Agrias proud. I feel that DRK could be significantly be improved on if it actually committed to the resource stealing approach of Gafgarion and the Dark Knight job that was later built off of him in the remake.

I've said this before, but abilities like Bloodspiller and Quietus have the potential to be so much more than just Fell Cleave and Decimate knockoffs. They don't have to have the highest potency. They don't have to have guaranteed Critical Direct Hits attached. Have them steal some HP, have them steal some MP. Create interplay between your HP, MP, and blood.

Do you want to know one thing that a lot of people can agree on? SB DRK in AoE was pretty awesome. Pop TBN, negate some damage, gain some blood. Fuel that blood into Delirium, gain some more MP and blood through Blood Weapon. Use Quietus to convert some of that blood to MP, and steal back some more blood while you're at it. Pour that MP into Abyssal Drain. Too much MP? Blow some off into DA Dark Passenger, or maybe DA Quietus. HP getting a bit on the low side? DA Abyssal Drain, back up to full. But don't worry. TBN is back again, and you're taking no damage. It's an endless alchemy of HP, MP, and blood that flows from one form to another, defying the law of equivalent exchange at every turn. Do you know what was the biggest failing of SB DRK? You couldn't do this in single target.

In fact, I daresay that if you could make this happen in Shadowbringers, even Living Dead wouldn't feel as bad.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

WAR mains didn't like HW DRK so much because there was the embarrassing possibility that you could get outplayed hard by your more skilled co-tank.

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Making something harder to play doesnt mean it will become stronger, just saying. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I don't think you can make a fair judgement from reading about an experience viewed through rose-tinted lens.

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Excuse me sir but you could in 100% experience the gameplay of the job by just looking at the skills descriptions. hehe
We already know how terrible and boring 5.0 DRK is going to be, even though we never played it.

"Do you know what was the biggest failing of SB DRK? You couldn't do this in single target.

In fact, I daresay that if you could make this happen in Shadowbringers, even Living Dead wouldn't feel as bad."

Last three sentences. Why don't they build on what worked? It felt rewarding once you got it down. Omni-tanks leveled DRK just for dungeon content bc it was the king at sustained AoE.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Making something harder to play doesnt mean it will become stronger, just saying. :rolleyes.[/S]

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Well obviously a job shouldn't be harder to play just because. But if a job is more difficult to pick up then there should be a payoff. I think that is what drew many to HW DRK, that high skill ceiling came with added performance, sometimes, above the rest.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I guessing those who voted for SB never had the chance to play HW DRK.

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False. I literally began playing FFXIV again because DRK was released in 3.0 as it's my favorite class and I stuck with it even though I thought it was kind of clunky at times. I preferred SB's version more but there were times I wished certain things from HW remained.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

What is the point of arguing which of the two was better between HW and SB? They both had their flaws and perks and the devs should've looked to both while making the SHB iteration rather than scrapping them altogether. What were the fun parts of HW, why were they removed and how could they be reworked to fit with how the game's changed? Which SB additions were good and what was too simplified? Most importantly, how can all these things be made to work with each other to create a cohesive whole?
You might have a preference, but you gotta admit neither was perfect, no job is.

Bickering about how "you only prefer SB because you didn't play HW" or "people look at HW with rose tinted glasses" doesn't actually help anything, it just makes DRK players look like whiny children who don't know what we want. Try to be constructive instead of fighting over which was better so we can have a set direction to push for, rather than getting stuck with the 5.0 mess.

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I totally agree with everything said here. Although, I'm actually excited about 5.0 DRK and I feel like everyone should chill until they actually get to play with it. Yoshi even stated in one of the live letters that people are already saying certain jobs suck or will fail and they haven't even used them yet. It's like people are saying, "IT'S NOT WHAT WE ASKED FOR, IT SUCKS" without even giving it a chance.

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Originally Posted by Tint

In 3.0 we had the automatic mana drain from Darkside and then we had Dark Arts to further spend our mana and give some skills additional effects.

Honestly that automatic mana drain didn't worked too well, I remember situations especially with many add waves, where you simply could not regenerate your mana properly. An in general it was a bit more difficult to play the job. So the Devs thought they should make DRK easier and more accesible. That was their idea for many jobs in SB anyway.

So in 4.0 they removed the automatic mana drain from Darkside and replaced it with a manual mana drain through Dark Arts.

But then the people complained that the job has too much Dark Arts spam and also that the additional effects of Power Slash and Dark Mind were a dps loss. So they removed the Dark Arts effects or gave it also the 140 potency boost.


What is now the logical way to expand on this?

Dark Arts is just a potency boost button now, so why not simly replace it with an actual off-GCD attack?

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3.0 Dont let MP run out
4.0 Dont let MP cap.

Since MP can cap, this is why more abilities used DA, and why DA was spamable.
But they only created the "Dont let MP cap" because people complained they didnt like running out of MP.

There were plenty of ways to deal with DRK, w/o rebuilding it into its newer play style.

(1) Run low on MP (mostly the DRKs fault) how do you handle surprise adds you werent expecting?
Answer: Learn from your mistake, and next time in the same fight, be ready...
Answer#2: DEVs make unleash weaker, but more enmity, and drastically cut its MP cost. Establishing threat is all unleash is for. DA+DP is the burst AoE dmg, followed by AD for sustain AoE DPS.
Most of what I just said came to be, but they could have lowered the cost of unleash, if they didnt want anything too drastic.
Answer#3: Make an AoE WS. Quietus could have been the eclipse of DRK. Both an emergency AoE option under low to no MP, with a minor MP gain based on the number of targets hit (so as not to be used on bosses) plus stacks with blood bath.

(2) Evasion from DA+DP and DA+DD also hurt MP gains. (The primary clunky design of DRK in 3.0) Do you keep evasion DRK? Do you keep the 75% MP loss?
Clearly only used in add phases. Very hard to pull off mid boss fight, less hard to pull off in trash pulls.
Answer: The above version of Quietus semi counters the MP issues.
Answer#2: Evasions proc an MP gain or DPS increase, to compliment the parry/reprisal system. (including procing a quietus)

(3) Reprisal has to go to all tanks, to homogonize their raid mitigation utility. Anticipation is going to all tanks (for some unknown reason, instead of foresight) Do we get rid of fishing for parry procs for physical mitigation?
Answer: You could keep the Dark Dance, and also have anticipation, since its still good to have both. (even more so if they stack for parry fishing) Followed by a replacement to reprisal. The Blackest Night. Parries trigger a use of TBN in place of reprisal. No DPS loss since there's no MP cost, but no DPS gain from the old reprisals DPS. (TBN could still proc a weaker oGCD attack if broken, so as to try and time it still, or to give a free DA if broken)
Answer#2: Dont keep DD, but anticipation can still do the above, or similar.

The last issues have been dealt with mostly, even you pointed out as much with DM and PS.

I would be fine with a direct dmg version of DA, IF we dont have the interplay of DA on DP and DD. (DP needed an adjustment, so you chose between AoE or single target basically. Only getting the blind on the AoE as well, and a bare bones threat modifier on the DA version. The DA DPS increase shouldnt have been worth it on single target.)

But if most hard/savage content is built around single target, then DA has little use right? Well, yes and no, as some bosses did have adds, and picking between Mp for more AoE, or using CnS for single target DPS ends up being the main decision maker. So it was mostly fine in HW.
Having it effect DM was unnecessary. (unless it could do something towards DPS, but that requires much more reworking)
Having it grant HP drain on AD w/o DPS increase is similar to how it feels rather weak to put on DD as well. (plus u wont really have the MP to do that too much, w/o DD being fixed to not interfere with MP gains)

Anyways, there were plenty of options to fix DRKs clunkiness, and at the same time, give the people (that want easier MP DRK) something to work with.
honestly DRKs MP management wasnt hard at all. Things like extra MP drained on SS in tank stance only works for those who dont leave tank stance, and werent probably very skilled as players. If they werent skilled, spaming unleash instead of AD was more than enough to do what content they did. I even showed people how lazy they could be, by not putting up DS (grit only) only using VIT accessories, and ONLY used flash on trash pulls, no CDs. But I only used Power Slash on bosses. Never had MP issues, never had threat issues, I was just obviously not doing good DPS. A bad player could easily handle HW DRK. The issue is they just didnt like being careful. The current DRK does penalize being careful (capping MP) but they just arent aware of it. You notice you're messing up when you cant AoE on new adds, but they dont notice when they have max MP, and can AoE newly spawned adds, since it seems like they handled the situation just fine.

Hello since today the poll is closed.


Here the results


https://i.imgur.com/TZkTQYr.png


As you can see the overwhelming majority picked Heavensward iteration as the best one.


As stated previously i will re propose this question 1 month in ShB launch and see what will be the result.

I didn't even play DRK in HW and I can already agree it was better back then.... or ya know, more original.

DRK was definitely better in HW. Rather than just spamming DA for almost every attack to avoid capping out on MP, you were instead constantly losing MP so using it was a tactical move on your part. You had to actually think on when it was best to use it...plus it was mostly used for cooldowns, making it more of a defensive option than the offensive option it became in SB (a move which made me hate DA).

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Originally Posted by TheForce

Heavensward Heavensward Heavensward.
The fact that people even voted for Stormblood at all is kind of worrisome to me.

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HW dk was decent but sb was better. the dark arts made us feel like dk. hw felt clunky. shb seems to be the best of both worlds until they kinda shot their selves in the foot by removing dk best feature dark arts. didnt even get a cool aura like in the trailer...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Wow... censorship much Square-Enix?


I actually had two posts from the old thread detailing what I liked about DRK in Heavensward and what good changes Stormblood had and how to even improve upon those 2 iterations...

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Remember that 1000+ post Summoner thread full of good ideas from the HW era? If so, it's existed only in your memories since page 104 or so. Can't have too much constructive criticism in one place, after all! Or, at all, since it wasn't exactly split in its removal.

I've seen some toxic threads shut down. I think, at this point, though, I've seen at least as many civil and highly detailed threads removed as soon as their discussion gets far enough along in the concreteness of listed wants or comprehensiveness in suggested solutions.

To get back to the topic at hand, this is actually a lot more lopsided than I expected it would be. I figured a more 60/40 split, or even closer, and that's coming from someone who ultimately, however slightly, preferred the HW idea of a DRK.

That being said, prior to the Shadowbringers iteration I would have had to ask simply, "Why not both?" We could have returned counterattacks, defensive spending options, and the oGCD diversity all while maintaining DRK's APM and while making even better use of the Black Blood skills.

...Now, instead, I have to wonder, "Why play DRK?"

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Originally Posted by guardin

shb seems to be the best of both worlds until they kinda shot their selves in the foot by removing dk best feature dark arts. didnt even get a cool aura like in the trailer...

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What really bugs me about ShB version is the Soul Eater combo ad nauseum. I thought they were past this when the added new combos to PLD in HW.