A RDM Equivalent to BLM Triplecast

So, RDM Get's Dualcast, yes, it's a unique trait that gives it it's special identity, but, I was thinking what could be a fun way to incorporate a "Triplecast."

*Tweaked Chainspell, to be a bit different then let's say a "Triplecast"; this inspired by a fan's [Archwizard] reply to this post. I'll keep original below, since it would still be neat to cast a finisher without having to do a combo.

New Ability Rework: Chainspell [Instant/60s] Doubles Spellcasting while reducing Mana Accumulation by 50%.

• Duration: 10s

[What does this mean?] Pew, pew, pew spell firing. It doubles the spell casting; therefore, it gives the Red Mage a 10s window of being able to just cast spells. It will lower the Mana accumulation, to balance it out. So if you do a basic rotation: Veraero >> Veraero >> Veraero / Verthunder >> Verthunder >> Verthunder = 15/15 to White / Black: or alternate between the two.
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Top Is rework

Bottom is original

New Ability: Chainspell [Instant / 60s] While Black and White Mana Meter are at equal values of 100/100 the Red Mage can instantly cast: Verflare >> Verholy >> Scorch.
Additional Effect: Verfire and Verstone Ready
Additional Effect: Composure
Doubles White and Black Meter Accumulation
Duration: 10s

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New Trait: Composure
Doubles the accumulation of both White and Black Mana.

If done correctly, a Red Mage could do this:

Verfire >> Verthunder [40 Black]
Verstone >> Veraero [40 White]

Manafication [80/80] >> BOOM Combo
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This new ability could potentially be a reason to keep our meter to 100/100.

The other option maybe if Red Mage keeps meter at 100/100.

Manifestation [Instant / 2.5s] Consumes 50 Black Mana and 50 White Mana and makes Verflare and Verholy to hit enemies within range.

Additional Effect: Verflare Deals fire damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 350 for the first enemy, 10% less for the second, 20% less for the third, 30% less for the fourth, 40% less for the fifth, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.

Additional Effect: Verholy deals holy damage to all nearby enemies with a potency of 350 for the first enemy, 10% less for the second, 20% less for the third, 30% less for the fourth, 40% less for the fifth, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.

Thanks for reading ahead of time! And what do you think?

Pat out

My reason for keeping my meter at 100 when not fighting bosses, is I can spam spells without having to focus on my gauge. I can focus and fill it up properly, but I don’t like having to all the time lol

But RDM already has Dualcast... like, every other spell.
Triplecast is a cooldown.

No, triplecast is "unique" to blm, dualcast is plenty for RDM i think.
Only times i bring up my meter to 100/100 is if i want to fit 2 finishers on one embolden

I think being able to cast Scorch after VerFlare/VerHoly is already a form of Chainspell. If anything when we go from lvl 80 to 90 we'll get a Chainspell trait that allows the casting of VerFlare or VerHoly after casting the other followed by Scorch.

I think the idea in the OP goes right past giving us Triplecast and tries to make us into full-on Black Mages.

I mean, overcapping your Mana lets you cast three spells of at least 600 potency each, in a row? And makes it easier to do again? You would never want to melee combo again.

Though the idea of a Triplecast has reminded me of a neat idea I once heard from Zynest: Just give us our own version of Light Speed, which reduces all cast times by 3 sec. Verthunder and Veraero become our shortcasts, and our usual shortcasts become instants to throw while moving.
As imbalanced as that may sound at a glance, it would really only add about 30-50 potency and 2-5 mana to each of our usual shortcasts.
Could even call it Chainspell, since it would let us chain our normal longcasts.

Only thing is with Reprise now covering our need for an instant ranged attack, it may not have such high value for us in the latter position.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I think the idea in the OP goes right past giving us Triplecast and tries to make us into full-on Black Mages.

I mean, overcapping your Mana lets you cast three spells of at least 600 potency each, in a row? And makes it easier to do again? You would never want to melee combo again.

Though the idea of a Triplecast has reminded me of a neat idea I once heard from Zynest: Just give us our own version of Light Speed, which reduces all cast times by 3 sec. Verthunder and Veraero become our shortcasts, and our usual shortcasts become instants to throw while moving.
As imbalanced as that may sound at a glance, it would really only add about 30-50 potency and 2-5 mana to each of our usual shortcasts.
Could even call it Chainspell, since it would let us chain our normal longcasts.

Only thing is with Reprise now covering our need for an instant ranged attack, it may not have such high value for us in the latter position.

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To me, it would be more of a burst mode: bc before I enter a boss in a DNG I generally have 100/100. But let's say I'm doing a Raid tier boss; I generally save up around 80/80 each element, do my rotation, then do a second rotation with Manafestation. So I'd do a double rotation within that's what?

*With displacement not Engagement Potency calculations btw

Potency Rotation: 1830 + 1830 = 3660

My proposed Chainspell + Rotation every 100/100 + 60s: 1900 + 1830 = 3730

Your proposed idea of a version of Light Speed; that would be super neat! It would be a mode that would make us be hyper casters which would be so much fun! I do hope they do something along those lines.

Thanks for the replies, and I appretiate the feedback on the thought of Chainspell everyone

Dualcast + melee combo + verflare + scorch and you can use 6 instants row. It is kind of "triplecast".

As much as I want a variation of Chainspell in this game, I'd rather have a RDM Lightspeed + Presence of Mind than... whatever this is.

Melee combo into Verflare/holy and Scorch is already RDM's burst.

I pretty much still want the version of chainspell I came up with, that was essentially Rapidfire. 6 instant cast spells at a 1.5s GCD, but with a damage penalty of 20-30%. It’s a net boost thanks to being able to spam veraero/thunder. The penalty is there to offset the effective 60% damage boost from the gcd change alone.

I don't get the point?
Unless you want to rework RDM's rotation, which is another topic in its own right.
BLM's triple cast is a utility tool, because movement is much more "dangerous" DPS wise than it is for RDM (or SMN).

A RDM can move quite easily if you know how to use your tools and benefit from them.
Corps à corps and Displacement are straightforward. They come back frequently, you just need to "aim" where you want to land in the case of Displacement.
Dual cast : you can freely move during one GCD. Add a Swiftcast (and slide cast on the first GCD) and you have a fairly comfortable window to move with no DPS loss.
Reprise : the newest addition to RDM, a ranged Weaponskill (so it's instant, you can use it while you run). We don't have final potencies but 300 is quite good for its low Mana cost.
So a slide cast > dualcast >swiftcast > Reprise gives you 3 full GCDs to move (7.5 seconds roughly) while keeping DPS uptime. That's enough to cover any distance I guess.

Although RDM's strength is that you can move once every two GCDs so planning your movements is far easier than any caster.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I don't get the point?
Unless you want to rework RDM's rotation, which is another topic in its own right.
BLM's triple cast is a utility tool, because movement is much more "dangerous" DPS wise than it is for RDM (or SMN).

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I'd argue that Triplecast is also a small DPS boost, since more than one spell in BLM's arsenal has a longer cast time than its GCD, and even one second faster cast time can mean the difference in losing a Polyglot charge.

But I agree, RDM has a lower value of necessity for additional tools to render spells instant for movement phases. Non-zero value, still higher value to RDM than SMN, but significantly less than BLM.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I'd argue that Triplecast is also a small DPS boost, since more than one spell in BLM's arsenal has a longer cast time than its GCD, and even one second faster cast time can mean the difference in losing a Polyglot charge.

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Well, yes in that specific case of course.
But I think it's a broader issue of casters and movement. Each DPS caster has their own strengths and weaknesses on this topic, and their own tools. DPS uptime comes from integrating this element in the rotation too. In a way, I fear that it would be walking the path of over simplifying things. The addition of a generic "press here if you need to move" button to each caster would be a bit underwhelming, wouldn't it?
I like the idea of skill gap being in this kind of little elements (just like "good" RDM will keep using Displacement instead of Engagement and stuff)

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Well, yes in that specific case of course.
But I think it's a broader issue of casters and movement. Each DPS caster has their own strengths and weaknesses on this topic, and their own tools. DPS uptime comes from integrating this element in the rotation too. In a way, I fear that it would be walking the path of over simplifying things. The addition of a generic "press here if you need to move" button to each caster would be a bit underwhelming, wouldn't it?

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I 100% agree -- at least as far as each caster dealing with movement periods in their own ways, giving them their own identities. Otherwise you may as well remove Ruin II and just make Triplecast a role action.
Of course this does mean that BLM is kind of the odd man out in this regard, I think, since its movement has been woefully crippled without popping cooldowns that may also have been used for raw DPS, but hopefully some of the changes in Shadowbringers have addressed that to an adequate degree.

That said, while I do agree with such things as adding to a job's skill ceiling, it's a very delicate balance, particularly when it involves creating new tools where the entire fact of their availability to players can determine the player's skill.
For instance, to use your example of Engagement, while it is a "safer" option than Displacement, it could be considered something of a DPS trap tool by some players (particularly ones who think they're better than they really are or want to copy top-parsers, and will persist in using Displacement instead, continuing the trend out of spite), and "optimal" players will find ways to use it as little as possible (as you yourself have demonstrated); same case with Scathe for BLM. In both cases there have been (already!) cries for outright replacement.
On the flip-side, tools like Apocatastasis were primarily used by high-end players at very specific points in a combat engagement, and relatively ignored at lower points in play (which I expect is technically also true of Addle, save for the new players who think role actions are supposed to be part of their rotation and spam it on-cooldown alongside Drain and Break).
When you have tools that aren't used across all skill levels, it can feel something of a wasted space to one group or another. That's what makes something like Triplecast particularly appealing, since "optimal" players will find creative uses to get the most out of it and everyone else can still get their money's worth without feeling a loss.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

(as you yourself have demonstrated)

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I'm still so proud about this lol.

You have a point indeed, but then we enter the debate of job identity and skill gap. Role actions are a little bonus, and using them only makes a difference in challenging content (although a proper timed Apocastasis is always welcome, yet redundant most of the time because the tanks use their own CDs). I'm not sure there's so much to balance there, I like the idea of providing a set of tools and it's up to the player to understand them and use them efficiently. Otherwise, it's either hard to shine with those or you essentially lose the micro-challenges in rotations and individual jobs. I think it's the underlying fear of healers right now, seeing how their kits are getting similar.
Back to casters, I like the idea of having general "Casting challenges" (MP management, movement, utility, burst) but individual solutions, that's what makes a job enjoyable and special in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Back to casters, I like the idea of having general "Casting challenges" (MP management, movement, utility, burst) but individual solutions, that's what makes a job enjoyable and special in my opinion.

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Which does make the changes to Aetherflow and Lucid Dreaming somewhat unfortunate, since it means SMN and RDM now must rely on the same method for MP management, forcing SMN to take a step backward and preventing an 'individual solution' from being added to the RDM (such as recovering via the use of melee abilities).

But to roll back to the original topic, that doesn't in itself preclude RDM from getting a Triplecast-esque ability in its kit, provided it serves either a different function completely (like Dualcast itself does) or a similar function in a different way (like Light Speed).
Rather, I would more question what the purpose of such a skill would be in RDM's kit, since giving Triplecast to RDM wouldn't necessarily provide more mobility (as RDM already has adequate tools for that), but rather more burst (allowing you to chain Verthunder/aero). It's not really a cooldown that can be argued for RDM on the grounds of personal utility.

So, build up to 100/100 and then your rotation becomes Verflare->Verholy->Scorch, and because your mana is still 100/100, your rotation remains Verflare->Verholy->Scorch as a literal 1-2-3 combo?

Sounds awful.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

But to roll back to the original topic, that doesn't in itself preclude RDM from getting a Triplecast-esque ability in its kit, provided it serves either a different function completely (like Dualcast itself does) or a similar function in a different way (like Light Speed).
Rather, I would more question what the purpose of such a skill would be in RDM's kit, since giving Triplecast to RDM wouldn't necessarily provide more mobility (as RDM already has adequate tools for that), but rather more burst (allowing you to chain Verthunder/aero). It's not really a cooldown that can be argued for RDM on the grounds of personal utility.

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Actually I think Reprise is that Triple cast like ability. Essentially, you sacrifice / delay a melee combo in order to move. Some people will try to play around Dual cast, Swiftcast etc, and some might choose Reprise (which has an impressive 300 potency for now).

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Actually I think Reprise is that Triple cast like ability. Essentially, you sacrifice / delay a melee combo in order to move. Some people will try to play around Dual cast, Swiftcast etc, and some might choose Reprise (which has an impressive 300 potency for now).

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Reprisal is definitely RDM equivalent to Triple Cast (albeit more simple to use as it requires no CD management)
As said, RDM already have enough mobility with dual cast + Swiftcast. The addition of Reprise is, I think, mostly aimed for less skilled players.
In any case, it will be better to delay your melee combo than do nothing for an entire gcd.

Strictly speaking, at higher level of player I would say Triple Cast is better because you can use it both for mobility and a slight dps boost (around a third of a FireIV... nothing fancy but it's better than nothing). But having coached many BLM, I can tell you most have no clue on how to use it and how to properly manage their proc for mobility.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Reprisal is definitely RDM equivalent to Triple Cast (albeit more simple to use as it requires no CD management)
As said, RDM already have enough mobility with dual cast + Swiftcast. The addition of Reprise is, I think, mostly aimed for less skilled players.
In any case, it will be better to delay your melee combo than do nothing for an entire gcd.

Strictly speaking, at higher level of player I would say Triple Cast is better because you can use it both for mobility and a slight dps boost (around a third of a FireIV... nothing fancy but it's better than nothing). But having coached many BLM, I can tell you most have no clue on how to use it and how to properly manage their proc for mobility.

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In the case of RDM, I agree that a Triple Cast would be more efficient, and as I explained a bit above, I think the best option will be the (displacement /) slidecast / dualcast / (swiftcast), because you won't delay your melee combo and "waste" Mana on movement.

Reprise would be (yet again, like Engagement) a very niche weaponskill in the situation where you need to run around like a headless chicken for some kind of mechanic (I think about the tracking lasers on the 2nd boss of the violet tides dungeon for instance, but longer) but result in a DPS loss if used outside of those situations I guess.

Now maybe the new fights will require caster to move a lot so it could find a use, but right now I don't see it working as efficiently as a SMN Trance or a BLM Triple cast / proc management.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Reprise would be (yet again, like Engagement) a very niche weaponskill in the situation where you need to run around like a headless chicken for some kind of mechanic (I think about the tracking lasers on the 2nd boss of the violet tides dungeon for instance, but longer) but result in a DPS loss if used outside of those situations I guess.

Now maybe the new fights will require caster to move a lot so it could find a use, but right now I don't see it working as efficiently as a SMN Trance or a BLM Triple cast / proc management.

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The thing about E. Reprise is, it can be used to affect a DPS gain. Both the 110 second "Standard Rotation" and the 120 second "Sync Rotation" make use of it to avoid overcapping mana.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The thing about E. Reprise is, it can be used to affect a DPS gain. Both the 110 second "Standard Rotation" and the 120 second "Sync Rotation" make use of it to avoid overcapping mana.

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Ah thanks for the link! :)
Interesting, from what I gather... but it somehow further locks away the use of Reprise for movement that we are discussing previously! It will all depend on raid encounters too.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The thing about E. Reprise is, it can be used to affect a DPS gain. Both the 110 second "Standard Rotation" and the 120 second "Sync Rotation" make use of it to avoid overcapping mana.

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Thank you very much for this link, I've been trying to explain Reprise's benefits for the very same purposes for ages now to others who have been arguing it's a DPS loss to ever use (or that you've already lost DPS by the time you're in a situation to use it).

Barring the necessity of similar tank and healer tools, I don't think any job really needs an equivalent to what another job has re: how it gets its damage out because they should still feel different from each other while executing actions for the same purpose. AoE is AoE for example, but I don't want every caster to have an umbral heart equivalent to fire off multiple heavy-hitting spells.

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Originally Posted by KaerisKlyne

Barring the necessity of similar tank and healer tools, I don't think any job really needs an equivalent to what another job has re: how it gets its damage out because they should still feel different from each other while executing actions for the same purpose. AoE is AoE for example, but I don't want every caster to have an umbral heart equivalent to fire off multiple heavy-hitting spells.

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It's not properly an equivalent but more a tool for the same purpose (or somewhat)

Caster optimisation, beside the rotation, mainly revolves around being able to keep good casting uptime while doing mechanic. All 3 jobs have different means to do so,
RDM has Dual Cast and Reprise
BLM has Thundercloud proc, Firestarter and Triple Cast as well as Xenoglossy next xpac
SMN has Ruin2 and DWT for instant cast

Some have dual functions (Dual cast is both a mobility and dps tool, so is DWT). But in the context of "uptime" these are your tools and they serve the same function, keeping "uptime"

However in practice they don't operate nor feel the same (thus calling that homoginisation is a bit weak, it's like saying all caster are homogenised because they have casting time of 2.5s)

So I wouldn't say "reprise was introduced because it had no equivalent to Y tool", but more "RDM had issue with extended movement, (as well as overcapping mana), here is a tool to adresse the issue."

There are things all job within the same role need to have to be able to properly

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

It's not properly an equivalent but more a tool for the same purpose (or somewhat)

snip

There are things all job within the same role need to have to be able to properly

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An equivalent...is literally a tool for the same purpose.

Each caster already has the tools it needs to do those same things (albeit new SMN is actually a little stricter where movement is concerned if you don't want a big potency loss in output). RDM doesn't need a pseudo-Triple because it has that in Dualcast and Reprise, and if that's not enough, it's time to look at either improving job skill or getting a better handle on fight timings.