Feed back for the devs and a compromise from the community.

So every interview just about Yoshi-P speaks of really cool things they'd like to do, but couldn't do because it would slow down the content they push out to us. So with that I have a question to us as a community.

Would you be willing to have an expansion with less upfront content, but more back end and quality of life updates.

They said it would be an expansion worth of effort to go in and fix the code and servers to really do the cool stuff they wanna do in the future.

I would be okay with that! We could maybe not have a 24 man on expansion, or maybe not as many beast tribes. We would have to make concessions, but I think for the game's future? It would be worth it.

I think the correct way is waiting until SE expands the Dev team, because FFXIV is growing, and they will need to hire more as the game profits more.

This is the kind of decision the community absolutely should not be trusted with. There is a no win here.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

I think the correct way is waiting until SE expands the Dev team, because FFXIV is growing, and they will need to hire more as the game profits more.

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Issue is? FFXIV is a constant money maker for Square Enix but that money goes to other projects.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Issue is? FFXIV is a constant money maker for Square Enix but that money goes to other projects.

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Proof?
Do you really think the budget is the same as ARR? Please.

They can higher a company to handle the coding for them. This will allow the current dev team to focus on patch cycles without delaying them.

Yoshi-P stated in many interviews "XXX can be done if we had more staff."

we dont decide anything, they do. In the interview I saw, yoshi said himself that he wants to keep the updates/patches how they were before and that they discussed it. So its already decided.

If it didn't cost as much as a stand alone game, then sure. Expansion selling points are the content it comes with, and if it doesn't come with much, then I would want to pay less.

Not only that but no matter what content they choose to "cut", the community will throw a bitch fit over it anyway.

1. The backend code would always not be ideal for many things, even if they spent an expansion updating it.
2. They could hire a team to address each narrow issue people have, and the community would still find more.
3. Solving QoL issues is not simple. Your solution might cause problems elsewhere like whack-a-mole.
4. Sacrificing raids and dungeons for QoL updates is not $$$. We can't blame them for seeking $$$.
5. Hiring more staff and outsourcing more has been occuring with each expansion. The credits in 4.5 like doubled since 4.0!

I dont trust the community as far as I can thump them lol but for me I'd rather they focus on QOL especially now while SDB is still hot.

Fix that spaghetti code lol

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Originally Posted by Yeol

They can higher a company to handle the coding for them. This will allow the current dev team to focus on patch cycles without delaying them.

Yoshi-P stated in many interviews "XXX can be done if we had more staff."

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Outsourcing is what destroyed 1.0

Just.. saying.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Outsourcing is what destroyed 1.0

Just.. saying.

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Among many....MANY other things lol

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Proof?
Do you really think the budget is the same as ARR? Please.

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There is no official source on this one, but it has been a popular rumor amongst the community. Not that the budget isn't growing per expansion, but that its not growing linearly with the players and money the game brings in. Source of the rumor seems to be mostly YoshiP's ramblings about lack of resources when spagetti code comes up.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

If it didn't cost as much as a stand alone game, then sure. Expansion selling points are the content it comes with, and if it doesn't come with much, then I would want to pay less.

Not only that but no matter what content they choose to "cut", the community will throw a bitch fit over it anyway.

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You would be getting your value from the back end changes, just because we dont get a 24 raid let's say and a new beast tribe wouldn't mean the QoL stuff and engine changes wouldn't be worth 30 bucks alone.

You'd never get a consensus on what QoL things would be worth delayed content. So no, I'd rather them focus on the new things and add the little things as time allows.

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Originally Posted by Aramina

You'd never get a consensus on what QoL things would be worth delayed content. So no, I'd rather them focus on the new things and add the little things as time allows.

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...I imagine you'd also never get a consensus on what content to delay - remember: This is a theme park MMO and not everyone plays every content. Most people actually dont bother with certain aspects of the game at all - for someone who does do everything, missing one piece of content might not be a huge deal.
But what about the people who are only doing a fraction? If you're only running dungeons and 24-man-raids you suddenly lost like 50% of whats intresting to you.
If you're not into instances to much and there are no beast tribes... what to do?

Besides certain content - like raids and beast tribes etc. - giving an incentive to log in daily or at least weekly. Doing away with that in order to introduce some QoL at some point...? Doesnt seem like a good idea...

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Would you be willing to have an expansion with less upfront content, but more back end and quality of life updates.

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Honestly, I feel like we did that with this expansion. Fewer dungeons compared to Heavensward, fewer new gear models introduced compared to Heavensward (that aren't from Mog Station), technically fewer jobs if you want to be REALLY nitpicky, and fewer incentives to play the game more regularly from start to finish. In exchange though, we got things like the glamour dresser (with a doubled storage capacity and extra plates on the way), the world visit system and other enhanced cross-realm systems, ultimate fights to make the tryhards happy, and increased inventory storage on multiple levels via extra bag slots and the chocobo saddlebag to make crafters and gatherers happy. Pretty sure we also got an upgraded back end to allow for some of the battle changes for Stormblood as well.

If anything, I feel like we should be asking the opposite question: would we be willing to have an expansion with less quality of life adjustments, but more overall content?

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Originally Posted by JunkhogMakison

Among many....MANY other things lol

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Most of the problems stemmed from the fact that not only was it outsourced, it was outsourced to several different companies who really didn't have any knowledge or stake in the FF name. Chocobos were "horsebirds" because the companies who wrote the script had bad translations to go off and no education as to the lore. Maps were repetitive as hell because they were outsourced to a company that cut and pasted geometry to fulfill reqs, monsters were recycled assets. Even the engine I think was licensed from another company and then when everything was mashed into it to get it into one game it required crazy patchwork code to get working. When you have a game running on all these cobbled together things, it's hard to get anything good out of it.

Just curious OP, what exactly do you mean by "back end and quality of life updates." Like, please give some examples of things you like in exchange for content.

So, let's start with the most obvious problem with this compromise: even if you could get the entireity of active forum goers to agree (you can't) it would still not be a compromise from the community. The forums are such a small fraction of the FF XIV community. We really do need to drop this whole, "We'll do this for the community." You nor anyone else can possibly speak on behalf of the community.


That said, the proposed solution of less upfront content and more back end fixes would kill the game. In gaming (and virtually every other business in the entertainment industry), content is king. I don't have a source for this, but I guarantee if you polled the active player base, most would be unaware of any significant back end problems. Why? They just play the game when there is either new content or the current content engages them, and they care little about anything else. There is a reason that very, very few MMOs ever do back end fixes, and this is why. Players want content. When back end fixes are done, it's only because the game makes a ridiculous amount of money and that additional back end is a great investment (WoW) or the game is struggling so bad that it must do it to make a return on the initial investment (FF XIV 1.0).


We all want back end fixes. There are numerous issues on the back end with this game (my personal pet peeve is the bad net code). But with a live game, these really can't be done. Players, no matter what you think or your friends think, will not support a game that results in less content. The only way you are going to see any back end changes is the subscriber base has to grow—and keep growing—to convince investors that additional money to alleviate back end issues will result in continued growth.


But we're not there yet. Not even close.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Just curious OP, what exactly do you mean by "back end and quality of life updates." Like, please give some examples of things you like in exchange for content.

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1. Fix the net/server code.
2. Fix the Engine for higher res character models.

If they were to fix the net code so the server ticks aren't a thing to play around? I think that would be awesome.

If you're going to cut something for improvements elsewhere, then it really should be savage raiding, or the 8 man raids in general. I am sure people here will be very vocal about it since "it's the only content that matters" but it is also the least played content of the game. If you're going to cut something it really should be the least played content, even if it has the loudest players

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

If you're going to cut something for improvements elsewhere, then it really should be savage raiding, or the 8 man raids in general. I am sure people here will be very vocal about it since "it's the only content that matters" but it is also the least played content of the game. If you're going to cut something it really should be the least played content, even if it has the loudest players

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Normal mode would have to go too then considering they design the fights top down. Savage first, then strip away and alter mechanics for normal mode. Could you casuals handle that?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

If you're going to cut something for improvements elsewhere, then it really should be savage raiding, or the 8 man raids in general. I am sure people here will be very vocal about it since "it's the only content that matters" but it is also the least played content of the game. If you're going to cut something it really should be the least played content, even if it has the loudest players

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In that case let's get rid of male glamour :p

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Normal mode would have to go too then considering they design the fights top down. Savage first, then strip away and alter mechanics for normal mode. Could you casuals handle that?

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The top end would just change from savage raiding to another piece of content, or they could design them differently all together. But your remark about "could you casuals handle that" is perfectly indicative of the attitude savage players have. Even though you are the smallest minority of players you believe yourselves the most important and the driving force of the game, when the fact is if you all left SE would barely feel the loss in subscriptions.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

The top end would just change from savage raiding to another piece of content, or they could design them differently all together. But your remark about "could you casuals handle that" is perfectly indicative of the attitude savage players have. Even though you are the smallest minority of players you believe yourselves the most important and the driving force of the game, when the fact is if you all left SE would barely feel the loss in subscriptions.

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You realize thatthere are a lot more people who raid, but don't finish the tier than you expect right? I sure hope you don't also complain about the quality of players dropping currently while raiders on on break.


Getting rid of the raids leaves nothing difficult to do I. This game. Instead we can not update things like pvp and male glamour, since those aren't really used much and just have a loud minority. Right? Can also get rid of beast tribes and the catch up leveling areas like potd and HoH.


The truth is the only content in the game that most people do is dungeons. Everything else is optional. And no one will ever agree on what is worth it to give up.

Look what I said was probably inflammatory and I am aware that I probably should have worded it differently but the attitude of raiders has generally been self important and dismissive of others, and I think it needs to stop. Also the people that attempt and never clear, can you also say that they would really miss it? Or that they would leave the game if there were no raiding? Are you also implying that without the raiding community no one else would be able to clear any content, because I just find that hard to believe.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Look what I said was probably inflammatory and I am aware that I probably should have worded it differently but the attitude of raiders has generally been self important and dismissive of others, and I think it needs to stop. Also the people that attempt and never clear, can you also say that they would really miss it? Or that they would leave the game if there were no raiding? Are you also implying that without the raiding community no one else would be able to clear any content, because I just find that hard to believe.

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Considering it's raiders that give you guides, rotations, BiS lists. Yeah, most players wouldn't amount to much. Also how many more enrage wipes would you see if the overall quality of players go down? Alot more, if you even get there.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Issue is? FFXIV is a constant money maker for Square Enix but that money goes to other projects.

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And where do you think the money to make FFXIV came from? Thin air? It came from other projects.

Using money from one project to fund another is a perfectly normal, legitimate and sensible business practise in any industry. Get used to it.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Look what I said was probably inflammatory and I am aware that I probably should have worded it differently but the attitude of raiders has generally been self important and dismissive of others, and I think it needs to stop. Also the people that attempt and never clear, can you also say that they would really miss it? Or that they would leave the game if there were no raiding? Are you also implying that without the raiding community no one else would be able to clear any content, because I just find that hard to believe.

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I suppose you're right in a sense - as in that its not "raiders" that you need to provide you with guides or assistances but rather dedicated people who know the ins and outs of their jobs and have the will and the motivation to figure out how fights work in detail.
Lots of people dont have this dedication, even lots of people who dabble with endgame. They look up BiS-lists and guides and if they cant find any, they dont bother anymore. They might clear fights, but they might not understand why they cleared them and cant replicate it - my raidgroup is trying to figure out stuff on our own for the most part, but we've had situations where certain mechanics were so... cryptic that we were able to come up with ways of somehow dealing with them but we didnt understood what was happening (stuff like patterns of markers targetting people and the like).

And even if not for providing guides: You need dedicated people to basically promote your game, in a sense.
But here is the problem: you need those dedicated people to be intrested and you need to reward them for their dedication and give them something where they can put all their work and knowledge to good use - the raids.

I'm quite tired of this raider-hate and all the "elitist"-screams that are getting thrown around, specially because there is no good reason for that. But there is a good reason to actually give people an "endgoal" and to keep those people who really put a lot of work into this game intrested.
Without that the overall mindset of the game would turn even more into "eh, it doesnt really matter what I'm doing and what gear I'm wearing anyways", which can only be harmful to the overall community.


And personally - and a little anecdotal: Half of the active members of my FC are "raid-logging" for the past... 2 months? We only log in to raid together and then log back out. And we only just cleared A12S this week, despite trying for... far to long - we're going about this very casual, two raiddays a week, trying to figure everything out ourselves and actually not using guides, but its the most fun and engaging content to me. Its the only content that actually make me feel like it really matters wether or not I get new gear or optimise my rotation. Its the only content that rewards me for trying my best. So yes. I would dearly miss that.

And thats kinda what I meant earlier: Cutting content just because only a fraction of people are enjoying it, might actually cut the major part of the content those people are enjoying. PvP isnt excatly popular. Crafting and Gathering - specially endgame - arent really popular. Not everyone does Hilli. And so on and so on.
But I dare say that the game is better off with offering something for every type of player - hardcore-raider, casual-raider, non-raider, only-crafter.

...and please for the love of the twelve... can we finally stop with this nonsensical hating on people who like a challenge once in a while? Specially when its presented with such broad and unproven, non-fact-based claims?

What exactly do you mean by QoL changes? Or when people just say "fix spaghetti code" what exactly would that include? What exactly is it that they can't fix as they pump out new content as well? Coming from ESO, honestly this game is so, so much better (ex. just the fact that group finder works, I can log in properly without constantly getting disconnected, and there's not as many server problems.) and I don't know what specific stuff need to be prioritized like you say?

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Originally Posted by shaiel

What exactly do you mean by QoL changes? Or when people just say "fix spaghetti code" what exactly would that include? What exactly is it that they can't fix as they pump out new content as well? Coming from ESO, honestly this game is so, so much better (ex. just the fact that group finder works, I can log in properly without constantly getting disconnected, and there's not as many server problems.) and I don't know what specific stuff need to be prioritized like you say?

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Everyone has lag in FFXIV. Thats why it isn't as noticeable. Ever notice how people move outta AoEs and still get hit by them? Etc. Its the bad net code. That Yoshi P has said himself that they would love to go back in and fix, but like the resources, manpower, and time to do it

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

So every interview just about Yoshi-P speaks of really cool things they'd like to do, but couldn't do because it would slow down the content they push out to us. So with that I have a question to us as a community.

Would you be willing to have an expansion with less upfront content, but more back end and quality of life updates.

They said it would be an expansion worth of effort to go in and fix the code and servers to really do the cool stuff they wanna do in the future.

I would be okay with that! We could maybe not have a 24 man on expansion, or maybe not as many beast tribes. We would have to make concessions, but I think for the game's future? It would be worth it.

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No... please no.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

1. Fix the net/server code.
2. Fix the Engine for higher res character models.

If they were to fix the net code so the server ticks aren't a thing to play around? I think that would be awesome.

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1. Fix the net/server code.
Examples Please. Whats wrong with the Coding, and what do they need to fix?
Will fixing it be worth delaying more content, and will it not destroy or hurt something else?

2. Fix the Engine for higher res character models.
The game is Pretty enough, we dont NEED Higher Rez models. Plus consider the resources that would be needed to maintain it, and Animate it constantly across the board.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Everyone has lag in FFXIV. Thats why it isn't as noticeable. Ever notice how people move outta AoEs and still get hit by them? Etc. Its the bad net code. That Yoshi P has said himself that they would love to go back in and fix, but like the resources, manpower, and time to do it

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Have you also factored in other peoples Internet Connections and Latency?
It might not just be on FFXIV's end

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Have you also factored in other peoples Internet Connections and Latency?
It might not just be on FFXIV's end

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Literally its a well knownf act dating back to 1.0 its the server code. That's one thing that can't be argued.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

1. Fix the net/server code.
Examples Please. Whats wrong with the Coding, and what do they need to fix?
Will fixing it be worth delaying more content, and will it not destroy or hurt something else?

2. Fix the Engine for higher res character models.
The game is Pretty enough, we dont NEED Higher Rez models. Plus consider the resources that would be needed to maintain it, and Animate it constantly across the board.

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Zoom into your hands and feet and then see if you feel the same. Also not model updates..just texture updates. Zero animation involved.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Literally its a well knownf act dating back to 1.0 its the server code. That's one thing that can't be argued.

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You realize 1.0 had other issues right, like only having servers located in japan, as well as all ui actions being server side.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You realize 1.0 had other issues right, like only having servers located in japan, as well as all ui actions being server side.

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Thats one of the few things that carried over was the server ping. They fixed just about everything else by getting rid of the ps3 and soon 32 bit clients so they wont be as limited

What they need to do is hire more people instead of spending millions to make an avengers game and a 20 year DLC game (FFVII remake)