So.... will it still be worth it?

The new change to SCH will make it so we can’t tell our fairy who to use embrace on, or where to stand, right? If so, is there really any point to having our fairy out all the time? I made a secondary set up where I just summon my fairy to use their Whispering Dawn, then they away right after. That way I can in a round about way, position the fairy without needing to be able to command them to. Only reason I can see to actually keep it up is for the fairy bar, so I can cast the occasional party fairy heal that will cost 20 of our bar.

The fairy is still going to be a part of sch's toolkit and if you aren't using her it's just going to make you lose assets you would otherwise have. Also you can still control placement from what I saw.

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Originally Posted by Freerider

The fairy is still going to be a part of sch's toolkit and if you aren't using her it's just going to make you lose assets you would otherwise have. Also you can still control placement from what I saw.

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Oh! As long as I can move the fairy I’m happy. I just thought I’d have to use my emergency macro set up I made to cope with the loss of my ability to position my fairy.

The fairy will still follow you, is immune to damage, and will automatically cast embrace on people. So, yeah. Keep her out.

In the past, the Fairy has usually prioritised her owner, then the closest target with further targets going down in priority accordingly.

Whilst you won't be able to manually spam embrace on a tank even if they aren't under the embrace threshold anymore, it does look like you'll still be able to quite literally plop her right in the tanks face to skew the embrace priority towards them.

Also, don't forget Dissipation. That ability is shaping up to look like a powerhouse now and it's stock will only go up further if SCH do get some offensive usage for Aetherflow again.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Also, don't forget Dissipation. That ability is shaping up to look like a powerhouse now and it's stock will only go up further if SCH do get some offensive usage for Aetherflow again.

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The entire point of Dissipation (for the most part) as it stands right now is to either:

1) Give aetherflow for more Energy Drains and Quicken Aetherflow
2) Fish for a massive Critlo - Deployment to avoid a mechanic

Both of those are going to be gone in ShB. While they were pruning or changing abilities I always thought Dissipation was a prime candidate.

If you're in an Oh Sh!t situation, losing your fairy is the last thing you want to do. Especially in ShB with Seraph.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Also, don't forget Dissipation. That ability is shaping up to look like a powerhouse now and it's stock will only go up further if SCH do get some offensive usage for Aetherflow again.

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Wait? How is Dissipation shaping up exactly? It's still the same "useless" skill it has been. The only good thing they added was resummoning the fairy automatically, when the status ends. Otherwise, you are still losing about a 1/3 of your kit, to get a slight boost to another 1/3, leaving the remaining 1/3 unaffected. If anything it's a bit more skewed since the fairy is getting more emphasis and there are no DPS options anymore, Aetherflow is purely for healing now.

Don't get me wrong if Dissipation effected more than just spell healing, it would be a good skill. But even under Dissipation Physick is barely 500 potency, it's only 480, Adlo would be 360, with a 450 shield, and Succor would be 180 with a 270 shield. Compare to WHM natural 450 Cure, 700 Cure 2, 300 Medica, and a Sect AST 440 Benefic, 715 Benefic 2, and 330 Helios. Medica 2 and A. Helios aren't included, since they are the equivalent of Succor normally.

Anyway, those numbers on the surface sound great, but that's if you can spam the spells, on SCH you cant. You can only use Emergency Tactics every 20 seconds. And SCHs don't have a first tier heal. Only an "augmented" second tier. Based on the new info first tier heals are 1000mp and second tier are 1300mp That's an extra 300mp per cast, of which only one will get to us ET in a 20s window, though you shouldn't be spamming for that long honestly.

It's not like the skill couldn't be good, even if it was for healing, but it needs something "more". I cant say what, since any suggestions might sound OP, but it's still awkward, like when Excognition was first introduced, and Excog is a great skill now, and fits the SCHs kit nicely, so I do believe Dissipation can be fixed.

Maybe lower some MP costs, or make the spells instant, or make ET's CD 1s for more use, something to give us that extra piece we lack when we don't have the fairy, but the other healers do.

Maybe if Aetherflow is off CD it can convert remaining Aetherflow into Fey Gauge, though that only works as a complete rework, and if Dissipation is moved to 70+. Not to mention you need more skills that can use the gauge more frequently. Even the new AoE heal can't be spammed. So the gauge, while good could still be a bit awkward. It's harder to increase now, and if you eat her and regain 6 hearts, does it stay as is?

I'm thinking that it'll be interesting in downtime phases rather than moments of panic. Think phases with a substantial amount of consistent damage rather than any Burst. Kefka's melee attacks are a great example of the lines that I'm thinking of, but this could apply to AoE to a lesser extent as well.

SCH is going to have a huge amount of oGCD healing pretty much sitting there with the main limitation being how much you can tidily weave in vs when it's actually worth clipping, perhaps for the sake of allowing both healers to keep bombing those DPS GCDs out. Think about how much healing is going to be coming out from Sacred Soil with a 50% uptime, coupled with Indom filling in alongside an Excog on the tank. Emergency Tactics will comfortably allow them to fill in the gaps if they fall behind on the tanks and the penalty is minimal if you plan ahead a little bit.

Taken in isolation, the clipping will suck. Horridly. However, I'm thinking that this may well push the min maxers even further down the road of the SCH doing all the heavy lifting whilst the WHM simply throws rocks between Asylums and Tetras. Comfortably skipping a bunch of Regen refreshes will pay dividends pretty quickly.

I could be wrong of course, I'm no SCH theory crafter and haven't raided with it at the top flight in years. This is just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'm thinking that it'll be interesting in downtime phases rather than moments of panic. Think phases with a substantial amount of consistent damage rather than any Burst. Kefka's melee attacks are a great example of the lines that I'm thinking of, but this could apply to AoE to a lesser extent as well.

SCH is going to have a huge amount of oGCD healing pretty much sitting there with the main limitation being how much you can tidily weave in vs when it's actually worth clipping, perhaps for the sake of allowing both healers to keep bombing those DPS GCDs out. Think about how much healing is going to be coming out from Sacred Soil with a 50% uptime, coupled with Indom filling in alongside an Excog on the tank. Emergency Tactics will comfortably allow them to fill in the gaps if they fall behind on the tanks and the penalty is minimal if you plan ahead a little bit.

Taken in isolation, the clipping will suck. Horridly. However, I'm thinking that this may well push the min maxers even further down the road of the SCH doing all the heavy lifting whilst the WHM simply throws rocks between Asylums and Tetras. Comfortably skipping a bunch of Regen refreshes will pay dividends pretty quickly.

I could be wrong of course, I'm no SCH theory crafter and haven't raided with it at the top flight in years. This is just my opinion.

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The problem with all of this (respectfully) is what's been the problem with Dissipation from Day 1: The majority of SCH heals aren't affected by it's effect. All the oGCD stuff are Abilities and not Spells.

The new Sacred Soil with it's Regen is an Ability, not a spell.

The only things that it affects are Physic, Adlo, an Succor.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The problem with all of this (respectfully) is what's been the problem with Dissipation from Day 1: The majority of SCH heals aren't affected by it's effect. All the oGCD stuff are Abilities and not Spells.

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Oh I know this. It's about having more Aetherflow charges than we really know what to do with at this stage. The new Sacred Soil is going to see quite some use unless things change. Indom is still an absolute powerhouse and Excog is as good as ever. Using these abilities isn't going to carry quite the same potency loss as it did prior and Dissipation is just going to further fuel them now that that doesn't carry anything like as much of a penalty as it did prior. SCH is going to be packing absurd amounts of oGCD healing and I fully expect to see the likes of Momo abusing this hard for speed kills if the next tier allows it.

On a side note, it's interesting to note that the new Mantra and Asylum for 5.0 should boost SCH's oGCDs assuming the new tooltips can be trusted. Given the lack of VIT melds moving forward, it'll be interesting to see if this becomes a key part of the race for world first clears.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Oh I know this. It's about having more Aetherflow charges than we really know what to do with at this stage. The new Sacred Soil is going to see quite some use unless things change. Indom is still an absolute powerhouse and Excog is as good as ever. Using these abilities isn't going to carry quite the same potency loss as it did prior and Dissipation is just going to further fuel them now that that doesn't carry anything like as much of a penalty as it did prior. SCH is going to be packing absurd amounts of oGCD healing and I fully expect to see the likes of Momo abusing this hard for speed kills if the next tier allows it.

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But that still makes no sense. Why would we need more Aetherflow to us on abilities that Dissipation doesn't effect, especially since we don't have a sink anymore. Granted people are gonna wanna find some use so they can refresh Aetherflow for MP, but it's still would count as over healing or just be a straight up waste. And Why would we use it during "down time" if we have down time we'd wanna help with DPS, not kill the source of our oGCD heals.

Aetherflow is sorta like Assize, both WHM and SCH wanna use them once they are off CD. Both provided MP regen, heals, and damage, but Aetherflow lost its damage output. At least when we had Energy Drain people could see uses for Dissipation for extra damage or as a way to regain a lot of MP very quickly. But now that small bit is gone.

A truly experienced SCH never used it as the OH SHITE button it was probably intended to be, because if it got to that point there were other issues. And a good SCH new how to quickly regain HP in a snap; and admittedly having Largesse helped, because it didn't kill the fairy. Most used it for DPS, or quick bursts of justified healing in rapid succession as needed, in times planned out situations. But honestly, when I did remember it was there I just used it for burst DPS on farms, like the light farm from A1S. I really hope they can see, all other changes aside, Dissipation was disliked practically from day 1.

Ok lets slow down a little bit. Whilst I openly admit that I'm theory crafting arguably beyond my remit at this stage. I do think that you're misunderstanding the angle I'm coming from though.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

But that still makes no sense. Why would we need more Aetherflow to us on abilities that Dissipation doesn't effect

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First and foremost. Let's take that 20% healing magic bonus, put it in a box, put a big padlock on said box and then bury it under the sofa. It is a niche that I'm not interested in here. Please stop instantly discrediting my thoughts just because you think that I've misread a tooltip. I'm interested in the extra Aetherflow charges. In no way am I factoring in the healing bonus.

Thanks <3

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Originally Posted by Eloah

And Why would we use it during "down time" if we have down time we'd wanna help with DPS, not kill the source of our oGCD heals.

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I don't follow. This is about maximising oGCD heals during mechanical downtime. Not when no damage is coming in. This is about pushing towards allowing both healers to use near 100% GCD uptime on DPS in a situation where significant damage is still coming in but mechanics forcing movement aren't. Do you remember how hard Kefka's auto attacks were in Savage? This is probably the clearest example of what I'm talking about.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think it's going to be the next thin air. Rather, I think it has quite a bit more potential for min maxers and speed runs now. The penalty for using it isn't anything like as severe as it was before. A big caveat I should mention here is the cooldown on abilities. We're at the point where the big 3 (indom, soil and excog) will all be on cooldown. Will a handful of Lustrates be enough to save a few GCDs for the co healer to throw more rocks? If so? Yay profit! If not, then boo. Disipate goes to being an intermission ability.

Again, I'll hold my hands up and admit that I could be wrong. Fairy scaling is very tough to predict with the way that levelling up actually scales the fairy down if iLvl remains constant. It could end up more powerful at 80 than the preview gameplay suggests, but it could also end up even weaker.

For the fairy, there we have to manage her for : Fey Union | No Fey Union (Embrace, Whispering Down, Rouse, etc).
In 5.0, there will be more phases : Fey Union | No Fey Union (Embrace...) | Seraph | Dissipation.
Dissipation will not be used principly because of 20% bonus healing, but because of 3 free aetherflow stack which will be worth in exchange of the 150 potency of Embrace (It not the case actually with the 250 potency).
Because today exchange free healing for dps, is a bit risky and not necessarily a gain (because we will have to heal in compensation maybe).
But, exchange low heals for strong heals, this is different.

Current dissipation is/was a pain because it meant losing out on embrace for 30s and having to spend a 3s cast summoning the fairy again. Because of this you would need to make up for that loss before even seeing the upside.
Of course you would also use it when your skills were on cooldown and that won't change much because seraph skills share the same cooldown.

New dissipation has these fixed. Embrace was nerfed, the fairy comes back automatically. That's a lot less to make up for before seeing gains. The only reason we can't be completely happy about this is that we no longer have an AF dump and the AF skills we do have are on 30 and 45s cooldowns (short of lustrate). In practice this means that if things stay as they are (I'm still hoping for ED back before the raid tier) you at least have a few lustrates to spam. I have a sneaking suspicion tank damage will be more sustained than in SB so that's an extra opportunity to save healing GCDs on tanks.
This is not as powerful as if ED were still part of the kit but it's a little better than the current iteration (and much better if ED becomes a thing again). It will however still stay situational and probably only used for some min/max fine tuning, so sadly not that accessible to the common folk which seemed like the theme this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

.Please stop instantly discrediting my thoughts just because you think that I've misread a tooltip. I'm interested in the extra Aetherflow charges. In no way am I factoring in the healing bonus

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I am not trying to instantly discredit you, nor did I ever indicate you misread the tool tip. I'm merely pointing out why Dissipation is as "unliked" as it is. You are right we don't know how things will line up come Shadowbringers. But SE has had 4 years to fix Dissipation, and it took them that long to just add the effect of resummoning the fairy. One of the main issues is how Dissipation divides our kit. even with the Aetherflow stacks we lose the fairy as 1/3 of our kit, and if we blow through those stacks we lose another 1/3, leaving us with only 1/3 of our kit to rely upon. Yes the 20% bonus supports that part of our kit, but its not enough to fill in he gaps when 2/3s are missing. Trust me, no one who is arguing about Dissipation is even really taking the 20% buff into consideration at the moment. The main issue now is the main use most SCHs found for it is being taken away from us. Dissipation is that one skill, that every job has, that has a use, but the use sucks, but the community found another use for it, but always wished SE would change it. Hey they finally removed One Ilm Punch, and sorta fixed Freeze. But SE is taking away the use we found and sorta wants to force us to use it as intended, which at the moment doesn't work.

I am not trying to discredit you, or saying anything negative about your opinion. I am only stating that experienced SCH are taking everything into consideration, and the outcome they are getting is, the skill is still broken.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

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It's all good <3. It's a good thing to have insightful discussion about how some of these changes will interact with other as it's often the little overlooked details that can push things over a particular tipping point.

Personally, I think you're over estimating the power of the fairy relative to a Soil+Excog combo for that 20 seconds, particularly if it can get combo'd with a WHM's Asylum. Of course this all hinges on that not being required to pad up a spread adlo which is almost guaranteed to be a thing during early progression now.

It's really quite a strange situation to be in. Trivial content is quickly going to get dull as dishwater as a healer. However, early progression in Savage should actually be pretty exciting assuming that SE deliver on the difficulty and take advantage of the lack of Vit melds.

Maybe someone who is more familiar with SCH can tell me but if the new fairy can't take damage then it should stand to reason it has no impact on mechanics, like splitting damage, so placement outside of being in range for casts is pointless or is there other reasons placement, other than just following you, is desirable

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Originally Posted by Lola_bunny

Maybe someone who is more familiar with SCH can tell me but if the new fairy can't take damage then it should stand to reason it has no impact on mechanics, like splitting damage, so placement outside of being in range for casts is pointless or is there other reasons placement, other than just following you, is desirable

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Not sure what your question is exactly, but yes, new pets shouldnt be affected by anything cc. Now the current embrace has a cast so if they are following they have to they either stop to cast it or move to catch up to you before casting, so it was usually best to place them, however all pet skills will be instant in shb so then you dont really have to place your pet anywhere really...

As for dissipation I think its going to be pretty useless, especially if they didnt change it so it works on all your heals, the shb description we know at the moment (subject to change) is still the same one we have now so looking like it'll still just affect spells. The loss of energy drain and with fairies getting more abilities, aoe heal and seraph, I really dont see a reason to use dissipation even with the auto resummon... not sure what they can do to it that isnt a major change.

Another thing im curious about is the new adlo effect and deployment... the new adlo has 2 separate shields for when it crits, so 1 for the regular heal (galvanize) and the other for the crit (Catalyze), however deployment still show it only works on the galvanize does that imply it wont actually deploy the double shield? If so kinda feels like a nerf as well then...

Yes, Critlo was intentionally nerfed, especially with that crit heal on demand skill.

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Originally Posted by althenawhm

Yes, Critlo was intentionally nerfed, especially with that crit heal on demand skill.

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I understand why they changed adlo like that, cause AST will be able to noct and diurnal at the sametime, i just hope deployment spreads both galvanize and catalyze is all...