I've been playing Samurai since 4.0, (played NIN in HW) and I've really loved how it plays. The only thing I can complain about it right now is that it doesn't do enough dps to compete w/ the other melee's utility. Other than that it's fun and satisfying to play!
What I like:
-AOE combo finishers extending buffs, (no tp cost for gcds now) which is really nice QOL.
-Cast reduction for iaijutsu, might be able to weave something after casting.
-12% shifu & jinpu is nice.
-Senei: single target version of guren, animation's really cool too.
-Shoha's animation, it's sick.
-Double iaijutsu's kinda cool, wish it was a different animation for the second one.
What I don't like:
-Hagakure being replaced by a CD that gives you a flat 50 kenki at no cost. While this is a buff to our actual dps, hagakure was what made SAM's rotation interesting. It was perfect for managing sen. Coming back to the boss after downtime/starting a dungeon pull with 2 to 3 sen is really clunky.
-Seigan still exists. It's such a minor dps gain, and having to be damaged to use it is silly imo. I would rather it be removed.
-How shoha functions. The ability is super underwhelming especially for how cool the animation is. The amount of times you can get a full meditate off is pretty rare, and I don't like the idea of a skill that gets better if there's more downtime. There's a lot of suggestions on how to fix this skill in this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rai-Lv80-Skill.
One thing I want to suggest is having meditate being reworked. Instead of it being a channeled ability to use during downtime, it could just be a buff that works similarly. It could give kenki, and stacks that last until you use shoha, or just allow you to use it a flat potency. The amount of kenki you get per tick might need to be adjusted, but the ability would be more useful overall. Also the red glow could cover the katana after meditate is over, and would go away as you use shoha. That would be super satisfying as a level 80 skill.
Samurai 5.0 changes, feedback/suggestions
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06-04-2019, 03:16 AMJakkuPMSamurai 5.0 changes, feedback/suggestions
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06-04-2019, 07:12 AMSwarleyMcSwarls
I don't think we can safely say if it does or does not do enough damage yet. With that said, I mostly agree with what you are saying.
Shoha is total garbage and fairly unnecessary imo. If we can target something, we're gonna be hitting it unless mechanics force us not to. So having that as the big level 80 skill is just bad unless they are putting a lot more downtime into fights. Which doesn't feel good either.
I totally agree about seigan. It is a net dps gain, but the amount you get from correctly doing it is not noticeable at all. So it's mostly just wasted optimization potential. And speaking of optimization, I'm not really seeing anywhere to do some big brain optimizing on the job. About all that's gonna separate average samurai players from great ones will be how well players work with party buffs. But that's mostly how the job already functioned on its release. So I mostly would just like to see another way to get Shoha procs. Actually, they could knock out both my complaints and have using seigan give meditate procs for shoha. Just depends on what that would do to dps balancing. But something like that would be VERY welcome from me.
Actually, that'd be a lot of potency for getting hit. But I wouldn't mind them doubling down on optimization. -
06-04-2019, 07:32 AMSigiria
Shoha is one of these skill that are way too situational to feel very significant, the fact that the potency is basically nothing unless you charge more than 2 stacks mean the boss will have to be away for a while to use it. And based on most existing fight, the times this happen without having to deal with adds is like twice a fight.
Ok it's a dps gain, but it feels very underwhelming for a skill lvl80. What I'm wondering is if using meditation out of combat still precharge the stacks for shoha. Meaning you'd have 30s to use it in your opener. Still wouldn't be outstanding but at least you'd be using it consistently at the start of a fight. -
06-04-2019, 07:50 AMSwarleyMcSwarls
I was hoping you could stack it pre-pull as well. But, as of the media build, it only gave you the stacks when you generated kenki on meditate. So no extra potency in your opener unless you are fishing for kenki with meditate after your first gcd.
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06-04-2019, 09:07 AMNarigo1
Removing ageha was pretty unnecessary imo.
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06-12-2019, 06:10 AMLeonus
I'm fine with Hagakure going away. I don't think starting a fight with 2-3 send is clunky either, I actually think it's pretty straight forward.
Shoha is meh, sigan is still there. It is what it is. I'm going to enjoy Sam more than I did. I'm hoping they change the encounters more... As the repetitiveness of them from ARR to Stormblood drove me away from the game. The only thing that kept me coming back from time to time in SB was the story. -
06-12-2019, 02:01 PMBurningskull
Can we get Shoha and Senei's animations swapped? Shoha looks so much cooler than Senei and I'd like to be able to see it more than once a fight if that. I really dislike situational skills on a whole and would rather Shoha be changed mechanically somehow. If it can't or wont be changed then can we have the animations swapped?
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06-14-2019, 01:12 PMArkdraHard disagree, smacking someone with the scabard rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burningskull
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06-17-2019, 11:50 PMNora_of_MiraI'm pretty sure from the footage that your highest Meditate stack lasts for 30 seconds so you have some wiggle room as to when you use your Shoha. It goes w/o saying that dungeons will likely never see this ability used but we can't say what the 24mans/extremes/savage are going to throw at us in terms of down time. I actually like the ability as it means even if the boss jumps away for a few seconds you have a reason to meditate and get that Shoha off.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakkuPM
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06-19-2019, 02:24 AMRivxkobe
I really like SAM I just never really like Mediate, at all, and adding something else too it is not something I like seeing.
I'm probably going to be maining DNC though in ShB but I'll still use SAM from time to time.
I really like the addition of Senei though and the changes to our AoE. -
06-20-2019, 06:04 PMValenth
The one change I would put for Shoha is that the dmg scaling is reversed. Aka make the first tick a 200 potency one, and scaling it less with each tick to 500 at the 5th one. This makes it favorable to use still (since if you time it right, you can get a single tick of meditate off during regular combat in between GCD's) and make it have that super 500 potency 'oomph' factor in long boss fights with breaks in them.
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06-21-2019, 08:16 PMGruntler
The reason Shoha is level 80 is because you're -very- likely to be able to use a double-iajutsu in the level 77 and 79 dungeons, but it's highly unlikely you'll use meditate in the level 77 or 79 dungeons.
You're -very- likely to use meditate in Primals or Raids, where such downtimes commonly occur. Would you give up the ability to double iaijutsu for shoha in levelling?
Didn't think so.
But Shoha is really good. If I told you 'Do 815 potency in your first gcd after downtime ends on a boss fight' any samurai worth their salt would appreciate that.
Well, that's what Shoha does. -
06-21-2019, 11:58 PMLeonusI agree with what you said.. but where did you get this potency? Did I miss something? I don't mind shoha at all, sure it might not see much use, but it incentivized me to use meditate (I already did) during downtime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
Though, if you can clip the animation, even better. Shoha, to Iaijutsu. -
06-22-2019, 12:35 AMmosaicexHakaze + Full stack Shoha = (180 + 500) = 680Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
But he also included 12% damage buff from Jinpu (6̶8̶0̶ ̶*̶ ̶1̶.̶2̶ ̶=̶ ̶8̶1̶6̶ Edit: Nevermind I can't into math, it's only 680 * 1.12 = 761) which will most likely already dropped off if you somehow managed to get full stacks of Meditation during downtime, for some reason.
Not that you should immediately use Shoha after down time anyway since you're unlikely to get to use them more than once (at least at full potency) in each fight, so might as well wait for the raid burst window. -
06-22-2019, 03:42 AMLeonusAh, adding dmg modifiers/buffs makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by mosaicex
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06-22-2019, 06:35 AMcactuarzzzz
My wish for Meditate change/improvement
Gain 1 stack of meditate every 1 second while under the effect of meditate.
Grant 1 buff depend on number of stacks when stop meditate. Buff last 10 seconds
1 stack = Ensure Next Weapon Skill/Ability will be a Direct Hit
2 stacks = Ensure Next Weapon Skill/Ability will be a Critical Hit
3 stacks = Ensure Next Weapon Skill/Ability will be a Critical Direct Hit -
06-24-2019, 04:59 PMSylvainI agree, we had a SAM in our static group and while she performed very well, had very decent parse etc etc, we all agreed, that was a tad bit too low compared to what others could do a bring. We had very high hope in 4.4 fr, but hey, it was better than nothing I guessQuote:
Originally Posted by JakkuPM
I think the reasoning is that Shinten feels less impactful than Midare. Many new player playing SAM didn't understand the use of Hagakure because in their eyes, Shinten < Midare.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakkuPM
In other words, they don't see how strong the fact that it was an ogcd is. This lead to many SAM under performing (yes, I agree, they could read a guide).
From my experience with virtually everyone who attempted SAM casually (like, not as a main job), nearly everyone didn't get the point of that CD and were always "but isn't it better to do Midare?"
So this was done, I believe, to make SAM feel more... intuitive. Everyone starting the job understand the importance of keeping the buffs and DoT up, that positional = kenki = more damage (altough many don't even notice it). But there's one thing that elude most new SAM, and it was Hagakure.
So yes, it will make the rotation less interesting, and that's unfortunate. But I don't think it's a bad change, like increasing Astral/Umbral stance duration from 12s to 15s will make the rotation/management more simple for BLM, I welcome the change if that means more BLM not shying away.
Well this one is a tricky one. On one hand, you can't realistically make it hit too hard as it would mean SAM performe better in high damage situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JakkuPM
Removing it would also make Third Eye only "combo" into Mercifull Eye which is fine for solo play but that's about it...
I don't know what they could do with it, buff it and it's broken (or worse, you need to take it into account into your dps rotation meaning that SAM underperform in easy fight), nerf it and it's not even useful.
Perhaps turning it more into a utility tool would be a great solution or giving more combo options.
Like making Merciful Eye an AoE with a 1min CD. I mean, that would have been quite useful on OS12 during HW or Bog... (it's not like Seigan was a game changer anyway)
I agree that it's a very underwhelming lv80 skill, as ... not usable in most fight.Quote:
-How shoha functions. The ability is super underwhelming especially for how cool the animation is. The amount of times you can get a full meditate off is pretty rare, and I don't like the idea of a skill that gets better if there's more downtime. There's a lot of suggestions on how to fix this skill in this thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rai-Lv80-Skill.
One thing I want to suggest is having meditate being reworked. Instead of it being a channeled ability to use during downtime, it could just be a buff that works similarly. It could give kenki, and stacks that last until you use shoha, or just allow you to use it a flat potency. The amount of kenki you get per tick might need to be adjusted, but the ability would be more useful overall. Also the red glow could cover the katana after meditate is over, and would go away as you use shoha. That would be super satisfying as a level 80 skill.
Personally I think the best would simply be to tie it to the main rotation on top of its current effect. For instance, every time you complete a combo sequence you get a stack. (or whenever you use Laijutsu). Making it usable when there are no downtime.
And then on top of it you can use meditation during downtime. -
06-24-2019, 05:28 PMDuskane
do agree Shoha needs to be changed some how
also Third eye and its mechanics also seem extremely minor now -
06-28-2019, 05:14 AMKhalen_Shield
What I wonder is, will SAM be shoved out of Meta for NIN or DRG.
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06-29-2019, 03:30 PMRyazNinja will always be META as long as it has Trick Attack. Drg won't be as desired as before with the loss of the piercing debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalen_Shield
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06-30-2019, 08:34 AMDaemonInazuma
I can agree with Hagakure. I don't mind the change to Ikishoten. I actually prefer it for the damage window we now get, but I miss the ability to get rid of Sen after a fight.
Hopefully, they could add Hagakure back but it could only be used outside combat as a Sen dump. -
07-01-2019, 09:12 AMRangar
Hopefully? They need to, SAM feels so clumsy without it.
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07-01-2019, 09:58 PMLeonus
So far, not having Hagakure hasn't been bad or difficult. I'm having fun still.
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07-01-2019, 11:46 PMDaemonInazumaI agree. It's not the end of the world, but it would be a good QOL change to be able to dump Sen after a fight. I'd be fine if it didn't give anything in return either, no Kenki. It would be nice of them ;), but I would understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonus
As far as the other abilities, I can agree that Shoha feels too situational for such an awesome animation.
I know this is not popular opinion, but to me, Third Eye is SAM's best ability. The problem with Third Eye is that the abilities it procs are not that great. Seigan is a minor DPS gain and Merciful eyes is a heal which is clearly a copy somewhat of Monk and the Chakra system.
IMHO, the changes they should make are this:
Make Shoha be an upgrade from Seigan and make the potency worth it like around 750-800. We get an OGCD with a great animation that we can use during raid wide damage.
Change merciful eyes to some other name and make it a buff off of meditation. The meditation stacks would determine how much the buff is and give it a decent timer like 15 seconds. The buff could be dmg, crit, or direct hit. That way when you got to Shinten spam or Senei after meditation downtime, your getting that worthwhile burst of DPS to catch you back up.
If SE is really generous, give us a AOE ability after procing Third Eye to complete the set. -
07-02-2019, 07:59 AMGeminaI'm not a new player playing SAM, but I am a new SAM. I literally got my SAM to 70 about a week before early access and got to play around with Hagakure before the change. I can't speak for all new SAMs, but I can say Shinten is godsend since SAM doesn't have a whole lot of offensive ogcds to weave between weaponskills. I don't run parsers or anything like that, but I could just feel my DPS suffering if I held onto Kenki for the sake of boosting Madare. So hopefully that let's you know that not all new SAMs see Madare as the end all be all of SAM. Especially after acquiring skills like Guren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
What I didn't like about Hagakure was that it ate whatever amount of Sen you had built up, where I would have preferred that the ability was proc based and available so long as you had a Sen to eat, and would only consume one. That was the update I was hoping for before all the information was released, and was perfectly fine if the amount of Kenki generated was reduced as a result of this change. Instead we get free 50 Kenki every 60 seconds. It's less than flattering and I feel it was a lazy change, but the gripes end there. What ultimately matters is I have plenty of opportunity to weave in Shinten between skills. -
07-02-2019, 10:04 AMStormblessed9000
I actually really like the changes for the most part. My two biggest problems with SB SAM was that runing out of TP when doing AoE was very easy and felt horrible, and that it sometimes felt like you barely got to use Iaijutsu on some fights due to downtime. I know Ikishoten is somewhat controversial, and I would like a sen wipe just for the utility, but in reality you had to use it as a DPS cooldown as part of your rotation rather than as a utility skill.
You should always hold kenki for booing Iaijutsu. A boosted Midare adds 400 potency for 20 kenki (20p/k) and a boosted Higanbana will give 475 potency for 20 kenki (23.75p/k). Shinten only adds 320 potency for 25 kenki (12.8p/k). The only Hissatsu that ever beats the appropriate Iaijutsu is Senei and Guren for single target and AoE respectively. This means that you should never use Shinten or Kyuten unless you know you'll have enough kenki to both boost every Iaijutsu and to use Senei/Guren on cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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07-02-2019, 10:47 AMGeminaI should have been more clear. I didn't mean to not boost Midare, I just meant to not hold onto Shenten. The thing is though, you can use it pretty liberally but there are some windows where you shouldn't burn the 25 kenki so Midare's GCD lines up correctly. Post 62, you generate 20 kenki required pretty quickly assuming you're doing your positionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormblessed9000
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07-02-2019, 11:37 AMStormblessed9000Even then, holding off on using Shinten is only a DPS loss if you cap your kenki or if you finish the fight with unspent kenki. Ideally you actually want to hold as much as possible for when party buffs are up while not getting capped. It's also not a terrible idea to have enough saved to Yaten and Gyoten since any gained uptime is worth the small potency loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
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07-02-2019, 12:06 PMRyaz
So far I've been enjoying the changes. Just hit 68 and am starting to settle into a bit of an opener. Double Midare just feels really good and things line up nicely now with Meikyo, Ikishoten, and Tsubame being on 60 sec cooldowns (and Senei/Guren on 120).
Not sure how well it'll all line up at higher skill speeds, though. -
07-03-2019, 12:50 AMSiriusBreeze
Throwing my 2-cents (my 2-sens!) in as someone who started getting serious about sam a week before shadowbringers launch in the small hope that it reaches the ears of the dev team: Please give us back Hagakure!
Hagakure as a cooldown introduced a bit of ebb and flow to the job when it came to kenki management. If Hagakure was still far away from refreshing, you would play conservatively to make sure you have the kenki to boost a midare or higanbana (or both in quick succession). If you knew Hagakure was going to be off cooldown by the time you have your sen, you go nuts spending your kenki, switching from a build up and blow up style play to a frenzied constant-weaving style of play. It created some level of flexibility in how you could play if you understood what gives the most bang for your buck. As others have said, it also lets you dump your sen for phase transitions. You can use it to dump your sen if you want to refresh your higanbana (and gives you the kenki to boost it).
The new ikitoshin is just kind of their, kind of brainless, and doesn't really enhance the gameplay beyond "use this to shinten some more". Or syncing it with the 50-kenki spenders (gurren and the new one) so you can always use those attacks.
The new samurai set-up just seems kind of stiff without Hagakure to me, where we're always building up to Midares (and we can do a second Midare every minute now). No real feeling ebb and flow. I think it was durring a live letter they mentioned the reason for the change was because dumping sen feels bad? I can't agree with that idea at all. I love dumping sen, or that is to say (and I'm probably repeating myself) I love the ebb and flow, the give and take of the job.
Those are my personal feeling as someone who more recently took up the katana before Shadowbringers anyway. -
07-03-2019, 09:54 AMMikira
As someone who has been playing sam since the launch of Stormblood, I am little disappointed in the current form that Sam is in. Right now it feels like our overall performance is equal or just a little higher to monk and dragoon without a raid utility. I feel as if Sam's dps doesn't get a boost, they will never be taken for a raid group. Keep in mind I am basing this on current 440 gear.
As far as Shoha (I was able to use it twice in Titania btw) And Mediate goes it's fine as it is, it's an ability to help make up for the loss dps during downtime and the other new abilities are okay, but something is missing, I know I'm doing less Shintens now than I did before. And that might be the issues with the overall DPS, even with the extra Midares. If the damage is going to stay as it, then we need a raid buff or boost to overall dps. (Maybe a slight redesign of a current ability, something similar to what they did to War in Stormblood)
If the job stays the way it is now, Sams will almost be never be taken for a raid group or even pug groups. It's kind of sad, because it's like they never learned from when monk was the selfish dps.
I just hope we don't have to wait until the next expansion for them to fix this. I guess it's time to find another dps I enjoy playing to main in Shadowbringers. -
07-04-2019, 05:17 PMZireaelI think Shoha is one of the most garbage thing i ever saw. In my opinion the concept is cool, but it's extremely bad in terms of a dps skill. As you said, in Titania for example you can use two fully stacked Shoha, and that's it. I'd rather prefer a stupid 200 potency ogcd with 30s cooldown, that would have been a better dps increase. Right now sam is quite the trash, being even outdpsed by the ridicolous and broken drg (and he has utility too!) and they also nerfed the senei which was 1250 potency in the media tour, because apparently sam seemed too strong. In truth is garbare, and i hate to say that as a sam main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikira
The lack of hagakure is garbage aswell, because during downtime it force you to start again hitting the boss with extremely weird and awkward openers.
I'm expecting a potency increase in his combo and nothing more to be honest. -
07-04-2019, 10:55 PMEliadil
Regarding the SAM changes...
Imo there is a lot of good things :
- Double Iaijutsu does flow nicely, although the fact that it's currently not affected by SkS will probably make it akward at higher ilvl later
- The AoE rotation is way, way better than it used to be. (Getting rid of TP and the buff refresh is amazing)
- The 40sec Shifu/Jinpu are also great because it gives a greater window of opportunity. I found myself being able to refresh Higanbana with Yukikaze a lot more now since refreshing Jinpu or Shifu wasn't an issue.
- Meikyo having a 60cooldown is also one of the biggest improvement, making Sen generation much easier.
However, I did find some issues with Sam as it is too.
The fact that we cannot get rid of our extra Sen makes it really hard sometimes to get back into the fight after downtime. While it wouldn't be that bad if we had an instant way of getting rid of them, the channeled Iaijutsu makes it harder to time it perfectly (and sometimes I regret being forced to use a Tenka Goken just to be able to execute a decent opener when the boss comes back).
Even though Yukikaze does gives more kenki, I found myself using way less kenki-spenders than before. I understand that Ikishôten is there for us to use either a Senei or two shinten, but the longer cooldown than Hagakure makes it so that sam generate less kenki than before, which means we're less likely to spend it on Shinten or Seigan, two oGCD that really powered up our DPS. Less oGCD usage means less damage overall and... It does feel like we're not doing as much as we did before.
Peoples are already saying that Dragoon and Monk are hitting harder than Samuraï, while I'm not certain that this is the case I do feel like we're not hitting as hard as we used to be. Maybe this is just an impression, maybe this will get fixed later.
Regarding Shoha, for the few times I've been able to use it, the highest numbers I've been able to put out with it is 18k damage at 5 stack with a Crit/DH... So just a bit less than a Crit/DH Yukikaze.
Maybe I was just unlucky, but this does seem like a weak ability for such a huge buildup.
TLDR : I don't feel like I'm hitting like a truck anymore, and I want to get rid of these useless Sen sitting there during downtime. -
07-05-2019, 09:21 AMsilentwindfr
i'm not sure we can say right now that sam hit less hard than monk or dragoon, first because we don't have seen raid stuff yet....
plus i doubt they can beat the burst we can do with double midare+seinen every 2 minutes :x
at 80 i do feel the difference in dps from over 70 but that mostly because we don't have yet the number for the secondary stats nor we are full materia with the BiS, then for now the damage look strange, but it's for everyone...
people will always say that buff is more important, but i feel SE do want us to stop to think like this, that why soo little buff remain. honestly i highly doubt dragoon can do more damage than sam. it bring utility but i think it will be hard to compete in terms of personal dps...
and about shoha.... it's a garbage.... it's the sort of skill that will be changed in the next expansion! too situational and damage wise too little for be really good. to have 15 second of no moving and attack for get a skill at 500 potency is.... utterly bad.