I know we've got a few threads going around but wanted to pen down some of my thoughts and encourage others to do so as well.
PLD:
This job actually seems fine TBH. HP effecting Spirits Within potency is somewhat questionable after removing it from Upheaval. Sheltron may end up being busted at higher item levels as PLD block damage increases.
WAR:
Nascent Flash being tied to Raw is questionable. Quite frankly it would've made more sense to have Nascent Flash replace Inner Beast but include the option to simply be given to a target at reduced potency. The self heal seems rather inconsequential. Onslaught needs Beast gauge cost removed, or potency increase to 225. As it stands 20 BG is worth a minimum of 216 potency.
DRK:
Rework not enough. Remove the DoT from GNB and give it to DRK. Dark Missionary needs to reduce all damage 15%, not just magic. Dark Mind should have 2 effects like Thrill of Battle or Camaflouge, since fluff mitigation was neutered, or apply to all damage types. LD needs to be re-evaluated in some capacity, either make it stronger/less punishing to justify 5 min CD or lower the CD to justify using it more freely.
GNB:
Camaflouge parry buff is questionable, 10% flat reduction is nice but CD may be a bit too long. Need to see this in action to gather much else, it's sounding like it may need some help in DPS but really it's too early to tell without getting our hands on it. Auto shield from combo seems really great.
---- Other thoughts
I find it incredibly odd that GNB gets 3 combos and 2 DoTs while DRK was stripped of everything but Souleater combo, there is more than enough room for DRK to get Scourge back. And please stop with the physical/magic damage type separation, we tank both types in all the different content.
Missing a lot of our old fluff mitigation CDs, which is a bit sad, although I suppose it's somewhat offset by constant 20% damage reduction. It's just going to be hard to "feel" how effective the new tank stance trait is, since we won't really get to see how much damage we'd be taking without it.. Nor will we have any interaction with it (which honestly I may just value higher since WAR doesn't have a lot of oGCDs, fluff mitigation was practically all we had to press between our attacks >.>)
Other than that it's seeming fairly well balanced, just a few minor tweaks to help bring the tanks more in line with one another.
Rambling tank thoughts going into 5.0
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05-31-2019, 01:43 AMwhiskeybravoRambling tank thoughts going into 5.0
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05-31-2019, 03:23 AMBright-Flower
With DRK, didn't it just have two combos, and the one that was removed was the enmity combo? The same thing happened to PLD really, we just have the one combo chain except with two different finishers so I guess it's slightly different, then the aoe combo.
Overall PLD is looking FANTASTIC as far as I'm concerned. I don't play the other tanks enough to really have the big picture grasp of them though. -
05-31-2019, 03:35 AMMaraD_
I think out of the 4 tanks, the one that screams DoTs is DRK. (I dont liek DoTs as much as self buffs, but I agree with them being the one with DoTs, not GNB)
But some food for thought.
WAR specializes in mitigating TBs. (based on frequency/availability of CDs)
PLD specializes in handling raid wide dmg/utility.
GNB and DRK are in the middle, but GNB being slightly better than DRK, due to the limitation of magical dmg, and GNB adding a weak 150 potency shield on top of its 15%.
I forsee DRKs getting a slight buff. (why not 15% magical, and 5% physical, at the LEAST for those moves? Thats STILL not enough, but its SOMETHING)
DRK needing heals (and not shields) after living dead, makes GNB and WARs heals very useful as OTs, and PLD not as much. (THough one can argue PLDs better raid utility than DRK can be a different way to help)
All the tanks help WAR/GNBs invulnerability CDs, so thats always good.
GNBs invulnerability being 7mins while being worse than hallowed ground seems odd. It should at LEAST be 6mins. Even if that wont actually matter in real content, as it has to line up with boss mechanics, it would at least FEEL like it had a reason to have its current downside.
Thats my current thoughts for now.
(other than WARs should have started off with their 2nd AoE, and Overpower comboed off of it instead. But thats a minor gripe. Also the new AoE should have been Steel Cyclone, rather than something new, and removing steel cyclone with decimate) -
05-31-2019, 03:57 AMwhiskeybravoYea, but they used to have 3 combo chains + a DoT in HW. And MP management. So I think DRKs can handle a simple DoT. I guess technically they do have a DoT in Salted Earth, but still, basically all they did was replace Dark Arts spam with Souleater spam lol. It's lv50 PLD all over again. If we can't handle more than one combo chain at level 80 it's time to uninstall. But hey, I don't main DRK so maybe I'm wrong and they don't want or need another combo line or dot at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright-Flower
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05-31-2019, 04:29 AMNivarea
PLD seems really good. Being a bad caster I like the removal of casting times for Requiescat windows and the addition of a gap closer means it's as mobile as other tanks now. Its defensive and utility kit got some buffs (Shelltron, Sentinel) and some nerfs (Cover) but it's still really solid. No problem, natural extension of SB PLD which was already really good.
WAR will also still be good. There is a bit of optimisation thinking back with Inner Chaos in order to be sure to not use it during IR Window and use it in buff windows not covered by IR. Same playstyle otherwise, still extremely good defensively, WAR will probably be a powerhouse again this extension.
GNB seems really fun playstyle wise. It is apparently a bit underpowered as of the Media-tour build, so I hope they'll turn the Potency/recast numbers fine by the time ShB is out. But I like the idea of the ammo combo with oGCD between each skill. The dots seems underwhelming, they need some tune up, in damage or duration. Superbolide is weird, it's flat out a worst HG, and Camouflage might need a bit of an up. Otherwise, it got great utility, Heart of Light and Heart of Stone seems awesome. I'm really interrested in playing it.
DRK seems like it's again the problem child of the Tanks. There are good ideas in the news skills (Edge/Flood, the Clone in a way, the concept of the new Darkside), but I don't really like the direction SE seems to go, by giving the job an IR-like ability in Delirium and the fact that the job will feel a lot slower. I would like another combo finisher, whatever its effect is (could be a SKS buff, a dot, more MP, just something). I also basically want to still have the biggest APM out off all the tanks like in HW and SB. I hate the nerf of Blood Weapon, I will miss the Sks and how even autos had mana regen. The clone seems a bit boring and has no interraction whatsoever with us, not even mana/blood gain, but it looks good, it just need more tunning. Defensive wise, it's similar to SB, it's more than fine, the nerf of Dark Mind is compensated by the buff of Tbn, just that their group shield being only magic is a bit disappointing but not catastrophic.
So... Yeah, DRK still need more tune up I think. I will play it for the msq, in order to make my mind abouy it tho, it has been my main since HW and I want to try it to confirm/infirm my feelings about this new kit. -
05-31-2019, 04:35 AMKaliseNot really. It makes perfect sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Paladin can spend gauge on themselves via OPtron OR on someone else via Intervention.
Dork Knight can use TBN on themselves OR on someone else.
Gunbreaker can use Heart of Stone on themselves OR on someone else.
Warrior can use Raw Intuition to protect themselves OR use Nascent Flash to protect someone else.
Warrior simply has the upside of getting some self-healing when using Nascent Flash to boot.
I'd argue it needs more than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Literally compare it to every other Tanks gap closer:
Paladin: Intervene - 30s CD - 2 Charges - No cost - Deals 200 potency damage.
Dork Knight: Plunge - 30s CD - 2 Charges - No cost - Deals 200 potency damage.
Gunbreaker: Rough Divide - 30s CD - 2 Charges - No cost - Deals 200 potency damage.
Warrior: Onslaught - 10s CD - 20 Beast Gauge cost - Deals 100 potency damage.
Warrior's one not only costs resources, unlike every other Tank. But also deals half the damage that every other tank's gap closer does. Its only benefit is it has a shorter cooldown (But also doesn't have the capacity to store 2 charges) but seriously, unless there's going to be a major focus on moving about the place where Warrior is somehow going to edge out by being able to dash every 10s (Provided they even have the chance to generate enough gauge to maintain that amount of movement) Onslaught is vastly inferior to every other tank whom has identical skills.
Yeah...Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Dark Missionary should simply be an AoE TBN - Possibly at reduced effectiveness to maintain the ~15% AoE mitigation thing (Basically, being a version of Divine Veil/Shake It Off for DRK). Like, why the job that literally has a focus on using a shield on themselves/someone else doesn't simply just have an AoE shield while WARRIOR does I have no idea...
Dark Mind is a tricky one. If you make it both damage types, then it'd essentially just be a second Rampart (It's CD would go up to 90s to match Thrill/Camo)... Maybe make it something more DRK themed? Like DR plus a shield? Or heck, scrap it and make it into a Sole Survivor replacement that allows you to instantly regain 20% HP and some amount of MP. Given that DRK's are annoyed that their self healing is near non-existent as well as questionable MP generation... Kill two birds with one stone and simply bring back the HP + MP gains that SS used to provide.
Camouflage really does seem odd... Like... We all know how fantastic and great Anticipation is... Camouflage is only 20% extra parry chance on top of Anticipation which makes that aspect of it suspect at best...Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Then after that it's just a worse Rampart. Where Rampart guarantees 20% reduction. Camouflage is 50% chance for 30% reduction and 50% chance for 10% reduction (Averaging out to 20% reduction sure... Until any enemy that casts a spell appears because lulparry)
Why not just change it into 100% parry chance and ability to parry spells? Then it's still effectively 20% mitigation, but slightly weaker than Rampart because with Rampart you can RNG Parry stuff. While also maintaining the theme it's going for (Which is seemingly that you're deflecting all incoming attacks like some sort of badass protagonist) -
05-31-2019, 04:44 AMwhiskeybravoThe main reason I consider it questionable is rather silly, I suppose, because it's 2 buttons instead of one. And because quite frankly Raw Intuition, minus the auto-crit from flank/rear, was at least a mitigation CD compared to Thrill/Conv. Mitigation > healing bonus when it doesn't affect half the heals anyways. And I know Thrill/Conv were used together most of the time, it just seems really odd considering it went from PLD shared action to a WAR exclusive action. We lost the HP/healing bonus from a stance we didn't use to begin with and they gave it back to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
It also kind of screws WAR up even more for level synced content. Berserk was bad enough but now you have to wait until level 56 for Raw Intuition to gain an effect you used to get at level 35. And this is minor, I know, but still makes me question their thought process. IMO they should've kept the DR on IB until it upgraded to FC, and introduced Raw around the same time as FC to offset the difference. Or even better, they could've just left that mechanic in place all the way through and had FC give us the damage reduction buff. I mean, I don't think it would change that much since we aren't likely to forgo a burst window to save for chain mitigation, and then Nascent could've just been our support (which would have to cost gauge to be balanced). Or even as a third option, Raw upgrades to Nascent which could be used on self or party.
Those are mostly the reasons I find Nascent Flash questionable. -
05-31-2019, 04:53 AMKaliseNo different than PLD having OPtron and Intervention as different buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
It also means that you can try and use Nascent Flash purely for the self healing too. Which, if we get more Eureka-esk content, will no doubt be as invaluable as Storm's Path being based on damage and Steel Cyclone is now (RIP in pepperoni both of those features...)
Probably would help if you didn't think of it as WAR now taking Conv but rather WAR regaining their Defiance boost in skill form. Since, for a while, +HP and +Healing has been their defensive bonus for being in Tank Stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
(Also, I'm odd and generally just use Thrill > Shake It Off because then it's just a 20% heal with a 12% shield and healers won't end up wasting any skills healing up the superfluous extra HP that Thrill gives) -
05-31-2019, 05:18 AMwhiskeybravoTo be fair, I never liked that aspect of it either. Probably because I'm a controller user.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
Well, this is another reason I find it questionable. Aside from the whopping 2 GCDs worth of self healing (granted, they will be CDH >.>) it seems so silly to toss the support on a party member that isn't even going to need it just to get 2, maybe 3, GCDs worth of self heals. PLD wouldn't toss Intervention on a random party member during a large pull, DRK wouldn't toss TBN on anyone but himself in that situation either. GNB will probably regen himself.Quote:
It also means that you can try and use Nascent Flash purely for the self healing too. Which, if we get more Eureka-esk content, will no doubt be as invaluable as Storm's Path being based on damage and Steel Cyclone is now (RIP in pepperoni both of those features...)
Again, it's all pretty minor nitkpicking from me.. But nitpick I will lol. I think the heal makes it more controversial than if it didn't have it. All long time WARs remember the Bloodbath nostalgia, to see self heals on Nascent like that just makes me think "but whhhyyyyy"
At least that's better than strictly using it to buff UpheavalQuote:
(Also, I'm odd and generally just use Thrill > Shake It Off because then it's just a 20% heal with a 12% shield and healers won't end up wasting any skills healing up the superfluous extra HP that Thrill gives)
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05-31-2019, 02:46 PMKolsykol
Am I the only person on the planet who actually enjoyed Dark Arts, lol?
Pretty much everyone else playing DRK seems to hate it. -
05-31-2019, 02:51 PMKabooaPushing a button to make another button better is generally removed between expansions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
I would have found Dark Arts more compelling if they were actual said 'Arts' of the magic they use.
Unmend, Abyssal Drain, Salted Earth, etc. -
05-31-2019, 02:59 PMKolsykolNot saying that it was perfect, but I sorta liked the flare surrounding it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
It just made me feel as if I am using dark magic to power up my attacks.
I just hit the dummy for a while without it and it felt very boring and like something was missing imo. -
05-31-2019, 03:05 PMKabooaI'm a little skeptical. The lack of being able to control the shadow clone hampers the fun factor to me. I don't mind lower actions per minute so long as there's sufficient weight behind it, but at a glance, I'm not getting that sense from the toolkit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
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06-02-2019, 04:04 PMManeeshaNothing really tricky if one would to look at warrior's raw intuition changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
i don't get why devs wanna keep the "magic only" def skills on drk and give him 1 more with dark missionary, given that paladin can block all types of attacks since stormblood ( as far as i remember he couldn't block magic before..)
on dark arts, i don't think people really disliked it per-se, but disliked that that was the only mp dump(outside of aoe encounters) and u had to spam it that much, in hw no one really complained about dark arts and the animation in it self looks actually pretty cool. -
06-02-2019, 04:29 PMdragoeletepeople didnt mind dark arts in HW because it was only attached to like 3 or 4 skills and most of those were ogcd... so you weren't spamming it any where near as much. compared to now where your spamming it pretty much every other combo as well as on some ogcd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maneesha
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06-02-2019, 05:08 PMKaliseExcept that Raw Intuition is a variant of Sheltron/The Blackest Night/Heart of Stone. With a low CD for some short term (5-6s) mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maneesha
While Dark Mind is a variant of Thrill of Battle/Camouflage with a modest CD (90s for ToB/Camo and 60s for DM)
Dark Mind currently has a shorter CD than ToB/Camo/Rampart because it only works vs a single damage type. If you made it work against both damage types, it'd be OP on its current 60s CD. But if you bumped it up to a similar CD to the other similar skills, then it would be literally Rampart (20% damage reduction for 20s with 90s CD)
That's where it becomes tricky. Since, obviously, you wouldn't want to just give DRK a skill that is just a second Rampart, you'd want to give them something unique. -
06-02-2019, 05:47 PMDuskane
well i dont think Dark missionary should just be copy pasted version of GNB
10% physical mitigation and 20% magical mitigation what i would put it as
i understand Drk is the magic tank but it should Excel in magical mitigation not be limited to it -
06-02-2019, 06:14 PMFreyyy
In HW Dark Arts wasn't nearly spammed as much as in SB, and we were totally fine with this iteration. Our high APM back then came from other oGCDs like Low Blow procs, the old Dark Passenger (that used to have way more potency than it does now and costed half a DA making it priority over DA even in single target), and the old Reprisal as well. All of that combined with Blood Weapon's haste, C&S and some Dark Arts when we had nothing else to spend MP on made the class much more fun. We didn't need to spam DA to have high APM. Then came SB.
HW had that really nice priority system on MP spending abilities. It was DA C&S > DP > DASE, DP going first in AoE situations. Going back to such a system could be very good for the job. It just felt right back then. -
06-02-2019, 06:15 PMIzsha
I'm not terribly worried about it really. The vast majority of all aoes in the game are magic by a wide margin. You will also be paired with another tank. Pld has a shield and mitigation, but both on longer cooldowns. War just has a shield. Gun has mitigation. In most cases you will rotate your party mit woth your co tank. Drk grabs the magic, other tank grabs phy. It is highly unlikely there will be a fight that only has phy aoes and SE is aware of this. Historically there are almost exclusively magic aoes. This skill will be highly valuable based on precedent. Ignoring precedent is a bit illigocical when we have 5 years if consistent magic aoes to look at now.
As for personal mit, drk mind is 10/60 20% magic vs a 10/90 all 20%. Also a ok trade. The frequency of a CD is the most important part of it. (Looking at you people that hate holmgang). I see a lot of people focusing on the magic limitation and gloss over the unparralelled recast. It's the fastest CD for any tank once you get past the shelltron/tbn/ib clones. This thing will always be ready for a buster or any magic damage really. It is a powerful mitigation tool. And again most fights lean on magic or have a mix. You use tbn and your other cds for phy busters. Magic for magic. There are very few existing examples where drk would not be able to use its upcoming CD suite effectively. That is unlikely to change. -
06-02-2019, 06:40 PMNyneSwordzGonna miss Dark Knight's Power Slash and War's Butcher's Block. They had great animations.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Couldn't agree more about Onslaught needing cost removed or some other adjustments. = ) -
06-02-2019, 06:45 PMShurrikhanI would have preferred to have back a variety of oGCDs to press for my APM, as per Heavensward DRK, but DRK has easily become the least interesting tank of the four for me with the removal of DA, Attack Speed on BW, the ability to turn mass-pulls against weak mobs into a no-healable field of carnage, and most of its CD-synergies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
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06-02-2019, 07:17 PMManeeshaits a good pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Kalise
I do agree with you and personally never had an issue with drk's mitigation/cd's and yes usually with 2 tanks you cycle through the cd's and plan ahead when a cd is used. I simply don't understand why they want to keep their "magic tank" theme, after they made paladin being able to deal with all types of dmg (where he struggled with magical one,since block didn't effect magic), warrior never had issues with it (thou he had a skill which could only counter phys. type) and want to keep drk of being the "magic tank" (or being the only one who has cd's to deal with magic only abilities, while the other tanks can deal with both types at the same time with every skill they have). One could say GNB is now the counterpart to DRK, because he has a def skill which is based on parry and 10% flat dmg reduction, but i am not a fan of this skill because its only a 50/50 if it parry's or doesn't, but he only has this 1 skill and drk has 2 which only deal with magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Sure most of the raid wide aoe's were almost always magical, likely it wont change, still if a drk were to go into an encounter (if the devs decidet to design it this way) with only phys. raid wide aoe's, he couldn't provide any raid support again (i know its pure speculation, which might never happen)
Either they are more consequent with the ideology of "magic def tanks"/"phys. def tanks"(in making 2 tanks phys.def tanks and 2 magic def tanks) or they completely abolish it.
Yes i am a bit nit-picky on this :o