The Nothing Better To Do But Speculate Thread - Tanks

Starting from earliest to latest.

Disclaimer: entirely possible I missed something during talky talky parts that explains these.

Gunbreaker
-I am the hype
-Pretty standard so far. Pull attack, gap closer.
-Have a Regen, buddy.
-You're taking too much damage, this is an Intervention.
-BAKURESTU
-Some sort of Bullet Ground. Something that probably reduces your health to 1 but makes you impervious to most attacks.
-BAKURETSU
-LA LA LA
-One round per enhanced combo line?
-ECKSU KALIBAAAAAAAAA

Warrior
-What's a stance
-These abilities aren't locked to the same button anymore, George. You need to put Fell Cleave back on your bar.
-I WILL BE YOUR SHIELD. AXE.
-Because everyone loves getting AoE combo lines. 20 BG is 20 BG though.
-Wastes a GCD of IR.
-Pretty sure we've seen this before.
-George, different buttons, remember?

Paladin
-Hey guys wait up for me I can dash too.
-Still got Total eclipse? Okay.
-Because everyone loves getting aoe combo lines.
-I weaved something. Like all the healer segments you have no context for this.
-Dragoons get a fourth combo, why not me too? Or maybe I'm upgraded Spirits Within.
-Wait, was that Riot Sword? Totally different from Riot Blade.
-Cast Times are for Not-Clerics.
-Holiest of Holies is here, now leave us alone.
-I'm not saying this is innuendo, but I am saying that I have assumed a position, and you just got penetrated by a giant sword. I'm probably that 800 aoe Potency that got leaked.

Dark Knight
-Poster boy hyyyyyyyyyype
-Ultimatum is a good skill.
-I still have unleash.
-BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS LOOKING FORWARD TO AN AOE COMBO LINE.
-Hey, remember that one job ability I never got?
-Huh, you get a timer. What's it do?
-Blud Weppin. +10 blood per weaponskill.
-I'M ONE OF THE 3K MP SKILLS THAT GOT LEAKED BUT WHICH OOOONE!
-Spending MP gives timer for something.
-KAGE BUNSHIN NO JUTSU
-Timer based on that timer?
-Souleater gives 20 blood? Dang, you overcapped by like 20 earlier.
-Dark Arts Carve and Spit, minus the Dark Arts.
-I heard you like Inner Release. How about INNER LETTING GO
-Fellcleave. Fellcleave. Fellcleave.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

-Wastes a GCD of IR.

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Yeeaaaa...... That made me cringe. But I figure they use abilities a bit slower than we normally would in order to show off the effects.

Otherwise, glad to see DRK got some serious attention, I may actually be inclined to level it over GNB (I know my co-tank wants to level GNB anyways)

Just watch when the expac goes live, all of the DPS still don't use their aggro mitigation skills because they don't read the tooltips and don't what role actions are and just happen to rip aggro from tanks because tanks don't use high enmity AoEs to hold aggro because it's a DPS loss and they bring back aggro combos just so the BLM doesn't rip aggro from tanks, especially DRK mains...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Just watch when the expac goes live, all of the DPS still don't use their aggro mitigation skills because they don't read the tooltips and don't what role actions are and just happen to rip aggro from tanks because tanks don't use high enmity AoEs to hold aggro because it's a DPS loss and they bring back aggro combos just so the BLM doesn't rip aggro from tanks, especially DRK mains...

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They mentioned something about that how the tank stances will generate a lot of aggro. Of course we'll have to monitor this situation, they always do some adjustments in the following weeks anyways. But with this change I can't see them bringing back aggro combos. Every ability becomes an aggro combo just by using tank stance, if there are issues all they'll have to do is change whatever modifier the stance applies.

But yea, I was already told no more help managing aggro from my DPS lol

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

But yea, I was already told no more help managing aggro from my DPS lol

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And the BLM still manages to rip threat from tanks no matter the adjustments... It's going to happen...

I wouldn't be too surprised if Fell Cleave is only usable during Inner Release and replaces Inner Beast for the duration.

Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone had different sounds and particle effects, which is Curious.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone had different sounds and particle effects, which is Curious.

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I'm not looking too much into that, it seemed like several skills got some animation makeovers

With the way they phrased things with the new tank stance, I wonder if they'll get rid of 'high enmity' abilities and just have that as an on/off switch.

For example if they make tank stance give enough enmity they could get rid of flash and just give gladiator total eclipse at the level we currently get flash.

I have a feeling this may REDUCE enmity issues in general because there's really no reason for tanks in dungeons to not have their tank stance on at all times now, and in raids/trials tanks won't be going without tank stance for the sake of more damage. If provoke/shirk still works, then even off tanks can get good enmity without needing to keep the stance on and risk pulling from the MT.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

With the way they phrased things with the new tank stance, I wonder if they'll get rid of 'high enmity' abilities and just have that as an on/off switch.

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I think that's exactly what they said they were doing during the livestream. No more baseline enmity bonus on any action, but tank stance gives bonus enmity to every action.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

I think that's exactly what they said they were doing during the livestream. No more baseline enmity bonus on any action, but tank stance gives bonus enmity to every action.

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Yeah, so I'm expecting flash to go away, as it would feel...unnecessary in the new system. Currently you flash for an enmity lead then total eclipse for damage (or just TE if not tanking) and in the new system, just doesn't feel like flash has a place, tank will just turn on enmity stance then go to town with TE.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

For example if they make tank stance give enough enmity they could get rid of flash and just give gladiator total eclipse at the level we currently get flash.

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But i like my flash, blinding mf's is cool.
Now seriously, i dont see a issue with flash, they can keep it for the blind effect aloun, i even use from time to time dark arts>dark passenger for the blind (as a deff cd) in low lvl duty's where u lack some of the higher lvl actions which help u not get rekt.

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Originally Posted by Maneesha

But i like my flash, blinding mf's is cool.
Now seriously, i dont see a issue with flash, they can keep it for the blind effect aloun, i even use from time to time dark arts>dark passenger for the blind (as a deff cd) in low lvl duty's where u lack some of the higher lvl actions which help u not get rekt.

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They could keep it but it just seems like an easy target to cull if they want to keep button bloat down as new abilities are added.

Also note to self: Take the namazu helmet off when I log in next.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Just watch when the expac goes live, all of the DPS still don't use their aggro mitigation skills because they don't read the tooltips and don't what role actions are and just happen to rip aggro from tanks because tanks don't use high enmity AoEs to hold aggro because it's a DPS loss and they bring back aggro combos just so the BLM doesn't rip aggro from tanks, especially DRK mains...

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DPS won't have enmity tools any morex they've been removed.
NIN has also lost Smoke Screen and Shade Walker.

warrior didn't get much shown seems like all tanks get a intervention now just so they can work with this "we set MT and OT but it doesn't matter" idea
but did see that over head swing of War which is nice that they are giving tanks more aoe
especially paladin so the job wont be dreadful in dungeons.

Further musings and implications

Kage Bunshin No Jutsu "Uses your cooldowns / abilities"

New AoE combo, branches from unleash, builds 20 blood.

Abyssal Drain nowhere in sight.

Shadowclone pops up.
Abyssal Drains.

Abyssal Drain is now an OGCD?

No that doesn't parse. it's clearly using GCDs unless all blood is OGCD now.

Warrior Intervention appears to be Bloodbath. The life leech sound is heard on the two weaponskills immediately following its use, while a couple orbs are sen surrounding the warrior.

There are some possibilities here.

-Warrior gives health to the target in question, and receives Leeching to get it back.
-Warrior leeches health, restoring their own and the targets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

With the way they phrased things with the new tank stance, I wonder if they'll get rid of 'high enmity' abilities and just have that as an on/off switch.

For example if they make tank stance give enough enmity they could get rid of flash and just give gladiator total eclipse at the level we currently get flash.

I have a feeling this may REDUCE enmity issues in general because there's really no reason for tanks in dungeons to not have their tank stance on at all times now, and in raids/trials tanks won't be going without tank stance for the sake of more damage. If provoke/shirk still works, then even off tanks can get good enmity without needing to keep the stance on and risk pulling from the MT.

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*BLM rips aggro from tank regardless* This is why we need those high enmity burst combos still... the BLM keeps ripping aggro and Shirk is on cooldown... :(

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

They could keep it but it just seems like an easy target to cull if they want to keep button bloat down as new abilities are added.

Also note to self: Take the namazu helmet off when I log in next.

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I honestly prefer new traits over new 4-5 new abilities per expansion...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

*BLM rips aggro from tank regardless* This is why we need those high enmity burst combos still... the BLM keeps ripping aggro and Shirk is on cooldown... :(

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We'll have to see, with the changes to stances and enmity just having the enmity stance on and doing the tank's damage rotation may well be enough to keep ahead of dps.

As for traits vs abilities, I don't think we need to remove and add abilities just for the sake of having new ones, but natural extensions to existing ones or changes that fit with overall changes in job design IMO are fine. For example the changes to tank stance and enmity kind of render savage blade, rage of halone and flash as unnecessary in their current forms. So either removing them to make room for new spells or reworking them like they apparently are with RoH makes sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

*BLM rips aggro from tank regardless* This is why we need those high enmity burst combos still... the BLM keeps ripping aggro and Shirk is on cooldown... :(

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With the new provoke now giving you and aggro lead instead of just equal, you have the solution to that problem.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

With the new provoke now giving you and aggro lead instead of just equal, you have the solution to that problem.

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If that ends up being true when embargo lifts then they have taken the skill out of tanking and they officially have made tanks just DPS with lots of health... no aggro combos to alternate between, tank stance practically gives no real benefits, and now Provoke basically replacing aggro combos...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

If that ends up being true when embargo lifts then they have taken the skill out of tanking and they officially have made tanks just DPS with lots of health... no aggro combos to alternate between, tank stance practically gives no real benefits, and now Provoke basically replacing aggro combos...

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I didn't know pressing a combo at the start of the fight once per fight was high skill. Possibly the source of the majority of all our enmity output without a stifling penalty and abhorrent shift in gameplay has no practical benefit? GG tanks dead role.



/s

As it stands now enmity may as well not exist anymore, just have enemies target the blue party member by default.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

We'll have to see, with the changes to stances and enmity just having the enmity stance on and doing the tank's damage rotation may well be enough to keep ahead of dps.

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It depends on how high the Emnity multiplier is. If it's merely 2-3 times the emnity I can definitely picture situations where undergeared, poorly performing tanks do less than 33-50% of the damage of a skilled, geared SAM or BLM and aggro is ripped fairly early, the tank vokes and aggro is ripped again before the cd is up.

If it's more than 4 times, then we end up like WoW where emnity simply isn't a factor and things just glue to the main tank.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I didn't know pressing a combo at the start of the fight once per fight was high skill.

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Then maybe the fact we don't need to use emnity combos should have been looked at rather than deleting it entirely? I'm not a fan of losing tools and gaining nothing new in return. But we can't be certain of that, so we'll have to wait and see.

I'm thinking the thought process behind removing enmity combos and stance dancing was because at higher level raiding, those are ideally never used anyway.

WAR goes in and pulls the boss in Defiance + Unchained, pops Equilibrium and switches to Deliverance and ideally never switches back to Defiance or use an enmity combo, so I guess they figured they might as well just remove all that to greatly alleviate button bloat while still having room for new skills.

It lowers the skill floor, making things easier for new tanks, while barely changing anything for high level players.

Win/win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I'm thinking the thought process behind removing enmity combos and stance dancing was because at higher level raiding, those are ideally never used anyway.

WAR goes in and pulls the boss in Defiance + Unchained, pops Equilibrium and switches to Deliverance and ideally never switches back to Defiance or use an enmity combo, so I guess they figured they might as well just remove all that to greatly alleviate button bloat while still having room for new skills.

It lowers the skill floor, making things easier for new tanks, while barely changing anything for high level players.

Win/win.

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Using WAR as the example is basically no contest for other tanks, because WAR just wins by default... God Kefka required tank stance and usage of aggro combo to make him stay glued to the tank otherwise he would take out the healer(s) due to how squishy they are and Heartless Angel, and if you had NIN then it wasn't as big of an issue, but because enrage timers exist just to please the people who use parsers and grieve those who don't even have access to that kind of knowledge...

I do believe that tank balance is important but just balancing fights around enrage timers is bad way to do it if all you need is 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 DPS which is basically most savage mode and EX fights... If a fight is designed around tank swapping but also has an enrage timer then that is probably bad design from a players point of view but I already know I'm in the minority so no one cares about that unless DPS is involved... They could design fights around bosses just being outright immune to Provoke like world bosses but then people with parsers will complain about their DPS... Not whole lot of fights are designed with 1 specific scenario in mind that isn't "group up and hit the boss until it dies before enrage happens" because they try to combine most those ideas into 1 fight and that's where the imbalance comes from...

They just need to design fights around at least 1 or 2 scenarios over jamming all of these scenarios into 1 scenario that makes everyone avoid those encounters no matter how good the carrot on the stick is... It's not worth making everyone miserable just because someone asked for tanking, healing, and DPSing easier... make them earn that skill...