observation of Phoenix from the job preview trailer for 5.0 smn

Many seem to think Phoenix will work just like bahamut. Some even think maybe we might have to pick and choose which to use.

However, I rewatched the trailer and something stuck out to me.

When using Phoenix, the smn casted Akh Morn and Ruin and ...
nothing happened.

That is, akh morn didn't hit the target, nor did a ruin shoot out of the smn.

INSTEAD, Phoenix made a fire pillar (akh morn) and did a blast of flame when the ruin should have come out.

Methinks this means Phoenix replaces certain or even all skills used by the summoner for the duration.

So this means Phoenix is quite different than bahamut.
In a sense, phoenix is like a trance, but instead of just making your abilities buffed, Phoenix itself is the source of them.

Bahamut on the other hand does his own thing. He does certain thing when you cast a spell and you tell him to cast his special move. But he does not replace your cast.

What do you think?

edit:

I watch it again. Now I am not so sure.
Tbh I didn't see ruin bolts when Bahamut was out either.
There was some abilites that had animations shown and others that did not.

Good observations.

Gameplay wise, our summons enhancing our abilities is pretty cool, but also thematically for Summoner I think it makes a lot of sense.

It looked like, at least to me that there was a spell that was letting the summoner directly control phoenix.

Also, it looks like you only transition into Phoenix after Bahamut. As or just before Bahamut was dismissed, a Phoenix tail appeared on the job gauge, then he summoned Phoenix and the whole gauge transitioned.
I'm thinking the whole rotation has been streamlined as well, because that certainly didn't take 5 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Also, it looks like you only transition into Phoenix after Bahamut. As or just before Bahamut was dismissed, a Phoenix tail appeared on the job gauge, then he summoned Phoenix and the whole gauge transitioned.
I'm thinking the whole rotation has been streamlined as well, because that certainly didn't take 5 minutes.

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Hard to tell if phoenix phase is after or before bahamut, phoenix appear late in the trailer more likely because it's a new summon, when SMN appear they already has their bahamut gauge fill and they don't let pheonix gauge run out also we don't see DWT in that rotation, 2 aetherflow won't change colour when use

So it'll be either bahamut phase to trigger pheonix phase or phoenix phase will be replace DWT and we need to sumkon phoenix 2 times to trigger bahamut phase

I actually think that flame pillar is from the smn not from phoenix. If you look, phoenix moves forward in the exact same manner as it does when the SMN was using other attacks previous, kinda like Bahamut's wrym Wave.

In the Benchmark trailer the Summoner uses trance but a phoenix head appears above the summoners head.

Given that Bahamut came from Garuda and then the SMN used Ifrit which spawned Phoenix, Seems to me that the trances and Demis are based on the egi that was summoned - Ie - Garuda > Bahamut Ifrit > Phoenix.

Where then does that leave Titan and topaz carbuncle. We know that they are being reworked as Tanking pets are impossible if the Egi cannot die. Perhaps then there is a third Demi (unlikely i think, but something to consider) Else it may be that Titan is getting removed, but that doesn't make sense when they said there was a rework.

I think that egi switch just to show us that now we can instant cast them

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I actually think that flame pillar is from the smn not from phoenix. If you look, phoenix moves forward in the exact same manner as it does when the SMN was using other attacks previous, kinda like Bahamut's wrym Wave.

In the Benchmark trailer the Summoner uses trance but a phoenix head appears above the summoners head.

Given that Bahamut came from Garuda and then the SMN used Ifrit which spawned Phoenix, Seems to me that the trances and Demis are based on the egi that was summoned - Ie - Garuda > Bahamut Ifrit > Phoenix.

Where then does that leave Titan and topaz carbuncle. We know that they are being reworked as Tanking pets are impossible if the Egi cannot die. Perhaps then there is a third Demi (unlikely i think, but something to consider) Else it may be that Titan is getting removed, but that doesn't make sense when they said there was a rework.

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Interesting take.
It could simply be that Titan/Topaz acts as a support/buffing/mitigating pet, and so a 'trance' form of it wouldn't really serve much of a purpose, and would be used infrequently or just in solo for utility.
Meanwhile Garuda>Bahamut and Ifrit>Phoenix would make up your main DPS rotation.

Looking over the trailer:

10:34 What appears to be the new Aetherflow skill that deals damage and fills your Aetherflow.

At 10:36, the Summoner casts something, but nothing flies to the target, instead Garuda-Egi just blasts it with a wind blast... Could this be how Egi skills are used? With the Summoner doing a cast animation for them?

10:38 Cast animation to Summon Bahamut. Hopefully no animation locking 'cause that'd suck >.> Also appears to lose 2 seconds of duration before he spawns...

10:44 looks like a 1s cast Enkindle? With the Bahamut wing graphic normally seen with Ruin IV?

10:47 looks like the new Ruin spell by the power of TRIANGLES I smite you! (Interestingly, the corners of the Triangle are Red, Green and Blue. If this is supposed to represent the Egi we are able to use... Shiva-Egi replacing Titan-Egi?)

10:51 seems to be a new Tri-Disaster animation. More Triangles! Also, green swirls.

10:54 Ruin IV. Unchanged by the looks. Followed by another Akh Morn.

10:58 After Bahamut goes away, Summoner is left with a Gauge that has 2 Phoenix Feathers on it. (Prior to Bahamut it was just a gauge with the standard "Bahamut Ready" thing) - Suggests Phoenix is a direct replacement for DWT? With 2x Phoenix = 1x Bahamut?

11:03 Summoning Ifrit seemed to make him slash the target when he was spawning.

11:04 Painflare still exists and is still an oGCD that consumes Aetherflow.

11:05 Another casted spell that makes Ifrit swipe at the target, followed by Fester which again, still oGCD, still consumes Aetherflow.

11:10 A spell that refills Aetherflow? But shoots out 3 bolts and has a large explosion suggesting it's more powerful than the one used at the start of the clip? Will Summoners finally have more than 1 way to gain Aetherflow?

11:11 Cast time for Summon Phoenix (Including losing 2 seconds of duration before the thing even spawns -.-)

11:16 Casts a spell, Phoenix slings an explosion at the target.

11:18 Rise up into the air and fling a Fireball at the target, Phoenix also tosses a basic attack at the target in this time (I.e. Wyrmwave equivalent)

11:21 Enkindle with cast time again, with Phoenix wings graphic instead.

So... Initial thoughts are that there seems to be a lot more casting time now? With Bahamut/Phoenix having cast times for their summoning, with pet abilities seemingly needed to be actually cast by the Summoner (I wonder if they're oGCD or not?)

Potentially with a hint to getting Shiva-Egi instead of Titan-Egi!?

Outside of that, seems like some neat things. Such as Bahamut/Phoenix phases not being "Just mash Ruin II/IV". Also with possibly a bit more focus on you making your Summon cast stuff.

Bahamut and Phoenix seem to act the same. When an spell is cast they do a basic attack and have an enkindle. I'm ignoring what the summoner is casting, because it could just be a new spell, and focus on what Demi's are doing when it is cast.

It looked to me like Phoenix was essentially replacing dreadwyrm trance. Which I like, I hated DW trance cause it put the focus on the caster rather than the pet, if Phoenix is the new DW trance, even if it works exactly the same as DW trance, it’s better because it’s a pet, not the caster doing it.

Here's what I gleaned from the live letter:

-Pet's are no longer actually pets but rather an animation effect that just appears near your character. This results in a few major things:
-Pets are no longer targetable and can't be effected by mechanics or take damage.
-Pets no longer have actions. All pet actions are now normal actions which must be executed by the summoner. All pet AI actions were removed. (Sic, Obey, etc.)
-Pets no longer have a separate GCD, meaning all pet actions are now subject to the normal GCD. (No more auto-attacks or wyrmwaves)

As for Phoenix and bahamut, it seemed like what was going on to me was bahamut was replacing garuda, and phoenix was replacing ifrit but both essentially had the same function in rotation. Makes me wonder if there is also a third demi-primal that replaces Titan.

If each demi-primal is on a separate timer, then I could see the new rotation revolving around summoning all three egis in sequence in order to continuously bring out a demi-primal. Sort of like bards rotation of cycling through songs.

Looks like Freeze now gives stack of 3 umbral ice from the railer if im not mistaken?

Flare-Flare-Freeze-Fire3-Fire4 x3-Bliz3-Bliz4- Thunder-Foul-Flare. Was the rotation used to show it off. Guessing there was a few new skills I missed but interesting if Freeze now has a use.

I like the direction they are going, SMN should be relying on its Demi summons for damage rather then dishing it all out our selves. Now the class will be focused around Bahamut and Phoenix. In the future there will obviously be more Demi’s and a less reliance on egis since they are now diminished to one skill now.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi

Here's what I gleaned from the live letter:

-Pet's are no longer actually pets but rather an animation effect that just appears near your character. This results in a few major things:
-Pets are no longer targetable and can't be effected by mechanics or take damage.
-Pets no longer have actions. All pet actions are now normal actions which must be executed by the summoner. All pet AI actions were removed. (Sic, Obey, etc.)
-Pets no longer have a separate GCD, meaning all pet actions are now subject to the normal GCD. (No more auto-attacks or wyrmwaves)

As for Phoenix and bahamut, it seemed like what was going on to me was bahamut was replacing garuda, and phoenix was replacing ifrit but both essentially had the same function in rotation. Makes me wonder if there is also a third demi-primal that replaces Titan.

If each demi-primal is on a separate timer, then I could see the new rotation revolving around summoning all three egis in sequence in order to continuously bring out a demi-primal. Sort of like bards rotation of cycling through songs.

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If they added Demi-Alexander or something as a Titan upgrade, I think they would've shown it. I imagine that his skill will just be the defensive that SMN hasn't had.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

In the Benchmark trailer the Summoner uses trance but a phoenix head appears above the summoners head.

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Yea, I noticed that too, interesting.

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Originally Posted by Milea

Yea, I noticed that too, interesting.

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yeah, i saw it too, that make a theory about phoenix replace DWT may turn out wrong, so i think about other theory, maybe DWT still in game, and we don't need 2 DWT to trigger demi summon anymore, also we might have a new trance, phoenix trance

so our rotation might turn into something like DWT > demi bahamut (trigger phoenix upon release) > phoenix trance > demi phoenix (also trigger bahamut upon release), also phoenix might be a way to apply a 3rd DoT for SMN

I hope phoenix trance has a cool other effect.

Dwt gives 10% more damage. I hope phoenix trance not the same thing but has a cool newish effect.

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Originally Posted by Milea

I hope phoenix trance has a cool other effect.

Dwt gives 10% more damage. I hope phoenix trance not the same thing but has a cool newish effect.

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There was something that looked like it could be Phoenix Trance(If the trances are named after the primal's title, Rebirth Trance?) in the benchmark trailer during the fight against Titania, where the SMN did the Deathflare animation and Phoenix appeared behind them for a second like Bahamut's head does for DWT.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

10:44 looks like a 1s cast Enkindle? With the Bahamut wing graphic normally seen with Ruin IV?

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That's what commanding Ahk Morn always has looked like.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

10:47 looks like the new Ruin spell by the power of TRIANGLES I smite you! (Interestingly, the corners of the Triangle are Red, Green and Blue. If this is supposed to represent the Egi we are able to use... Shiva-Egi replacing Titan-Egi?)

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That's Tri-Bind.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

10:51 seems to be a new Tri-Disaster animation. More Triangles! Also, green swirls.

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Thats the same Tri-Disaster animation.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

11:03 Summoning Ifrit seemed to make him slash the target when he was spawning.

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Thats Ifrit's auto-attack animation, and it happens several times without commanding.

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Originally Posted by Zetsumei_Tsunarashi;

-Pet's are no longer actually pets but rather an animation effect that just appears near your character. This results in a few major things:
-Pets are no longer targetable and can't be effected by mechanics or take damage.
-Pets no longer have actions. All pet actions are now normal actions which must be executed by the summoner. All pet AI actions were removed. (Sic, Obey, etc.)
-Pets no longer have a separate GCD, meaning all pet actions are now subject to the normal GCD. (No more auto-attacks or wyrmwaves)

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Pets still auto attack even if they don't use command skills on their own. Garuda Auto attacks before being replaced by Demi-Bahamut, and Ifrit attacks several times. Weather or not pets can be commanded to auto-attack different targets or if they will be auto-linked to whatever the summoner has targeted remains to be seen. Hopefully the pet command system will address the only real problem pets have ever had, which is the internal cool down on pet attacks interfering with said pet commands.

Demi Bahamut absolutly still uses Wyrmwave, but it does not seem to use it on OGDC moves like tri-disaster anymore, only on the SMN's GDC actions, so either Wyrmwave has a longer internal cool down, only activates on GDC actions, or it only activates when the SMN inflicts direct damage, which Tri-Bind and Ruin IV both do while Tri-Disaster does not.

Lv. 72 appears to be when "Firebird Trance" replaces Dreadwyrm Trance while adding two Phoenix related abilities...we don't get another set of abilities until Lv.80.

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Originally Posted by Len

Lv. 72 appears to be when "Firebird Trance" replaces Dreadwyrm Trance while adding two Phoenix related abilities...we dont't get another set of abilities until Lv.80.

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Based on the trait leaks floating around (assuming they're real), we're getting no new buttons at all actually. All the things we do get replace existing skills somewhere. Ruination is getting enhancements via two traits, one doubling its duration, the other allowing it to be spread by Bane (meaning Tri-Bind probably works with it now). The Egi Assault actions also guarantee a Further Ruin proc when used. That covers the 74-78 gap apparently.

From those leaks as well, Firebird Trance augments our main filler spells (Ruin III and Tri-Bind, renamed Outburst) into new spells for its duration and has a similar instant-cast effect and Tri-Disaster reset mechanic as DWT. It is potentially is upgraded into Summon Phoenix at 80 too based on the trailer. We didn't see DWT at all either, so I'm curious what's going on there too. Summon Phoenix for its part is pretty much a copy-pasted Bahamut with an extra weak HoT aura from the traits so far, but it could do more than that.

There's a lot of ways it could go, really. It could be a long chain of DWT x1-2 -> Bahamut -> FBT and/or Phoenix, or simply alternate between a DWT/Bahamut and a FBT/Phoenix window, whether the trances are merged with their respective Summons or not. Given we don't see anything listed about our pre 70 traits, it's not guaranteed which is going to happen. The only thing I feel comfortable saying will remain true is that it's likely they're sticking to a 2 minute cooldown rotation for the entire process, given what they did in Stormblood.

The other big thing is Energy Drain/Siphon straight up replace Aetherflow for SMN specifically, basically saving one weave in the process. I suspect they're weaker Fester/Painflare equivalents now, and probably share a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Len

Lv. 72 appears to be when "Firebird Trance" replaces Dreadwyrm Trance while adding two Phoenix related abilities...we dont't get another set of abilities until Lv.80.

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Yup, from what's been floating around, the ones in between are traits by the looks of it, mainly impacting Ruination and Tri-bind's replacement, and then later you get a HoT at 80, along with some more abilities complementing the Phoenix, presumably because that's when it becomes available.

Pending the full picture, I'm pretty tempted by SMN as a main for 5.0.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

We didn't see DWT at all either, so I'm curious what's going on there too.

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I'm hoping they've not rid of DWT and Deathflare. Having two distinctive trances associated with each of the "demi" summons, particularly if alternated between each other, would be a lot of fun if executed well. Something like DWT -> demi bahamut -> FBT -> phoenix, particularly.

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Originally Posted by ShariusTC

Hard to tell if phoenix phase is after or before bahamut, phoenix appear late in the trailer more likely because it's a new summon, when SMN appear they already has their bahamut gauge fill and they don't let pheonix gauge run out also we don't see DWT in that rotation, 2 aetherflow won't change colour when use

So it'll be either bahamut phase to trigger pheonix phase or phoenix phase will be replace DWT and we need to sumkon phoenix 2 times to trigger bahamut phase

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Phoenix cold smoked Bahamut sooo

Why does Phoenix having an AOE healing ability?

Going strictly by its history in Final Fantasy, Phoenix usually functions to resurrect you to full health. I understand that SMN having that ability in this game would be too broken, but I’d rather have another attack ability than a mediocre heal.

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Originally Posted by Len

Why does Phoenix having an AOE healing ability?

Going strictly by its history in Final Fantasy, Phoenix usually functions to resurrect you to full health. I understand that SMN having that ability in this game would be too broken, but I’d rather have another attack ability than a mediocre heal.

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The healing ability is only 20 potency per tick for 20s. Assuming standard ticks it's 140-160 potency total. It's really not that much. It heals about as much as Succor does, if you didn't factor in the shield potency. The main thing is it's actually a passive trait, which triggers immediately upon summoning Phoenix. It's free, but weak as hell.

Taking the leaks with 2 grains of salt because some of it just doesn't make sense. First the "Performance Actions" for pets is off center and doesn't line up with the box. Next I don't see a "Summon Phoenix" action but it has "Summon Bahamut" action? We see Phoenix Summon in the Action Trailer and what looks like Phoenix Trance in the Benchmark. Idk, a lot of it looks legit but some of it doesn't.

Yeah, there's Firebird Trance and Bahamut, but can't see Summon Phoenix or Dreadwyrm trance anywhere xD. I guess summon phoenix could be this very last spell called revelation? Though I doubt it.

Doubt it too, especially since the button is similar to Akh Morn in design. So I wonder where Phoenix fits into all of it... unless Summon Bahamut is somehow overwritten when the requisite conditions are met?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Doubt it too, especially since the button is similar to Akh Morn in design. So I wonder where Phoenix fits into all of it... unless Summon Bahamut is somehow overwritten when the requisite conditions are met?

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There is an icon that most likely is Summon Phoenix was present in the leaks, it just happens to be called Brand of Purgatory. The reason I assume it would likely be Summon Phoenix is because it specifically resembles Summon Bahamut the most out of all the Bahamut related icons. Similar visual comparisons show that Wyrmwave, Akh Morn, Enkindle Bahamut, Deathflare, and DWT all have potential Phoenix equivalents represented. Only Everlasting Flight doesn't cleanly map onto any Bahamut related button, but its icon does resemble the base Enkindle. It's the ability descriptions in the leaks and their ordering that makes me question their validity, not the icons in of themselves.

From how I see it, Firebird Trance is also how you Summon Phoenix.

When Phoenix was summoned in the video, the spells the SMN used were changed into fire ones, which is what Firebird Trance does with Ruin III and Outburst (new Tri-Bind), changing them into Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory respectively. They were also instant. The wording for Firebird Trance's effect was weird (Reduces spell casting time by 2.5 seconds), but I assume it basically makes spells instant. Not only that, when the SMN did those two skills, Phoenix did a Wyrmwave (called Scarlet Flame). Revelation is Phoenix's Akh Morn.

Right now the only contradiction I see is that in the video, the duration the the trance is 20 seconds, while the leaks it's 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

From how I see it, Firebird Trance is also how you Summon Phoenix.

When Phoenix was summoned in the video, the spells the SMN used were changed into fire ones, which is what Firebird Trance does with Ruin III and Outburst (new Tri-Bind), changing them into Fountain of Fire and Brand of Purgatory respectively. They were also instant. The wording for Firebird Trance's effect was weird (Reduces spell casting time by 2.5 seconds), but I assume it basically makes spells instant. Not only that, when the SMN did those two skills, Phoenix did a Wyrmwave (called Scarlet Flame). Revelation is Phoenix's Akh Morn.

Right now the only contradiction I see is that in the video, the duration the the trance is 20 seconds, while the leaks it's 15 seconds.

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Only problem is this little move: Benchmark Trailer.
For comparison

Edit: I was going to speculate based on the leaks but there just isn't enough to go on here. Two more days till we know the truth.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Only problem is this little move: Benchmark Trailer.
For comparison

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Yeah, weird. The only thing I can think of is that the leaked tooltips is from an earlier version, meaning that right now Firebird Trance and summoning Phoenix were/are separate things just like how it is with Bahamut right now, or that Firebird Trance is just a reskinned DWT but summoning Phoenix is a combination of both, but everything else should still be how it is. If it's the latest version then I assume it's how I described it.

If we compare summon Phoenix to summon Bahamut, it just doesn't make sense that the SMN suddenly uses fire-type attacks when it's the new trance that's supposed to give those effects, so I assumed it incorporated the new trance or it is the new trance.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Yeah, weird. The only thing I can think of is that the leaked tooltips is from an earlier version, meaning Firebird Trance and summoning Phoenix were/are separate things just like how it is with Bahamut right now, or that Firebird Trance is just a reskinned DWT but summoning Phoenix is a combination of both, but everything else should still be how it is.

If we compare summon Phoenix to summon Bahamut, it just doesn't make sense that the SMN suddenly uses fire-type attacks, so I assumed it incorporated the new trance or it is the new trance.

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Will if we go off what we see in the leaks I would assume DWT is related to Ruin while FBT is related to Fire. If Trance are 15s long and Summons are 20s then the flow would be DWT > FBT > Bahamut > Phoenix. Though with this rotation I don't see how we can do anything else like command Egis' unless they are OGCD and we can weave them between spell casting.

That makes a bit more sense I guess. The leaks having no summon phoenix button is still weird though, but I really wonder if summoning phoenix will also give the effect of FBT which I assume is what the job action video shows, if that's true then that's actually busted.
Commanding Egis will be ogcd like how it is right now I think, but they're changing how the Egis work and they were too vague about it so who knows how the rotation will be now.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

That makes a bit more sense I guess. The leaks having no summon phoenix button is still weird though, but I really wonder if summoning phoenix will also give the effect of FBT which I assume is what the job action video shows, if that's true then that's actually busted.
Commanding Egis will be ogcd like how it is right now I think, but they're changing how the Egis work and they were too vague about it so who knows how the rotation will be now.

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I'm kind of wondering if Everlasting Flight isn't what summons him. It looks like it can't be assigned to a hotbar like the rest of the FBT/Phoenix skills, suggesting all the Phoenix skills replace their respective Bahamut equivalents when conditions are met, and they're accounted for except for the actual summon. The leeks also say that Fountain of Fire(the FBT replacement for Ruin III) grants an effect called Burgeoning Flame for 20 seconds, but I can't find anything about that beyond it being required for Brand of Purgatory.

I think Everlasting Flight is something that applies automatically when you summon Phoenix. Maybe...
The Burgeoning Flame effect is probably just flavor text. It's like the "Ver[something] Ready" effect from RDM for example, only meaning that you can use that particular Ver[something] attack. Everything will make more sense when we see the traits.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I think Everlasting Flight is something that applies automatically when you summon Phoenix. Maybe...

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That's the only way that having an ability like that would make sense. We have 20 seconds of Phoenix, nobody's going to spend a cast on a lousy heal when you could be dealing damage. I still want to know why they even included Everlasting Flight. Who's going to care about the minimal healing it will provide, should you happen to time Phoenix's summon when the party has taken damage?

...Instead of a lousy heal, can you imagine if the entire party got a buff every time we summoned Phoenix instead? Now that would be spicy.

Yeah, honestly it should've been a party buff now that Devotion is gone (I think).

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

Yeah, honestly it should've been a party buff now that Devotion is gone (I think).

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Devotion's not gone according to the benchmark datamine. What effect it has now might be different though. Radiant Shield/Contagion were gone from the pet actions based on the SMN leaks too.