What if "battle system changes" includes dividing DPS types

I'm sure SE is aware Dancer will cause DPS cues to go on longer. This is because the DF doesn't differentiate between the three DPS types. With the announcement of new battle changes, do you think they're planning to divide DPS into their three groups?

There would be a queue for tank, melee, ranged physical, caster, and healer. This means a light party will have 5 players, full party becomes 10 and 24-man raids become 30. To balance the potential damage coming from this, they would either increase enemy health or nerf all job damage. This way, a 10-man party will do the same damage as an 8-man. I think the later would be more likely. It would also mean ranged physical will have a more vital role in a party.

This is an extreme change, one that'll piss off players love high number DPS, but we don't know how exactly the system will change in ShB. All we know is that it's a major one and TP will be gone. This would let DPS queues go much faster and will pay off in the long one, when SE adds more jobs in the future. What do you guys think?

I personally don't think so and I think it would be the same queue time if not slower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Minerva-Redwater

I personally don't think so and I think it would be the same queue time if not slower.

---

But each DPS type would have it own queue. I can imagine it taking the same amount of time as tank and healer does now

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

But each DPS type would have it own queue. I can imagine it taking the same amount of time as tank and healer does now

---

It will not really. The amount of DPS players will not change, but instead some roles will wait even longer than now because they are popular and should wait until the sacred moment when another role will pop the qeue. And this + lack of tanks and healers can make things even worse for popular dps sub-roles.

So instead of waiting for two specific roles, we'd have to wait for four other roles? This is the opposite of a solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

But each DPS type would have it own queue. I can imagine it taking the same amount of time as tank and healer does now

---

Tanks and Healers do not have fast queues because they're only in "One queue"

Tanks and Healers have fast queues because there are far less people playing them than any DPS. Far, far less.

Anyway, as far as things goes... The game already looks to try and create diversity within DPS types and when it cannot do that (Because a particular sub-role is too popular at that time) then it picks from whatever DPS is in the queue.

Such a change to hard force diversity in DPS roles would only increase DPS queue times dramatically. Since, instead of any DPS player queuing for 1 of 2-4 spots in a duty, they now are queuing for 1-2 specific spots in a party effectively doubling the competition for them to enter a party.

Ironically, because simply just adding 1 DPS slot to the light party (Thus 2 to full party) without locking sub-roles would in fact reduce DPS queues. Since then any DPS player would then be queuing for 3-6 spots in a party creating 50% less competition for spaces.

Dividing up dps queues would be a mistake. It would over complicate things, and there's the issue that dungeons have two dps but there are three dps sub types. (Melee, physical ranged, caster.)

It would only be a hassle if they tried dividing things up further. The game tries but ultimately if the game spits two bards or two monks into a dungeon as dps it's not the end of the world and complicating the queue system has the potential to just slow things down even more.

First, highly doubt party composition is what they're changing


BUT--and that's a big "but"--if it were, the end result is the same. The queues are long right now not just because there's only two slots for dps. The queues are longer because there's an enforced trinity system where one of the roles required to participate is the tank role, which is least played/desirable. To top it off, this wait time is aggravated depending on what kind of content you're queuing for and when you're queuing for it. An excellent example of that is the current 24man raids of this expac vs the old ones. I guarantee you 10/10 times, the current 3 will pop faster than the ones before them because they're relevant and what they offer is still in need by many. In addition, they queue still reasonably fast for dps because the queue system is for all types of dps. Start putting dps sub roles to the queues and guess what? We're right back to square one, with people now lamenting when is caster dps is gonna fill the role slot. Or a ranged. Or a melee. You get the point.

it's a neat idea, but don't get your hopes up about it. Until we know for sure, it's not really worth speculating if they'll do it. Even then, chances are low.

It's actually hard to even speculate that this won't happen. It's a near certainty that it will not. Adding numbers to current compositions entails having to adjust previous content as well as new, and as a healer main I can personally tell you that I do not want to have to keep an eye out on two additional players in 8-man, and 6 in 24-man. PUGs are freakin rough man, and a total hit or miss.

I do understand where you are coming from though, and DPS roles are by no means created equally. Even inside their respective sub roles there is a balance and diversity the devs are challenged to maintain. However, it's not content or composition design that makes queue times so much longer for DPS jobs. It is simply a matter of so many players choosing this role. Even tank and healer mains have fewer jobs to level and eventually start playing DPS jobs. The same cannot be said for DPS mains out there choosing to play tanks and healers. Not only because of the increased responsibility, but also the number of DPS jobs available for them to play.

I agree with the others, and believe dividing up the DPS types for queues will only increase the time you spend in it.

Technically there are already 2 dps queues, it just doesn't show it. Ranged and melee are split.

You can queue as a melee now, get 1 wait time and role waiting list number. Queue as ranged and you will have a longer wait time and a higher number, at least in my experience.

Same thing shows if you queue in a party with a friend, 1 melee 1 ranged. You will have different wait times and role waiting list numbers for roulettes.

It just doesn't require one of each, and will accept 2 melee or 2 ranged for a duty to not hold up queues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by REPROBEAN_CHILD

...do you think they're planning to divide DPS into their three groups? ...

---

No, they will not, for a reason.

In the dark days of the never ending dps queue, In the past, DF queue were taking account of a composition of Tank, Healer, Melee and Ranged DPS for the party composition (double that, for 8-men stuff). This always had given biblical queues for the dps role, with even memes on the forum and screenshot games of who got the longest queue wait time.

Then, the Gods Developers decided to trash it and just ask two any dps, and queue times got reduced of at least two magnitudes. Ain't telling today them are instant, but the wait time you have today is a joke compared to what we had to suffer in the past.

So, no, DNC will continue to fit in DF as every one other dps job.

No with this change it just means melee dps will probably have slightly faster queue times as its now 4 vs 6. The 4 melee vs 6 ranged.

The DF for each dungeon tries to pair a melee and a ranged dps together. The formula is still there however if the duty finder cannot find a melee/ranged combination it will grab the next melee or ranged dps in the queue to fill the slot.

Can somebody give me a valid reason as to why FFXIV has only 2 DPS slots per party and not 3 slots like most other MMOs? Having 3 DPS slots for Light Party and 5 DPS slots for Full Party would solve a ton of issues.

Sometimes, being different does not automatically make things better. FFXIV only having 2 DPS slots is a perfect example of this.

Segmenting the dps queue wouldn't really help with avoiding the hit from dancer's inclusion. All it'd do is save some dps, and make the lives of brd/mch much worse, since they would share a queue. Same with every time an expansion adds a new dps, whichever DPS shares a queue will end up eating the very short end of the stick.

I remember when stormblood came out and everything was flooded with red mages. Imagine how terrible DPS queues would have been for BLM/SMNs stuck in that queue, if the pain of the new FOTM DPS class wasn't shared with the whole dps pool.

Adding another party slot is also overkill for a problem that's mostly temporary on expansion release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NYCAcimStudent

Can somebody give me a valid reason as to why FFXIV has only 2 DPS slots per party and not 3 slots like most other MMOs? Having 3 DPS slots for Light Party and 5 DPS slots for Full Party would solve a ton of issues.

Sometimes, being different does not automatically make things better. FFXIV only having 2 DPS slots is a perfect example of this.

---

It's unlikely someone will be able to provide you with a reason that you, personally, will find valid. That said, one ranged and one melee is why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NYCAcimStudent

Can somebody give me a valid reason as to why FFXIV has only 2 DPS slots per party and not 3 slots like most other MMOs? Having 3 DPS slots for Light Party and 5 DPS slots for Full Party would solve a ton of issues.

Sometimes, being different does not automatically make things better. FFXIV only having 2 DPS slots is a perfect example of this.

---

Personally I've played some of those other mmos, and dps queues were not any shorter.

Most of mine are less than 10 minutes as it is now, and that's with the content drought.

They would never do that, it would over complicate things for no reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NYCAcimStudent

Can somebody give me a valid reason as to why FFXIV has only 2 DPS slots per party and not 3 slots like most other MMOs? Having 3 DPS slots for Light Party and 5 DPS slots for Full Party would solve a ton of issues.

Sometimes, being different does not automatically make things better. FFXIV only having 2 DPS slots is a perfect example of this.

---

Sometimes, the number of DPS slots aren't the major factor.

It all comes down to the ratio of Tank/Healer vs DPS.

For example, back when I played WoW (Pre-Unsub from Azeroth expac) it was normal for DPS to have 30 minute queues for dungeon at a minimum. LFR's could often reach 1 hour minimum queues.

This is 5 man content with 3 DPS slots and 25 man content with 17 DPS slots.

Of course, the worse the DPS to Support ratio is in a game, the better queues will be with larger parties consisting of more DPS slots. So if in the aforementioned WoW scenario if there was only 2 DPS spots in a dungeon, queues would be a lot worse.

That said, a portion of the blame rests on the fact that people would often run premade groups rather than PuG because the average IQ of match-maker groups was in the negative region... No-one wants to Tank for/Heal Billy No-Brain who keeps standing in all the fire and is doing 0 DPS, so they just stopped grouping with him.

As for why XIV is using a 4x/8x system? Who knows. Perhaps they liked the idea of parties being Tank/Healer/mDPS/rDPS with full parties having an 2x each with an extra wildcard DPS that could be either mDPS/rDPS. Perhaps they were just fond of even numbers. Maybe developer got bullied as a kid by someone that lived at house number 5. :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NYCAcimStudent

Can somebody give me a valid reason as to why FFXIV has only 2 DPS slots per party and not 3 slots like most other MMOs? Having 3 DPS slots for Light Party and 5 DPS slots for Full Party would solve a ton of issues.

Sometimes, being different does not automatically make things better. FFXIV only having 2 DPS slots is a perfect example of this.

---

Three, four, even five DPS slots for dungeons; you're still going to be waiting on a tank and/or a healer to enter the queue. The wait times are a result of the lack of tanks and healers at any given time. Like I always say, if you want to help DPS queue time, then play a tank or a healer.

Along with the other reasons, WoW isn't really a great example of a better queue system because the content all takes different ratios of players, which ends up being even worse because it ends up making certain roles more necessary than they were during leveling, and others have to struggle for spots. 20% of a group is tanks while leveling up, but in a 25man raid that has 2, maybe 3 tanks, that's 8-12% of the group as tanks, only allowing half of the tanks as when leveling up. Healers are 20% of a group while leveling up, but at max level there's usually an extra healer, 3 in 10 mans and 6 or maybe 7 in 25mans.

XIV at the very least manages to keep its party composition the same throughout content (except 24mans, which were never really high-end content anyway), which helps keep people from leveling classes and finding out there's not any room for them after they spend all their time leveling.

The ratio of tank/healer/dps isn't static, and adding another slot isn't just going to totally cure it. If dps queues get noticeably better, the people who switched to tank/healer for better queues will just end up going dps again and bloating the queues. If dps queues get worse, more people will jump to tank/healer. It's a balancing act, and rebalancing all content in the game just to try to alleviate a bit of dps queues seems like a terrible idea.

This would make things infinitely worse for dps queues but at the end of the day I don't really care because I'm a tank main!

Given how often I'm paired with another caster in Expert roulette, I'd hate to see the effect on those queue times if we could only go in one at a time.

the addition of trusts and other ways to level solo will likely take many dps out of the pools.

Sure, why not? Apparently DPS sub-roles are as important as the Healer role when it comes to which classes they create, so why not give these sub-roles specific raid and party slots? Queue times are irrelevant when it comes to fairness.

The Duty Finder already tries to match one melee with one ranged when queuing for 4 man content. I'm sure it probably tries to match 2 melee and 2 ranged for 8 man. However to avoid extremely long wait times it also probably has a if statement that says "If X amount of time has passed match melee with melee or ranged with ranged." With 3 - 6 slots dedicated to DPS their wait time might be a little bit faster since the game is pulling more DPS into one place that it was before, but if people are not playing tanks or healers then those 3 DPS are still going to wait till the DF can give them to the DPS.