Couldn't help but notice they are 15 minute recasts in the movement cancel. Does slightly 600 or so more damage than thundara.
Are they gonna share the same timer again?
Are they going to be free cost since it's a 15 minute wait?
Are they still being improved upon because 15 minutes wait for 500+ extra damage on a regular mob doe not make it seem very useful against a boss that can resist spells sometimes.
New Ancient Magic Spells
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03-03-2012, 01:10 PMJinrya-GekiNew Ancient Magic Spells
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03-03-2012, 02:10 PMDawiichan
Looking at burst, the MP cost is 252 mp with a 15:00 minute cooldown. It did do around 700+ more dmg on a monsters than thundara(Thundara seems to do around 63% of the dmg that burst does on a full hp mob based on the video dmg), however you got to remember that the combo of thundara adds extra dmg. Burst on the other hand gets increased damage depending on how low the health of the target is, so it's full potential wasn't shown there.
I don't think I've ever gotten resisted against ifrit or moogles with dark seal, I would recommend saving Dark seal for ancient magic. I mean all three seem to have different uses. Flare most likely will do massive aoe dmg + the DoT, Burst is a single target finisher and Freeze is a single target dmg spell that reduces enmity, so Dark seal should be up every time you use it since you most likely wont use all 3 consecutively.
However this is all speculation. -
03-03-2012, 03:42 PMMychaelI'm sorry, but the fact that you need to be dying (or use convert from ~1 mp just before) to get the full potential of spell seems like a good reason for it not to have a 15 minute recast. I'm kinda with Jin on this one. Anything with a 15 minute recast needs to rape everything. Not just be a highly situational, generally useless move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawiichan
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03-03-2012, 03:57 PMDawiichanThink you misunderstood, or maybe I did, on how the spell works. From the way I read it, the skill gets a damage increase depending on the target's hp not the user's(IMO the name makes it sound like it does this as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mychael
Also, I don't see how that would be a possible solution to the 15 minute cooldown. Why would you make an overpowered skill only because the cooldown is long? If you ask me the skill should be very situational and not broken.
Using hypothetical numbers, lets say 1% hp loss = 1% dmg increase. Then lets use ifrit after hellfire as an example. Since ifrit is by then at around 30% HP, a 70% dmg increase would take place. Scaling down the dmg based from that video down to the avg dmg a thundara does on ifrit(500-540), Burst would do roughly around 800~900 dmg* on ifrit if no other factors are in place. With a 70% increase that would then change the numbers to 1300-1400. Then there is always the possibility of using excruciate to increase the damage, possibly to reaching 1600(not too sure how crit works yet).
That right there is about 2 Thunder>Thundara combos(depending on stats/crits/resists). If you ask me, one BLM being able to dish out that much dmg with 1 spell is a good way of bursting down the remaining hp of ifrit, especially post hellfire being when most screw ups happen.
*Edit: Just noticed the monster was at around 70% HP when it was cast, so the damage was most likely stronger than it's beginning base. So the above base is probably lower. -
03-03-2012, 04:26 PMMychaelDid you play XI? I liked 2hrs. They were very nice "OSSHIIIIII" skills (in most cases). They were overpowered because they could save you (or your party) from the brink of death. I.e. fullcure+esuna, immune to damage, infinite mp, instant cast spells, etc. I think overpowered abilities with high timers are fair. It also means that, if you're going with a certain strategy, you have to wait to retry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawiichan
Now, this is a 15 minute timer, not two hours. So of course this isn't going to do 9999 damage to ifrit or anything, no one's suggesting that. MP-Damage ratio is an excellent argument for a normal attack (i.e. why we use Thunder > Blizzard, aside from combos), but this is clearly non-normal if it is indeed a 15 minute recast. This is not meant to be spammed or to dramatically change the battle; a 15 minute recast in XIV should be an "OSHIIIII!" ability--not to the extent of XI's 2hrs, but there should be a reason to use them besides saving 100 MP to do 300 extra damage.
I still believe theQuote:
Originally Posted by Dawiichan
refers to the caster's health.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gildrein
A spell that is proportional to the target's HP doesn't make much sense to me, but I've seen plenty of attacks that are proportionate to the user's HP.
It's also worthy of note (in your favor) that the PLD WS does indeed specify "your remaining HP." So it's hard to tell. -
03-03-2012, 04:55 PMDawiichan
I guess I'll start with the 2nd part first.
I have personally seen multiple occasions where skills do extra damage based on the target's hp(Garen's ult in LoL or one of thief's dagger skill in GW2 as some examples). They're usually called finishing moves if they get a damage increase depending on how low the target's hp is. The lower the HP the more the damage you deal, letting one take down the target's hp faster, if not already done instantly after the cast. Now unlike melee classes, I have never seen a spell that increases damage based on a mage's remaining HP. Just sounds completely useless since mages usually avoid damage the most, and for a spell that is supposed to be an ancient magic it sounds counterproductive. So if it is how you say, I will agree with you on the fact that the spell will be a useless move.
For the second part, I did play XI, think my character name pretty much gives that away. Two hours were very powerful, but that's the thing, they were two hours. The cooldown on them are 8 times as much as these spells. I do agree that these spells should be really good considering the 15:00 cooldown, but in a conceptional standard, I already think they are. Just thinking, "300 damage increase, why so little?" isn't the right way to look at it considering ifrit takes a considerable amount of reduced damage. That's also without the bonus based on the way I believe it will work based on my reasons above. You need to take the overall landscape of the skill and not just a certain location.
I see it being beneficial because of these certain aspects that could be an outcome of the skill:
-Parsimony will decrease the MP cost equal to using parsimony on a spell like blizzard, yet instead it will most likely reach the mp recovery cap giving you a decent MP recovery.
-Bursts down the end phase of a boss at a faster rate, which is the time where wiping has the greatest chance of occurring.
-Low MP cost lets your damage output not take a big hit compared to a spell like Thundaga letting one dps for longer amounts.
-Most likely one of the highest(if not the highest) damaging skill in the game.
That's the downside of speculating though, the chance of all of this being the same once 1.21 comes out isn't 100% since none of us have tried it out. I remember when some people thought auto-refresh on THM/CNJ was going to be better than it actually is before the patch came out.I actually really want to see the DPS parse in moogle and ifrit as a BLM to see how much of a damage increase I would get with the ancient magic spells and the better mana sustainability BLM will be getting.
Also(from my post above):
Quote:
*Edit: Just noticed the monster was at around 70% HP when it was cast, so the damage was most likely stronger than it's beginning base. So the above base is probably lower.
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03-03-2012, 06:03 PMSaiph
the dmg is based on the casters hp.
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03-03-2012, 07:13 PMZenakuOnly Spell that are 1-2 hours should rape something like 15mins is really not that long vs Two hours in FFXI where most of them where OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mychael
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03-03-2012, 07:18 PMMychaelYeah I said that in my next post. D=Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenaku
Given that everything is faster in XIV I think 15 minutes is a pretty long time. This is a once-per-primal/boss (and maybe 2-3 times for a DH) ability, so I don't know if the extra damage that I see in the video will be worth it. Then, we have very little to guess from.. because a dev hit for X on a mob that's weak to thunder, doesn't mean that the real numbers will look anything like it.
Using the numbers from the video...
Thunder hit for 761.
Thundara hit for 1233.
Burst hit for 1973. 15m CD
So in Ifrit, say Thunder hits for 250 and Thundara hits for 500 (just some semi-close numbers). We can probably expect ~800-900 extra damage from a Burst,assuming that our HP is around 50% (as the dev's HP was in yellow when they cast Burst). Will that 800 extra damage really make a difference on Ifrit? (just an example) My guess could be way off, though. Just speculation. AM might have perfect accuracy or something. You could also boost it with excruciate, but I'm not sure if it would beat Thundaga (due to the increased crit damage from ->Thundaga combo). Probably would beat it with low HP (or so I'd hope). -
03-04-2012, 02:48 AMDawiichanPre-1.20 shadowseer(thm spell) was based on the target's remaining health, was also a very strong nuke for the time, wouldn't be surprised if it's target's hp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saiph
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03-05-2012, 02:48 AMRydincould be twice depending on how long it takesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mychael
I'd recommend using it as soon as you're sure it wont pull hate -
03-05-2012, 04:47 AMDeadRiserNo sir, I'll chime in and say that you are wrong. Shadowseer is definitely based on the user's remaining health. Go fight some Amaljaa THM's and get them to less than 25% health. They start casting Shadowseer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawiichan
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03-05-2012, 06:36 AMDawiichanQuote:
Originally Posted by DeadRiser
Then from THM back then(in the comments), "Hit them when their HP is full for huge damage. The more HP they have the more they take."Quote:
Engulf the soul in dark flame, dealing damage and increasing magic potency in proportion to the difference between the target's HP and yours.Link
Casting shadowseer when they reach 25% hp is part of their AI, the skill itself is based on a comparison of the target's hp and yours. I'm just stating that there was a skill that has a damage increase based on the target's hp. -
03-05-2012, 06:39 AMNoctisUmbra
Use regular Thunder combo repeatedly.
Get to low-ish MP.
Use Thunder > Thundara.
Use Convert.
Use Burst. -
03-05-2012, 06:41 AMJinrya-GekiIf it's like convert from FFXI, you would most likely pull hate at that point and kill yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra
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03-05-2012, 06:42 AMDucNerval
Shadowsear is based on user remaining HP
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03-05-2012, 06:46 AMJinrya-Geki
Doesn't really matter though, they are 15 minute recasts.
Shadowsear was way better than the ancient magic spell because it was a much shorter cool down. I forget what it was 5 minutes or less.
If it's a last resort spell, who know how it'll be. My opinion probably useless like Thundaga. -
03-05-2012, 06:46 AMRydinActually all of you are right... and also wrong....Quote:
Originally Posted by DucNerval
Shadowsear increased in potency based on the difference between your HP and the MOBs. So since you can't increase a a MOBs hp, the way you boosted SS damage was lowering your own HP... Its why thaums use to turn AOE off and use Sacrifice on others
source: the old shadowsear tooltip that said "Engulf the soul in dark flame, dealing damage and increasing magic potency in proportion to the difference between the target's HP and yours." -
03-05-2012, 06:58 AMDucNerval
Much better description Rydin, thanks.
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03-05-2012, 07:00 AMRydinyou're welcome... although it doesn't make the Burst description any clearerQuote:
Originally Posted by DucNerval
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03-05-2012, 07:11 AMDawiichanIt doesn't, it just makes the possibility of both possible and not just the caster's remaining hp. Main reason why I stated the spell's description above since the way of thought here seems like it can only be the caster's hp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
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03-05-2012, 07:35 AMDucNerval
Let's wait a week and figure it out when it's release.
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03-05-2012, 07:36 AMEstelliosFreeze lowers your enmity so depending on how potent that enmity loss is you could possibly nuke to your heart's content, especially if it's something as drastic as a complete Enmity wipe and you use it late in a fight. Something like that would warrant a long recast, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki
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03-05-2012, 09:26 AMDawiichanI see it being something close to Chameleon since BLM won't be able to use it. However more potency would be nice for the CD since Chameleon only brings you down by a threat level on average. Especially since convert should be increasing the dps of a smart black mage in the entirety of the fight since more spells will be able to be used. However I can see it also bringing down dps of people that convert and die right after >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Estellios
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03-13-2012, 03:15 AMJinrya-Geki
I think Burst and Flare need to be drastically improved.
Burst I have used at very low hp compared to the boss, hp below 300. I managed to use Burst. The boss was around 75% and a tad less. Comboed Burst with excruiate and the damage was like 1900. While Thundara does 1500-1600 with Excruiate.
Flare... it's self aoe. That alone needs to be fixed. Either by making it a ranged attack or making it instant with a slightly larger cool down. Also should be used as a combo to make it not have a DoT effect. The closer you are to an enemy the more damage? Why!?