This is how I'd do it.
Goals:
Keep Paladins identity similar to today.
Restructure ability gain.
Repurpose current abilities that cost resources to cost a different resource (Time, Gauge).
Lets get going.
Savage Blade - Removed.
Riot Blade - Removed
Reasoning: We dont need these. They're the easiest cuts to make.
Abilities by level (Dont freak out):
1. Fast Blade - Unchanged.
2. Fight or Flight - Changed to: The next ability, weaponskill or spell you use is guaranteed to both crit and direct hit, cannot miss and will have its combo bonus doubled. Duration changed to 10 seconds. Reuse changed to 30 seconds.
4. Rage of Halone - Combo action changed to Fast Blade. Level obtained changed to 4.
6. Royal Authority - Combo action changed to Fast Blade. Added: Combo Bonus:
Restores MP. Level obtained changed to 6.
8. Goring Blade - Combo action changed to Fast Blade. Level obtained changed to 8.
10. Shield Bash - Changed from weaponskill to ability. Cast time removed. Cooldown changed to 20 seconds. Potency removed. Level obtained changed to 10.
12. Shield Swipe: Level obtained changed to 12.
14. Shield Lob - Resource cost removed. Changed from weapon skill to ability. Cast time removed. Cooldown changed to 20 seconds. Minimum range added: Cannot be used on a target in melee range. Level obtained changed to 14.
15. Flash - Resource cost removed, 12 sec cooldown added. Changed from spell to ability. Level obtained changed to 15.
20. Clemency - Resource cost removed. Cast time removed. Cooldown changed to 45 seconds. Level obtained changed to 20.
20. Sentinel - Level obtained changed to 20.
25. Total Eclipse - Cost changed to 10% of Base MP. Level obtained changed to 25.
30. Sword Oath - removed from global cooldown. Added cooldown: 12 seconds. Level obtained changed to 30
30. Shield Oath - removed from global cooldown. Added cooldown: 12 seconds.
30. Sheltron: Level obtained changed to 30.
35. Cover - Level obtained changed to 35.
35. Circle of Scorn - Level obtained changed to 35
40. Requiescat - Damage normalized across MP. Ability changed to: On use: Allows Oath Gauge to go beyond 100 for 10 seconds, adds 100 oath gauge, removes the cooldown of Holy Spirit and reduces its cost by 20. Level obtained changed to 40
40. Holy Spirit - Cast time changed to 0.0 seconds. Type changed from spell to ability. Cost changed to 40 Oath Gauge. Added Shield Oath bonus: Increased enmity. Changed: Shield Oath Potency:300 Level obtained changed to 40.
45. Spirits Within - Damage normalized across HP Levels. Level obtained changed to 45.
45. Intervention - Level obtained changed to 45.
50. Hallowed Ground - Unchanged
55. Divine Veil - Level Obtained changed to 55.
70. Passage of Arms - Level obtained changed to 70.
Traits:
Enhanced vitality traits removed.
Enhanced Cover - Removed
15. Resolved to Fight added. - Increases the enmity generated by Flash and Royal Authority on enemies targeting another member of your party.
20. Gladiatorial Resolve added. - While under the effect of Bulwark, Sentinel, Rampart or Hallowed Ground, the healing potency of Clemency on you is greatly increased.
30. Oath Mastery renamed 'Oathtaker'. Level obtained changed to 30.
35. Divine Magic Mastery - Effect changed to: All targets healed by clemency gain Convalescent for 10 seconds. Convalescent: Increases HP recovery from all sources by 20%. Level obtained changed to 35.
40. Oathkeeper added. - While under the effect of Sword Oath: Using Shield Bash or Shield Lob lowers targets damage dealt to other party members by 10% for 5 seconds.
45. Oathkeepers Intervention added - While under the effect of Intervention or Cover, the healing potency of Clemency on party members is greatly increased. Reduces damage received from a covered player by 20%.
50. Oath Mastery added - Sword Oath Bonus: Increases Intervention's damage reduction by 10%. Shield Oath Bonus: Increases enmity generation to all targets targeting another member of your party.
55. Savage Blades added - When using Holy spirit on a target afflicted by Circle of Scorn and Goring Blade, has a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Fight or Flight to 0.
60. Above Reporach added - Sword Oath Bonus: When clemency is cast on another member of your party, reduce their damage taken by 20% for 10 seconds. Shield Oath Bonus: When healed by your clemency, reduces your damage taken by 15% for 15 seconds.
70: Divine Soul added - Shield Oath bonus: Passage of Arms now affects all party members regardless of positioning. Sword Oath bonus: Divine Veil now affects all party members regardless of range.
Role Actions:
Convalescence Removed
Low Blow Removed
Reprisal Removed
Anticipation Removed
Interject Removed
Awareness Removed
Rampart: Obtained at level 15.
Provoke: Obtained at level 15.
Ultimatum: Obtained at level 50.
Shirk: Obtained at level 50.
I think this accomplishes the concept of a dedicated offtank role while allowing the paladin the ability to tank all content.
It also streamlines abilities through the early levels.
Will it lower msq dungeon clear times pre-50? Yes. Do I think that matters? No.
Obviously this is not a vaccum change and would go along with similar changes for all tanks, tp users and all classes (for role actions, tp system adjustments and levels obtained)
-
03-26-2019, 06:58 PMBarraindPaladin: Designing for One resource, streamlining and a dedicated offtank role @70
-
03-27-2019, 11:41 AMaodhan_ofinnegain
Gotta say, Personally, I disagree with a lot of these changes. Removal of Savage Blade and Riot blade, will make things too simple. PLD does not need to be made anymore simple, sure some skills need culling but reducing combos down to 2 buttons isn't gonna do it. The change to fight or flight has to be a joke, it's like DA meets Inner Release for one skill every 30 secs lol honestly fight or flight is fine as it currently is. As for cast time removals on Holy spirit and clemency, honestly can't see it happening, yea it is a pain in some fights but for the most part cast times are fine. (Slide casting is a thing :p)
The decrease in the actions learnt is a bit extreme, sure lower some of them so the lower levels aren't completely barren, but you literally moved it from the start to the latter half of the levelling process. Too many GCD have been made oGCD here, I will agree with the stance change but 10seconds is enough of a cooldown, stances are one thing that should be mostly homogenized across all the tanks.
As for the traits, Guessing there is a typo in Resolved to Fight or you'll be ripping aggro in no time spamming RA more than usual with you're reduced combo lol. Secondly, what's with your obsession with clemency, you should never use clemency unless you're in solo content or prog, you got healers, let them heal. Invention having a base 10% mitigation is enough, further augmentation via Rampart and Sentinel is fine as is, no need to buff it via trait. As for the rest of the traits, making passage of arms less of an issue to position, nah either people are behind you or they are not, stop trying to over-simplify everything.
Okay for role actions, Awareness is a must have because bosses and the like love to crit, and they can hurt in end game content, crowd control like silence and stuns, rather they stay on the cross role, they have their niche uses i.e silence in Seiryu Ex. Convalescence not as good as Awareness in the current healer meta, but has it's uses all the same and reprisal is too valuable to give up, while yes you added it as an effect via trait I rather just have reprisal as it currently is.
There is no need for a massive culling and job change to this extent, and probably only need to see maybe some skills upgraded in the current toolkit. Shield Bash which has little to no use due to Low Blow being available, and flash a skill that deals no damage are two skills that can be upgraded. Give PLD more snap aggro because it needs it, all tanks need good snap aggro, it's a joke that it doesn't have any. -
03-27-2019, 05:48 PMSylvain
So... beside the fact that PLD is currently a good off tank, isn't anyone bothered by the fact that PLD will remain an off tank in 5.0?
I mean, isn't that a bit deceitful that... "The wall", the "protector" the freaking heavy armored holy knight with a shield is best as.... the off tank?
On the other hand, the warrior whose whole identity for a long time has been "the DPS tank" is... (alongside DRK) the MT? (I mean, I've met my fair share of WAR thinking they were dps in the novice chat.... I've never encounter a single PLD thinking he was a DPS)
I for one actually thought that they would Rework PLD in order to make it MT for 5.0.
Wouldn't it make more sens? I mean, one can argue wether or not DRK / WAR / GNB should or not be mt/ot but... PLD?
Thematically speaking, should the PLD really be an off tank? -
03-27-2019, 06:25 PMjameseoakesI really hate that PLD is now only a offtank, and am really worried by the idea of them have job built around the idea of being a MT or O. I play PLD to be a heavily armouned knight not whatever it is I am play at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
-
03-27-2019, 06:26 PMLambdafishPLD off-tank isn't about dps, its about support. I hate the identity of PLD being a wall, thats more GLA than PLD. PLD is a protector as a supporter, and as with previous games, is almost like a hybid of a healer and a tank. We protect using skills like divine veil, cover, intervention, passage of arms etc. which is much more suited to than off tank role in the same way the SCH is an off heal role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
It also makes sense that the DPS tank is an MT, because there it has less loss of DPS when switching role, whereas PLD and DRK do (though DRK only technically loses damage due to how its stances work).
While I do love the PLD cooldowns, I would love for some more variety. Imagine if Bulwark was changed simply to give a debuff to the boss that reads (the next player to take damage from target gains the buff "bulwark"). This would allow it to be used in both an MT and OT setting. (Yes I know this makes PLD really powerful, but its more showing the direction I want PLD to go) -
03-27-2019, 06:46 PMSylvainI really didn't see the PLD under that light. Seeing how you portray it, I guess OT makes sens, I'm still bugged by the fact that it owns a shield and is basically not using it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Well regarding the stance, Imo it's simply poor design.
They said there would be changes with stance.
I really hope they remove, at the very least, the -20% dmg done and make all stance ogcd. The loss of benefit from the DPS stance itself is more than enough of a penalty (Felcleave +5% crit, SO aa bonus, blood weapon)
I also hope stance become much more than what they are now, an enmity generation tool you turn on for 3 gcd. -
03-27-2019, 06:53 PMLambdafishWe shall see. In a way, PLD is kinda like 3.0 WAR but less broken. It can fulfill both the MT and OT slots, it just likes OT more due to the loss of damage from shield oath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
As for identity, it is a bit weird, but I don't think we can use that as an argument as the roles shift depending on balance, and PLD can fit in either MT or OT based on the way it is portrayed. -
03-27-2019, 07:17 PMjameseoakesIt's a much worse MT than the other two tanks, it can't be compared to 3.0 as that was beyond brokenQuote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
-
03-27-2019, 07:19 PMLambdafishI say that in the fact that skills like sheltron and hallowed ground are some of the best mitigation in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes
-
03-27-2019, 07:49 PMjameseoakesI thought people where rating Holmgang better due to it's shorter cool down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
-
03-27-2019, 09:39 PMXenosan
Its hard for me to imagine new PLD skills because I'd like to see their Oath gauge growth and expenditures changed first..
A lot is the Shield Oath opener, it just sucks: WAR and DRK can handle so much more gracefully.
I am in the minority but I feel maybe pld stances should be oGCD. Would help, would be very powerful, a major feature of the job.. but at this point in game life I think that's not a DOA concept anymore..
and another issue is Intervention: it's too good and too accessible. Intervention taken off the gauge and put on a hard recast. PoA take its place as a gauge skill. Oath cost and generation adjusted as necessary. Or instead of PoA, Bulwark goes on gauge and works similiar to PoA, but without the group defense component
? -
03-28-2019, 03:19 AMKhalitharDepends on how you like at it. If you look at it purely as the only one fighting the monster and being the only thing between the boss and killing the party then yeah I can see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvain
But with it's current support abilities, the pld can act as the wall for the entire group and mitigate damage, protecting EVERYONE in the group, themselves, the back line, the front line, and the other person holding the enemy's attention. It's become a front line support melee at this point, shielding and protecting while dealing decent damage of it's own. -
03-28-2019, 04:24 AMjameseoakesIf I wanted that I'd still be healing, I liked playing as I liked facing down the big bads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khalithar
-
03-28-2019, 06:45 AMBarraindIts less about simplicity and more about acton bar management.Quote:
Removal of Savage Blade and Riot blade, will make things too simple.
We know if they add new buttons, theyre going to end up consolidating some or removing some. The best options for removal are the ones that serve as bridge actions.
One just has increased threat, which you can bake into ogcd flash, tank stance gauge spenders and faster halone. One restores MP, which can be baked into the combo finisher which only does damage. -
03-28-2019, 08:42 AMaodhan_ofinnegainSo why not they remove all second actions from all combos for every melee job, hell why not remove the starting action to each combo while you're at it, so all we have to do is spam 1 button until we need to press another former combo finisher, because two button combos, just don't feel like actual combos lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Barraind
It is so monotonous spamming two button combos at low level it feels incomplete when you play with 2 button combos, honestly the "bridge actions" are fine they don't need to be removed, there is better ways to manage hotbar space than reducing combos down, next we'll have people asking for pvp style combos for pve again xD -
03-28-2019, 04:45 PMMegguidoPLD OT or MT isn't about Shield Oath. Paladin MT or OT in Sword Oath most of the time (ShO is mostly used in dungeon or when learning a fight, when they don't really have a choice for aggro generation). They like OT more because of their utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Otherwise, PLD isn't that much worse than DRK and WAR as MT (just a bit squishier due to longer CD). What makes them a worse MT is because they "lose" a part of their support abilities while doing. Cover and Intervention are a lot less useful when being MT. Anyway, with current fight design (for savage and extreme fights at least), both tanks are MT and OT throughout the fight due to tank swaps. -
03-29-2019, 04:40 PMLambdafishHolmgang's shorter cooldown makes it good for different reasons (you can use it for two mechanics rather than one), but hallowed ground can be used to skip mechanics, which holmgang's can'tQuote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes
-
03-29-2019, 07:26 PMJandor
I'd rather not get rid of the intermediate step of the combos.
Would be nice if they could branch freely though.
Fast Blade combos to either Savage or Riot.
Have Savage then go to Rage of Halone, Royal Authority or Goring Blade.
Same deal for Riot.
Maybe lose Rage of Halone altogether? And have Savage give bonus enmity on next action, and Riot give bonus gauge generation? -
03-30-2019, 08:00 AMBarraindThats exactly what I suggest they should do, unless its something like monk, where they have multiple entry actions into multiple secondary actions into multiple tertiary actions.Quote:
So why not they remove all second actions from all combos for every melee job
I'm not against that.Quote:
hell why not remove the starting action to each combo while you're at it, so all we have to do is spam 1 button until we need to press another former combo finisher, because two button combos, just don't feel like actual combos
Theres no actual difference between 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 and 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1. You're pressing the next buttons with no thought, any time you press the opener to a combo, you have to follow it all the way through to an end, because they backload potency into the last button pressed (otherwise you wouldnt press it). You arent sometimes pressing something other than 2 when you press 1, because you then cannot press 2. The only time you press something other than 3 after you press 2 is if theres a 4 that also keys off of pressing 2. The only reason 2 exists in a lot of cases is because back in the 1.0 days, they wanted to give people a button that didnt do anything special at lower levels.
The game has moved past that time, and can streamline a lot of button presses so it feels like what you press actually matters. Its why the combo finishers should be moved waaaay up, so youre used to doing things like "keep my storms buff up but use the bigger damage/gauge gainers the rest of the time. If anything, we can move the "only press this every 18/30 seconds" combo finishers off of the combo, since thats the only place you use them.
Yes. It is. Which is why i would recommend moving down enough actions to have meaningful choice by the time you hit your first dungeon, most actions by the time you hit your mid 30's, and the overwhelming majority by the time you hit 8 man and 24 man raids. That way you have more to do than just go 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 for 40 levels. You can get much more comfortable using your other skills much earlier.Quote:
It is so monotonous spamming two button combos at low level it feels incomplete when you play with 2 button combos,
The main thing with action economy should be that every button you press should feel like it does something different. Actions shouldnt exist only to enable other buttons to be pressed.