(This is posted on behalf of a friend who can't register on the forums because it won't let her select a character. FIX THIS.)
What in the seven hells was Square thinking with this? There are plenty of other threads talking about how ridiculous their stupid excuses were (because they were) and how sexist this is (because it is; check out Sulnas for the proper explanation: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4914407 ).
But I want to talk about how tone deaf and idiotic of a PR move this is.
Square knows what people think about genderlocking. They actually got such a backlash for genderlocking that male Miqo'te were made playable! (I believe the same went for female Roes; I'm not up to date on that one, just the Miqo'te) They. KNOW. The playerbase doesn't want genderlocking. And yet they went ahead with two genderlocked races?
But what's worse than that. What's more idiotic, more mind-boggling, is that they did the Number 1 No No No Do Not Do thing in business: they hyped up bad press.
Square knew people wanted male Viera. People asked them CONSTANTLY since the Viera was announced about it. What about male Viera? Will there be male Viera? And their answer was to wait for the fanfest to find out. Which is obviously an implication that they WILL be there, because you don't hype an event this way (with smiles and winks) to tell people what they're asking for is NOT included. That is just asking. ASKING. TO get hugely backlashed on.
And lookie what's happening.
I preordered Shadowbringers because I trusted Square. They made boneheaded moves, but considering XIV was entirely reworked AND they had already removed genderlocked races in this game? I had thought they would at least have the braincells to realize adding in what they REMOVED would be a stupid, idiotic, bad press, back-lash filled move.
And yet, here we are.
Square really shot itself in the foot this time.
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03-23-2019, 03:29 PMArnysSquare really shot itself in the foot this time.
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03-23-2019, 03:29 PMArnys
Honestly? I almost wish I could take my preorder back. (The earring is too good) I can't do that, but 99% of my excitement for Shadowbringers is now gone. Just poof! Right in the ether! I had a character who is meant to be a slim, cute man, and Viera would be perfect for him. Even if the male Viera ended up more masculine and bulky than the concept art showed? That would've been fine! It would've been enough. I was so excited for the fantasia, for glamours; I had actually picked out Mog Station stuff for him to go with his new race and I was ready and eager to start grinding his weaver to make him cosmetic stuff.
Now? Now I can't even look at the character. I just feel anger every time I think of how Square did such a stupid, ridiculous, incomprehensible move.
Oh, and all that money I was gonna spend on him? Yeah, they won't be getting a cent of it now.
So bravo, Square. Not only have you lost all my money (and no doubt the money of tons of others, either from subs, or Mog Station items, or Fantasias), I'm not even hyped for Shadowbringers anymore. Viera wasn't the only thing I liked about it, not by a long shot, but seeing you be so TONE DEAF AND IGNORANT has made me deeply frightened for the structure of Shadowbringers. And now I wonder what other things you went ahead with, disregarding what we've shown to want or ask.
You've earned every little bit of outrage and bad press you're getting, and I hope you get even more. I don't care that the Ronso (or whatever fancy name you made for them) was added. I would've been in massive support of them. I care that you're genderlocking again, and genderlocking in the same sexist, male-gaze-and-male-power way that you removed before because people backlashed against it.
You're better than Blizzard. You've shown in the past you listen and learn.
Show it to us again. -
03-23-2019, 03:45 PMbriarth0rn
I feel like this is what several years of built up good will getting burned to the ground looks like. SE foreseeing this kind of reaction and not caring, or SE not seeing this reaction at all are both possibilities that don't inspire a lot of confidence in whoever's making big decisions like this. MMOs as a genre are in a horrible spot right now because of garbage like genderlocking that's become the norm in terrible F2P korean or chinese games, how could anybody think that emulating that would be a good idea? I don't accept lore as an excuse because SE can make the lore say whatever they want, and they often do, just looking at things like crossover events or the Yorha raid, and I don't accept lack of resources as an excuse, because you can't tell me two genderlocked races wasn't just as much work or more than a single, complete race.
Bad, uninspired decisions were made, and I'm going to be a lot more skeptical and critical of the game's direction going forward for it. -
03-23-2019, 04:02 PMArnys
(Again posted on friend's behalf)
You're pretty much right. I want to hold out hope and imagine it was just tone-deaf and ignorant, but with all the sexist crap already going around -- you heard about them whining that ~I don't waaaaannnaaa make skimpy male clothes, it's uncomfortaaaaaaaable~, right? -- all I can really see is just... not caring what we think. Which HURTS considering a lot of the good changes in the game came about BECAUSE they cared about us.
That was the whole reason I stuck with FFXIV. WoW was originally my home MMO, but Blizzard decided "screw the players" and so I left. ESO didn't grab me, and I hate F2P stuff for this very decision. And then... Square does this?
As much as I'm angry about the lack of male Viera and female Ronso, what makes me far more angry is the deep worry I have over the future of this MMO if they continue like this.
And you're right; lore is not an excuse. The best way I've found it explained is in this thread, in fact: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4915589
If you're doing all that? You can shove your "BUT LOOOOOOOOOORE" explanations where the sun don't shine. -
03-23-2019, 04:04 PMBarristan
Did we really need another thread about this?
And honestly, OP..what promises were broken? Players asked for Viera. They got Viera. Just not the Viera that the entitled and overhyped section of the player base wanted. -
03-23-2019, 04:06 PMXothic
It is genuinely amusing how hysterical these posts in particular are. You can be disappointed without pretending like Square Enix CEO personally came into your house, punched your cat in the jaw and shit in your fridge
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03-23-2019, 04:07 PMArnys1) Yes. We did. We need LOTS of threads about this, because it's the only way people are going to listen. If we contain it to one thread, it's just going to be ignored. If you want change? You have to FLOOD companies with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barristan
2) This is a different topic than the races themselves; it's talking about their PR.
3) When Square removed genderlocking of Miqo'te and Roes, they promised they would never do it again. That is the promise I mean, that is the promise they broke." -
03-23-2019, 04:07 PMSargentToughieAlso bear in mind that even that entitled and overhyped section of the player base couldn't agree on the interpretation of Male Viera that they wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barristan
In that 300+ page thread, I saw everything from basically the bunny version of the Hrothgar we got, to actual, LITERAL CHILDREN. Male Viera was a mystery box that people filled in with whatever idea for a race they wanted. Even if it had been revealed as a real thing, I guarantee you there would still be some level of backlash. -
03-23-2019, 04:08 PMValkyrie_LennethWhats a better front, 300 tiny threads that disappear overnight, or 1 giant one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnys
Also, its easy to select a char, you have to click the star in the upper corner of the character portrait. -
03-23-2019, 04:08 PMMasekase_HurricaneYep plenty of other threads *eyerolls* but lets make another one instead of consolidating feedback lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Arnys
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03-23-2019, 04:10 PMTheGrimacefriend if you're sick of these threads popping up, you might want to stay away from the forums for a few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barristan
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03-23-2019, 04:15 PMBrokenButterfly1) Both. Companies like this just mute the single thread and never look at it. I've seen it before. Sorry if you don't like it, but this is the way you get people to pay attention -- with both huge threads and smaller threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
2) Once again, I'm talking about their PR moves and my concern FOR THE GAME AS A WHOLE with the evidence they've shown us here, not the races itself. The current threads up don't match that topic. -
03-23-2019, 04:20 PMNihilityUsually I shy away from complaining threads but these ones about male viera are so hyperbolic and ridiculous it's actually pretty amusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGrimace
Male viera were apparently literally everything anyone could imagine all at the same time and even if they weren't anything close to what was imagined it's still ok because they were male viera and that alone made them perfect in every way.
Should have just called hrothgar viera with some lore that males don't have rabbit ears and problem solved -
03-23-2019, 04:21 PMBrokenButterfly
Also, let's talk about lost money because of boneheaded PR moves some more!
A friend of mine and Arnys' had heard us gush about the game and about how good Square was, and so they were debating getting it, patronizing Square's other games, and telling their own friends about both. However, with Square's clear disregard for both their player base, repeating of bad mistakes they originally fixed, AND their contentness with breaking their promises, that friend now deeply mistrusts their company and not only will not patron them, but will warn their friends, too. That's less players, less Mog Station buys, and less buying of their single-player games because Square has broken their promises and is showing either a malicious unwillingness to listen and mislead players for sales (because that is exactly what saying "check the fanfest~" when asked about male Vieras did, rather than shooting people down immediately like they did with other things) or a gigantically bone-headed ignorance. Either option is not encouraging. -
03-23-2019, 04:35 PMMorbolvampireQueen6
while i agree with the locking gender is bad they once again screwed healer fans/players is worse in my boook
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03-23-2019, 04:50 PMGeminaI strongly suggest looking into the definition of sexism. Gender locking isn't sexism, nor is supporting traditionalism which gender locking does. Our current social media would have you believe otherwise, but it couldn't be more wrong. Trust me, SE didn't shoot themselves in the foot. Not even close, so I hope you don't get too disappointed when you see all the Viera and Hrothgar running around come 5.0. There's going to be tons without question because the loud voices amongst the forums represents a very small portion of the entire playerbase. Those who are happy about their decision making are also the least likely to come here and start up threads, or reply to the threads displaying their discontentment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnys
Indeed they do know, and they continue to let us know that they don't allow it to dictate their own vision of their game. And it is their game.Quote:
Square knows what people think about genderlocking. They actually got such a backlash for genderlocking that male Miqo'te were made playable! (I believe the same went for female Roes; I'm not up to date on that one, just the Miqo'te) They. KNOW. The playerbase doesn't want genderlocking. And yet they went ahead with two genderlocked races?
No, that is player/fan speculation and nothing more. What I will agree with is that they are VERY aware of the backlash they would get once it was revealed that there would be no male Viera, which is why they withheld that information as long as they have.Quote:
But what's worse than that. What's more idiotic, more mind-boggling, is that they did the Number 1 No No No Do Not Do thing in business: they hyped up bad press.
Square knew people wanted male Viera. People asked them CONSTANTLY since the Viera was announced about it. What about male Viera? Will there be male Viera? And their answer was to wait for the fanfest to find out. Which is obviously an implication that they WILL be there because you don't hype an event this way (with smiles and winks) to tell people what they're asking for is NOT included. That is just asking. ASKING. TO get hugely backlashed on.
You gambled. Simple as that. There is no disputing that when you place your chips down prior to knowing all the information there will be the possibility that you lose. But a lot of information WAS there. Just not information that supported the implementation of male Viera. In fact, just the opposite. So not only did you gamble, you did so with unfavorable odds. The "removal" of genderlocked races with the addition of female Roes and male kitties doesn't really bring things in your favor when these two races were in fact genderlocked at one point. That should let you know that if SE has shown that they have done it once, that they are VERY capable of doing it again.Quote:
I preordered Shadowbringers because I trusted Square. They made boneheaded moves, but considering XIV was entirely reworked AND they had already removed genderlocked races in this game? I had thought they would at least have the braincells to realize adding in what they REMOVED would be a stupid, idiotic, bad press, back-lash filled move.
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03-23-2019, 05:17 PMBrokenButterfly1) Gender locking isn't sexism (though it is less choice and just worse overall for the game). Genderlocked races where the males are super buff huge male power fantasy and the females are super sexy exotic lean male sex fantasy is. It's the same way that WoW is fairly sexist even though there is no genderlocking, 'cause it follows that pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
2) You're right. I gambled, and I lost. The gambling in this case was my fault, and I pay for it. I accept that.
But you know what? I don't think I'm the one who lost out the most here. Yes, I threw my chips in too early, and now I have to live with having lost them. But not only will I not spend any extra money on the excess fluff I would've decked my male Viera out in... I will never gamble with Square again. I will never trust them with my chips again. And quite frankly, that lost trust is a net loss for them, especially when it ripples outwards like it is now.
I paid for my gamble this once, as did all of us who actually had faith in Square and didn't think they'd be lying to our faces by misleading us (because whatever you believe, that's what they did; asked on other things they'd just say "no", asked about Viera they said "check the fanfeest", using their own reputation to sell preorders 'cause this only got announced afterwards). But Square is the one who's going to be paying for it for far longer.
As for the rest of this thread... I'm done. I'm tired of toxic idiots missing the point, but you know, considering how many toxic people I constantly run into in-game, I really should've expected it. I'm not gonna unsub; I still love the game itself and it's fun. I won't quit over this. But I'm already seeing the ripples from my friends and their own groups of people from the absolute betrayal of the trust and good will they built up. Changing their minds about buying FFXIV. New orders of ARR/HW/SB, cut. People who'd drop money on the Mog Station, cut. And it's rippling further and further out.
1/2 -
03-23-2019, 05:18 PMBrokenButterfly
Square won't get ruined by this, not by a long shot. But the fact that they've broken their promise to us (that is why I gambled, btw; they promised they wouldn't do it again) and brought back the unpopular, restrictive-genderlocking? That's going to stick on XIV. And even if they fix it, like they did with the Roes and Miqo'te, that's no longer going to remove the mark it put on the game. After all, they promised they'd never do it again and then did it. What other promises are they going to break? What other good changes they made are they going to backpedal on?
That is what makes me truly upset about this. I could get over male Viera not being there. If Square had said outright that male Viera wouldn't be in it? I would've been disappointed with them and withdrawn some of my cash, but I still would have bought stuff off the Mog Station, because you know what? I think it's a stupid and restrictive decision, but they would be being honest about it, and I can respect that. But the use of their goodwill to sell preorders by refusing to tell people up front Viera weren't here? Their claims of LOOOOORE even though the game AS IT IS already breaks lore and Shadowbringers will do the same? (Hi, remember the Nier raid?)
It's the blatant lying and the betrayal of our trust that makes me truly angry. And I really wish the people who go "kek qq more entitled babies" would understand that.
2/2 -
03-23-2019, 05:19 PMKaedan
No, they really didn't, OP. If they thought people quitting because of this would significantly affect their bottom line, then they would have made male Viera. The fact they didn't means it won't be a big deal at all.
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03-23-2019, 05:20 PMValkyrie_Lenneth
There was no lie or betrayal. You are delusional. This will all blow over soon, and there will be like 3 people keeping 2 thread alive, and that's it. No large scale outrage. Even here, on SE's forum, there's only what, 20 people, 30 tops?
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03-23-2019, 05:30 PMcipherthevideoCongrats on dismissing legitimate criticism as delusion. Very healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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03-23-2019, 05:34 PMValkyrie_LennethThere is legitimate criticism. There is also thinking you are lied to or betrayed. One is delusional, one is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by cipherthevideo
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03-23-2019, 05:35 PMSenlitenHard to really call most the criticism legitimate, when most around here are simply crying and pulling the whole "Sexist Fantasy" card, with no real proof to back up that claim outside of misconstrued statements. But please, go ahead, find this legitimate unbaised proof and I am sure most people will be more than glad to listen in and make some actual, ya know, dialogue.Quote:
Originally Posted by cipherthevideo
But yeah, If yer going to do criticism, at least bring a unbaised view, and a logical mindset, that wont cloud your judgment. Which I am sure that will occur in a few days, and a good portion will see how silly they are for making the salt mines overflow. -
03-23-2019, 05:42 PMmanickittyYeah the real kicker is that this is the EXACT SAME mistake they made before, and FIXED! Did they just lose their memories of miqo and roe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnys
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03-23-2019, 07:09 PMRacenyeah except that response you linked is a hilarious overreaction and some of the worst virtue signaling I've ever seen, this coming from someone who is about as far left as you can be. It's a videogame. You want to play a buff female character, Roe female is there for you, you want to play a slim, attractive, silky male.. Miqo'te male is there for you. Square nowhere promised you a race would have both genders and not having a male bunny is not sexism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnys
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03-23-2019, 07:22 PMStanelis
Even worst than gender locking, Hrothghar and vieras are outright sexist stereotypes (ronsos as bulky, muscular men and vieras looking like a male fantasy). I would have expected better from SE...