Suggestion: new classes to start at lower level

I understand that from the Fan Fest in Paris Shadowbringers reveal, that gunbreaker would be tentatively released at level 60 (source: twitch stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/373857551 time: 00:28:04).

I was wondering if the developers and production team behind SE and FFXIV would strongly consider lowering this to perhaps level 30. As a player from ARR 2.0, I think a big part of the game was slowly unlocking the classes' potential as it went along. Having a class start immediately at 60 seems like a giant skill bloat.

Yes, one may argue for the items available on mogstation that pushes a class to 60. However, that is up to an individual whether he or she chooses to do so. (even then we have complaints on various online platforms about the performance of players using these "jump potions"). By introducing it AT level 60 for a class for everyone, it seems to greatly augment this problem.

Introducing classes at 30 makes sense because at 30, the "job" is unlocked. However, with samurai and red mage coming out at 50 seems odd. Now with the new classes announced to be released at 60, I felt the need to share my opinion, that's all.

I just feel that by lowering the level, it allows players to have more time to understand the class better and improve gameplay and even longevity for the game (more time spent in game :D).

Thank you for reading!

The most likely reason for this descision is to allow people to actually play through the new story with the new jobs - yes, you'll still have to go through 10 more levels to be able to do that, but thats still a lot less than starting from 30 and having to gain 40 levels.

Both samurai and redmage also hightlighted one important thing for me: Yes, getting all of those skills at level 50 felt a bit overwhelming in the first few minutes but after that I realised that the game had given me complete, basic rotations already!
Lets face it: Most jobs are extremly unfinished at level 30 and you have no real clue where that class is heading, which skills are actually going to be important etc. How often did you set up a hotbar only to realise 10 levels later that your initial design was grabage because now you got this new skill that has to fit in somewhere? I know that this happend to me far to often (so often that by now I'm looking at all the skills my job will get at max level and plan my hotbars before I start the leveling process alltogether)
Having a class start at a higher level gives you a better feeling and understanding of its core-mechanics right away. It also makes the job seem more intresting and "attractive" if you get more than 3 buttons to hit right away. And on top of that you can play through the new mainstory with one of the new jobs more or less "right away".

I understand that some people enjoy leveling a great deal - and you still get to level your job through 20 levels after all!
But I would argue that low level leveling - in most cases - doesnt really help you understand whats important about your jobs performance at max level. More often the leveling process will be actually "harmful" to that - certain jobs like DRK for example get key-skills that change how they play at level 70 at the moment. By leveling the class you might have learned how to play DRK below 70 - once you reach that, you need to learn how to play DRK at 70... so... you have to learn DRK again.
I dare to say that 30-50 doesnt even help you to really learn your class - it might help you to understand the basic rules of the gameplay (tanks have to tank, healers need to balance healing and dps, dps has to hit stuff) but not the details of your job.

Honestly, samurai and redmage felt so well designed and ready for content because they started at 50 - at least to me. I already had full rotations, I didnt had to gain 5 more levels to get my "3"! Made both jobs a whole lot more appealing to me - and it gave me a better sense to decided wether or not I actually wanted to try and level them.

Grabbing a new level 60 class just takes someone reading the tooltips, maybe hit a dummy for a little bit until they get used to it. Gunbreaker is more than likely going to follow the same formula as the other tanks; so the assumption can be made that those who can actually play tank correctly are going to be fine with it.

Besides; regarding levelling it from 30; folks will just go into PotD and then HoH to level it up - not the best places to learn your class.

As it starts in an ARR area I think 50 would make more sense than 60.

Seeing as the expansion includes previous expansions too, the SAM/RDM treatment of getting access to expansion jobs as soon as you wrap up the base game feels fair.
Almost wish they would retcon DRK, AST and MCH to function this way.

Unfortunately there's people who leveled jobs all the way from 1 to 70 and still have no clue, so your suggestion would likely only hinder those that just want to unlock the new job and go through the new main story with it in a reasonable amount of time.

When you force the mediocore players to play a new job from level 30, instead of level 50 or 60, you only extend the time it takes for them to reach the level cap. They do not become better players by slogging through another twenty levels. This has been proven and demonstrated time and time again. The players who cause the problem of being mediocore do so intentionally—they do not want to improve, so they do not. However many levels you force them to go through does not change this in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

This has been proven and demonstrated time and time again.

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No It hasn't

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Originally Posted by MsQi

No It hasn't

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What? How has it not been proven? A level 70 who levelled a class the good old fashioned doesn't instantly make them a 'pro' or 'good' or even 'mediocre'. A decent player is someone who actually knows their rotation and at least the basics of the class. I've seen plenty of max level players who still don't know jack about their class/role.

If the classes were level 30 then it's most likely that these players will just go into deep dungeons to level up where they can get away without a) knowing their rotation b) doing their class role. Those who jump sometimes are also in this category; though most who are smart at least read the tooltips/practise the rotation or read a guide.

The faster you get to max level the faster you can master the class anyway; you don't get your full kit till then.

I don't even know how you can even object to that statement.

tldr: people will use the classes wrong regardless of what level they picked it up as.

This always ends up being a balancing act.

On the one hand, people want to be able to easily access the new content on the new class as soon as possible. So a high level start is wanted.

On the other hand, you still want to have people unlock their skills over a period of time so people are less likely to feel overwhelmed. So a low level start is wanted.

Personally, 50 seems like a decent start, because you have a reasonable semblance of a rotation with plenty of time to get a feel while you level up. Though, 50-60 leveling is pretty trash >.>

So 60 is an alternative that alleviates the horrible HW leveling period.

Also to note, the lower level a class starts, the better they have to 1) Fit them into the lore for the period (I.e. 1-50 is ARR timeline, 50-60 is HW timeline, 60-70 is SB timeline) and 2) Create more Job Quests for them due to more levels to level from.

To say nothing of the fact that, if someone does want to slowly access their skills, they can always go solo PotD. It's easy enough to solo level 1-60 in there which gives you your skills as if you started at level 1 but without that awkward massive timegate that is doing actual levels (Which, ironically, for most people would end up being PotD spam :rolleyes:)

I suppose, if this trend of increasing levels and overwhelming button bloat continues they could always do what WoW did with Death Knights, which is, create an initial series of quests that unlocks your skills systematically rather than giving you them all the second you start on the job.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

What? How has it not been proven? A level 70 who levelled a class the good old fashioned doesn't instantly make them a 'pro' or 'good' or even 'mediocre'. A decent player is someone who actually knows their rotation and at least the basics of the class. I've seen plenty of max level players who still don't know jack about their class/role.

If the classes were level 30 then it's most likely that these players will just go into deep dungeons to level up where they can get away without a) knowing their rotation b) doing their class role. Those who jump sometimes are also in this category; though most who are smart at least read the tooltips/practise the rotation or read a guide.

The faster you get to max level the faster you can master the class anyway; you don't get your full kit till then.

I don't even know how you can even object to that statement.

tldr: people will use the classes wrong regardless of what level they picked it up as.

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He is saying that no mediocre players learn from playing through levels. I say some do

Anecdotal evidence

Most jobs don't even come into anything resembling a full kit starting at thirty let alone higher like SMN for example which changes every threshold or MCH at post-60.

And regardless of what level it starts at, it won't incentivize people to read tooltips or get passable let alone good. It could start at 1 and you'll still get Viera Squall cosplayers who couldn't tank their way out of Sastasha unsynced.

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Originally Posted by AlexiosCalisthenes

I understand that from the Fan Fest in Paris Shadowbringers reveal, that gunbreaker would be tentatively released at level 60 (source: twitch stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/373857551 time: 00:28:04).

I was wondering if the developers and production team behind SE and FFXIV would strongly consider lowering this to perhaps level 30. As a player from ARR 2.0, I think a big part of the game was slowly unlocking the classes' potential as it went along. Having a class start immediately at 60 seems like a giant skill bloat.

Yes, one may argue for the items available on mogstation that pushes a class to 60. However, that is up to an individual whether he or she chooses to do so. (even then we have complaints on various online platforms about the performance of players using these "jump potions"). By introducing it AT level 60 for a class for everyone, it seems to greatly augment this problem.

Introducing classes at 30 makes sense because at 30, the "job" is unlocked. However, with samurai and red mage coming out at 50 seems odd. Now with the new classes announced to be released at 60, I felt the need to share my opinion, that's all.

I just feel that by lowering the level, it allows players to have more time to understand the class better and improve gameplay and even longevity for the game (more time spent in game :D).

Thank you for reading!

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Unpopular opinion incoming: I would just like a new class to start at level 1 for a change. I get why SE wants to start classes at a higher level for hype and immediate access, but it's one of the many reason why RDM and SAM remain untouched classes for me as I can't stand just having everything from the start. I like the natural progression of learning your class and figuring out rotations and experimenting on your own as you get new skills. But like I said, unpopular opinion.

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Originally Posted by Violet_Galaxy

Unpopular opinion incoming: I would just like a new class to start at level 1 for a change. I get why SE wants to start classes at a higher level for hype and immediate access, but it's one of the many reason why RDM and SAM remain untouched classes for me as I can't stand just having everything from the start. I like the natural progression of learning your class and figuring out rotations and experimenting on your own as you get new skills. But like I said, unpopular opinion.

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I mean... you can still do those things... Take fancy new class... go to PoTD. Start at lvl1. (No, its not a fun idea, but you can do the new lvl 60 job and work it from lvl 1 to 60 there, bonus points... solo it.)

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Originally Posted by Violet_Galaxy

Unpopular opinion incoming: I would just like a new class to start at level 1 for a change. I get why SE wants to start classes at a higher level for hype and immediate access, but it's one of the many reason why RDM and SAM remain untouched classes for me as I can't stand just having everything from the start. I like the natural progression of learning your class and figuring out rotations and experimenting on your own as you get new skills. But like I said, unpopular opinion.

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You still can.

Two words: Freestyle SAM.

I feel the same way as OP, I like to start classes out slowly, and it feels good to level them up.

What I do in order to get a feel for the basics of my class is to go to low-level ARR areas and do FATEs until I'm comfortable with the job.

If you start at 1/15/20 without MSQ, what are you going to do to level? Let's take PotD out of the equation, since that's a point of contention as you really don't "learn" your classes in there.

You're going to do FATEs. You're going to go into whatever dungeon is of your level 100 times.

Guess what?

FATEs sync you. Dungeons sync you. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from grinding a bunch of level 25 fates for three hours or running Haukke 24 times synced. You can still play exactly how you would to begin with, you can even remove all those annoying skills you won't have access to at that level anyway.

And best of all, those of us who don't fancy yet another mindless grind with the same 3, 6, 7 buttons for a week don't have to do it, which doesn't affect those who want to in the slightest.

I don't know but I thanks depending on the person and perhaps very among others is that anyone regardless of level to learn how to effectively play according to their abilities the job that they're playing on as long as they do what they need to do 2 play it effectively.

The whole idea of 'new' tanks or healers being clueless is a non-issue. They're already there. And the concept that having to level from 1-70, with an even more incomplete kit, makes you better is patently false.

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Originally Posted by Videra

The whole idea of 'new' tanks or healers being clueless is a non-issue. They're already there. And the concept that having to level from 1-70, with an even more incomplete kit, makes you better is patently false.

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It's not patently false. People learn in different ways.

There's a difference. BAck in ARR, leveling up was also getting a grasp of the overall gameplay, how tanking / healing / DPSing works in this new game etc.

Now two expansions in, we know how that works. We know tanks have DPS combo, agro combo, invuln, CDs, stances. Healers have Single target heal, AOE heal, DPS spells. Shield or Regen. We know that, all jobs are just "aspected" versions of roles. We know the core concept of roles by now.
So I'd rather focus on learning a proper complete rotation starting higher level that clawing my way through Sastasha with an incomplete combo or running around in PoTD pushing random buttons.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

There's a difference. BAck in ARR, leveling up was also getting a grasp of the overall gameplay, how tanking / healing / DPSing works in this new game etc.

Now two expansions in, we know how that works. We know tanks have DPS combo, agro combo, invuln, CDs, stances. Healers have Single target heal, AOE heal, DPS spells. Shield or Regen. We know that, all jobs are just "aspected" versions of roles. We know the core concept of roles by now.
So I'd rather focus on learning a proper complete rotation starting higher level that clawing my way through Sastasha with an incomplete combo or running around in PoTD pushing random buttons.

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Precisely, this is what people don't get when they ask for jobs to start at lower levels.

Nothing is going to stop you from playing the job synced at a lower level to learn the basics before going on. That's exactly what I did with dark knight when it released, and how I did red mage. The benefit of being at level 60 is that once you get to that "yeah, I get it" moment, you can skip ahead to the next skill and see if/how that changes anything without having to grind out XP to get there.

It lets people progress through the learning curve at their own pace. People who are confident can jump right in, and people who want to take the skills slower can still do that. There's not much down side to starting the job at a higher level, and actually the up side of letting people progress through the story without having to backtrack to level up a new job.

I know I sure love having to grind lower level dungeons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over before I can use new classes in current content.

Why, it's probably the best part of the game to not be able to play the relevant parts of the game while I figure out what random skills I get at lower levels that will either be completely different or used in different ways by the time I get to the things I care about doing.

As much as I would prefer everything started from lvl 1 just because I'm traditional and I love to level jobs in their entirety and really try to learn them (plus would love to be able to play the game start to finish as newer jobs...) I think a good middle ground would be to keep all new jobs starting at level 50 and make them separate from MSQ progression (unlike how the HW jobs were introduced).
This way, anyone just having finished the base game (ARR) can hop onto the newer jobs and progress from there. Plus you have most of your basic kit by 50 for most jobs and can learn the rest as you go. Stormblood's jobs worked in this manor and I though it was a good way to do it, HW jobs being tied to Ishgard access however wasnt a good idea though imo.

If you want the full levelling experience, what prevents you from going through all the dungeons in order? And doing FATEs in old areas while in queue? (Not that there's going to be much of one given that we're getting a tank and possibly a healer)

Sure, your XP bar wouldn't be moving, but that's irrelevant to your learning process as a player, right? Dinging a level does not indicate that you've learned something new, it just means your character did. Whether you're ready or not to use it is entirely up to you. One would assume that if you are learning a job one skill at a time, you would be able to determine by yourself when you're ready to move on to the next one and make the jump from Haukke to Brayflox.

A new job releasing at level 60 does not deprive you of the experience of gradual learning. And at the same time, it also serves the needs of players (like me) who learn differently, by mastering a functional rotation first and then optimising it.

In that way, I think starting off at a higher level is better for everyone. Players who learn bottom-up can still do that by taking advantage of level sync, and players who learn top-down have a solid base to start off from (assuming the new jobs are as well designed in that department as RDM and SAM). On the other hand, starting at lvl 1 or even 30 would only serve one kind of learner and completely exclude the other.

As others have said, I don't think lowering the starting levels will improve the playerbase that much. I do think that argument has merit, but I'm not willing to trade the QoL that is skipping the leveling process for 60 levels. FFXIV has 15 jobs right now (let's not talk blue mage), and soon to be at least 17. It may be just me but I'm not interested in slogging through the leveling process that many times just so I have something to do. I'd rather repeat high level content than old content. Jobs are always better at max level than before it anyway.

Since the game came out most people know the fundamentals of healing, tanking, dpsing anyway, so we won't take as long to learn new jobs since those fundamentals can't change due to game design. Setting to jobs to level 60 is a good decision in terms of QoL and the general player base is skilled enough to deal with it too (generally speaking of course).

id actually much prefer all new jobs start at 50 because that way they not only unlock at prae right in time for you to get into full swing, but also i love the job storylines and any chance to get more story is a plus in my eyes, and as epic as drk 30-50 is being locked behind hw nowadays means youre pushing 60 before you even get close to being able to unlock it and having to basically powerlvl hw 20 full levels before continuing on is a pain (drk 30-50 is soooooooo worth it though, mch and ast not so much)

i will admit though that this does put more pressure on the dev team that will only get bigger with each new set of jobs they add with needing to add levelling weapons to the 50-60 tier and new story on top of the 15 current jobs (im really hoping shb jobs starting at 60 doesnt end up meaning no more 50 glams like ramuh or shiva weps though cause i love the ramuh stuff and a friend uses shiva glam)

tldr im torn, i realise at some point the devs have to draw a line to preserve their sanity with each expansion adding more work to the job side of things, but on the other hand i love the lore and glamgame starting at 50 right as you get out of 2.0 and if you didnt cheat and potion your way out you should have a basic enough understanding to know how to learn a new job

About three days ago, I would have agreed with you OP and I always used to feel that the earlier you start the more you learn. After unlocking SAM I no longer feel that way. I was quite happy that the job started at 50 with a nice set of skills to dive into. I still believe that someone just starting out should begin from level 1 to learn the very basics and fundamentals to PvE in any given role, but for veterans of the game, especially if the job is the same role as one they have become proficient at, they don't need this at all. They can read the tooltips and beat up a dummy and/or some FATEs for a few minutes, adjust their hot/crossbars accordingly and they are good to go to queue up for some content. Sure, there is still a bit of a learning curve, but you don't even hit this curve until you are actually level 50 which is when you start using all these skills in unison.

Another thing to factor is the amount of EXP required to get from starting level to max level. The amount of EXP to get from 50 to 70 is much higher than what it takes to get from level 1 to 50, so you're not really denying yourself a learning process that doesn't even really take place until you get to that job's starting level. With that in mind, it only makes sense for this starting level to rise with each expansion. A career tank is going to pick up Gunbreaker fast. Like really fast. Sending them back to level 1, 30, or even 50 is just going to make them drag their feet when they want to fly. The ten level they have to go through to get to the level cap of the previous expansion is more than enough time for them to become adept with their new job.