So i tanked for the very first time today and i've made up my mind.

I am going to throw myself into the sea.

Is "sea" a metaphor for something?

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Originally Posted by Steelbreeze

Is "sea" a metaphor for something?

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No, my first experience was just that terrible. :/

We'll need more information than that if you want us to help you.

It'll get better. Tanking gets easier the more experienced you get.
As a fresh tank my friends made it sport to pull off me at every turn. Hell I did the same to my girlfriend when she tanked the first time.
But it made me a better tank; they still try at times, but fail miserably. Paying attention to what other party members are doing instead of just tunnel-visioning mob aggro and boss mechanics.
Thinking multiple steps ahead and working preemptively to dissolve possible disastrous situations, adapting when necessary and pulling the group through hell if you need to.

I checked your lodestone and saw you don't have 70 classes yet.
You are essentially competing against DPS and healers who have had 100s if not 1000s of hours of more experience on their classes, not to mention most likely outgear you as well.
Yea you'll have a couple of horrible runs, but my words to you are this: It will get better.

Run with friends, find a tank mentor, ask for tips and advice from seasoned tanks how to handle situations.
It's not as bad as you think.

So long as you do it before the DPS and the healer keeps you healed, you will be fine

Dunno what happened, but bad runs happen from time to time. Try not to let it get to you.

It does get better but sometimes it's hit and miss you will notice alot of the miss will come specifically because tank get's roughly 3x more queue groups than healer and 10x more queue groups than DPS because the demand is that large for tanks. That said if you can stick with it you will eventually find it to be a richly rewarding experience. Roulette bonus is almost always for a tanks so you'll rake in much needed gil , company certificates, clusters, etc.

Speaking from Personal experience. I've found that most of the patience factor goes out the window and pulse racing comes when queue pops and you see ranged people in the group you're tanking for because almost invariably they're the ones that wont target what you're building aggro on or will facepull more friend's to come and join the soire.

But good luck if you want to give up go for it I can understand the sentiment. But if you want to try again. Never give up,Never Surrender.

I also just started tanking last week (I confess I use the tome to get my tanking class) and because I didn't level the guy from zero, it's a steep learning curve. Fortunately for me I have been playing for >1000 hours as both healers and dps so I knew most of the fights in dungeons. Still, the tank perspective in the fight can be vastly different from healer / dps class, so before jump to dungeons it's a good thing to read everything about all your skills (tooltips), online guide and do at least a few guildhest ti familiar with them. It's getting better for me after at least ten runs, and I feel more comfortable and confident to lead the team to the end of the run even get a few commendations.

SE forced my hand with Gunbreaker since I've been waiting for a Gunblade class since ARR...but after taking DRK into a few trials, 24 man raids and dungeons I can honestly say I will get used to it when the time comes. Tanking isn't all that hard tbh. It's the people you get grouped with that can make it that way. I've been a dps since 2.0 launch but I have also learned a thing or 2 from observation. In order to dps properly you sometimes have to know what the tank's supposed to do so you can adjust your positionals accordingly. Just keep trying and you will be fine. Practice makes perfect and all that.

As a person who "retired" from Tanking, with PLD, I can say there are just gona be "those days" especially when youre a Tanking greenhorn (ie: new to being a Tank Class) no one became the best without starting at some bottom level even with tallent & a tutior. That said I persionally would not think any less of you for giving up after 1 try because I did, granted by "give up" in my case it was more didn't qurry as a PLD for a few months until I got the nerve for try #2.

P.S.- by "retired" I mean: Gave up gearing PLD around 4.3 as I liked MCH more & finally came to termss that my healer friend I had on PSN wasn't coming back so I lost faith in Pug-Heals due to having a pocket-Heal for so long (& that gearing 3-4 classes with a system that has been mostly repeated since 2.0 the burnout finally hit me... also got like 6 other game to beat too lol, fyi not a high-level raider, just a B-rank casual: better then average but not "great")

I just started playing FFXIV this weekend and jumped right into tanking on Warrior *just hit 30* And has been fun up to doing a Thousand Maws which I died for the first time on final boss, part of it was because the pre-video watched going into it said you had to kill all the pods *but that is a different story lol. But coming from WoW I think I am getting confused with all the talk of Stance dancing and most Warrior guides I find are for level 70 but after switching to the Warrior upgrade I guess I got confused on what CDs to use and rotation in general.

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Originally Posted by Varyntheos

I just started playing FFXIV this weekend and jumped right into tanking on Warrior *just hit 30* And has been fun up to doing a Thousand Maws which I died for the first time on final boss, part of it was because the pre-video watched going into it said you had to kill all the pods *but that is a different story lol. But coming from WoW I think I am getting confused with all the talk of Stance dancing and most Warrior guides I find are for level 70 but after switching to the Warrior upgrade I guess I got confused on what CDs to use and rotation in general.

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IMHO, stance dancing is not compulsory. But if you want to be a good tank, as a warrior you may opt to dps harder to kill faster, so i guess this is where you need to switch between Defiance and Deliverance.

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Dungeons - Trash] For trash DPS AOE has gotten really strong to the point it can be tough to maintain threat if you mess around too much in Deliverance, especially against Red Mages. I try to keep ~50 Beast Gauge available at the end of each pull so I can open pulls with Steel Cyclone rather than Overpower, which is typically enough to establish threat indefinitely (and is easier to target when running through enemies). I find healers are able to contribute more reliable AOE DPS against trash when I'm in tank stance and using Equilibrium + Cooldowns -- I can go Deliverance to use Decimate every few GCDs, but the extra incoming damage means the healer needs to be 100% focused on keeping me up and can't contribute as much to DPS. So I don't think Stance Dancing is something you really need to worry about on trash pulls unless if your healer is dpsing their heart out and still looks bored.

[Dungeons - Bosses] I try to enter boss fights with 100 Beast Gauge if possible. Start in Defiance, run in, Tomahawk, and weave in Onslaught for a huge and instant burst of enmity. That'll put you at 80 Beast Gauge -- do one Storm's Eye combo to get your damage buff (and 100 Gauge), then swap stance to Deliverance. Heavy Swing, weave Berserk/Inner Beast, Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave, Infuriate, Fell Cleave, Maim, Fell Cleave, Storm's Path, Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave. Depending on Skill Speed you might be able to fit in the magical 7th Fell Cleave, if not just weave in Thrill of Battle + Upheaval to finish the combo. After that I usually just swap back to Defiance until Inner Beast's cooldown is back up to make things a little easier on the healer, but you should have such a massive Enmity lead that if the healer is comfortable you can probably spend the rest of the fight in Deliverance.

[Raids] I wouldn't bother stance dancing when you are still learning raid content, especially in Savage mode. Save it for progression and when you're up against a DPS Check/Enrage, and then do the same as above under Dungeons - Bosses. Stay in Defiance until you're up to 80 Beast Gauge, get to 100 gauge with your Storm's Eye combo, do your crazy Fell Cleave combo, then back to Defiance (unless you're very confident in your healer). If you are planning to spend more time in Deliverance I would make sure your OT knows to use the Provoke + Shirk combo frequently so you don't fall behind on aggro; even with all the Fell Cleaves and the early opening aggro spike it's easy for RDM and SAM to rip stuff off of you if you have to miss a GCD or two when avoiding mechanics.

In general, if you are going to be staying in Deliverance because you trust your Healer, you're going to have basically unlimited TP in boss encounters, so it is still worth swapping to Defiance briefly to pop Equilibrium in a pinch (Saving Equilibrium in OS1 helps a lot after Charybdis so the healers can focus more on picking up the offtank for that upcoming Twin Bolt).

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Originally Posted by Varyntheos

I just started playing FFXIV this weekend and jumped right into tanking on Warrior *just hit 30* And has been fun up to doing a Thousand Maws which I died for the first time on final boss, part of it was because the pre-video watched going into it said you had to kill all the pods *but that is a different story lol. But coming from WoW I think I am getting confused with all the talk of Stance dancing and most Warrior guides I find are for level 70 but after switching to the Warrior upgrade I guess I got confused on what CDs to use and rotation in general.

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Ahh yeah, guides for level 70 (Especially end-game stuff) will be confusing.

Basically, for leveling up to 70 (Also, at level 70 until you get pretty good gear) you'll want to be mainly having Defiance active while you're tanking.

Rotation should be Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder > Butcher's Block against single targets and Overpower against 3+ enemies.
Upon level 35 you'll gain access to Inner Beast, which you'll want to use as you fill up your Beast Gauge (You'll find out more about this as you hit level 35 so don't worry) ideally waiting until your next attack will put you over 100 gauge before using it (Though, if you need its healing/damage reduction use it earlier!)

Upon level 38, you'll get the skill Storm's Path which will take over as your main rotation. So you'll be using Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path for single targets. Unless you notice that someone in your party is very high on enmity (Next to the members of your party, you'll see the enmity bars so if one of the people in your party has one that is very full they're at risk of getting aggro) then you'll use a Butcher's Block combo for the enmity.

Finally, upon level 50 you'll get the skill Storm's Eye which will then supplement your main rotation. Essentially you'll alternate between Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Path and Heavy Swing > Maim > Storm's Eye to maintain the damage buff provided by Storm's Eye (Typically it's about 2x Storm's Path combos 1x Storm's Eye combo. Generally is about what the duration allows for)

For CD's your main ones are:

Rampart (Role Action skill learned at level 8)
Reprisal (Role Action skill learned at level 32) - This one is for use when a boss does an AoE attack.
Vengeance (Obtained at level 46)

You'll also have some less generally useful ones that will provide you with some nice benefit in certain situations:

Anticipation (Role Action skill learned at level 24) is useful against groups of enemies and basically can be used as and when available. It's not guaranteed mitigation nor does it affect spells, so it has limited use to counter boss abilities.
Thrill of Battle (Obtained at level 26) will mostly be useful to you for the heal it provides. In end-game content its use becomes to help counter specific boss skills that burst for high amounts of damage.
Raw Intuition (Obtained at level 56) this is an awkward CD. Since often you'll want to use it alongside Awareness (Role Action skill learned at level 36) and much like Anticipation, it does not affect spells. Giving it limited use to counter boss abilities. Though it's great against trash mobs, provided you use Awareness (If you don't use awareness, this thing will kill you faster than you can say "Oops")

Have fun :)

You're seriously posting this and then not telling us the story? No fair!

Valdima I hear ya 100%. XD I've found DPS feels most comfortable to me, but am cautiously branching to try my hand at healing with an alt. Tanks seem like they not only need to know their rotation, how to pace, how to direct aggro, how to position enemies, etc. but any steps needed to clear a dungeon too and that level of confidence in game progression can be a little daunting imo.

But for what it's worth. I've actually found that it can be helpful to level up like crazy as DPS (or theoretically as healer), get great gear and mana and fighting confidence. Unsync, then dive into the dungeon you want to learn as DPS. That front at least, if leading is the issue, you can make sure you're comfortable in all the steps needed to clear efficiently without inconveniencing anyone else. Rotation etc. is its own beast, but idk if this might help?

Seems to me that people who get put off Tanking are those who put far too much pressure on themselves.
Tanking might seem daunting at first, because there's a degree of responsibility there, but it's really one of the easier roles to play.

Tanks don't really have any rotation, their skillsets are simple and mostly straightforward, at least up until 60+, and they have an 'easy mode' called 'Tank Stance' where as long as you're using your emnity combo and AoE pull skill, you really can't go wrong at all.
It's ok to do just that when you're learning the role, and forget all about your DPS output. What's the worst that could happen? Some neckbeard gets a little irate that he finished the dungeon in 13 minutes instead of 10. Just be polite and tell them you're new to tanking.
The onus is far more on the Healer, providing you have adequate gear.

As someone who dabbles in all three roles at end game, I have to say that DPS and Healers have a far tougher job of it. Healers have to be much quicker to keep everyone alive, and DPS are under more pressure to perform well to achieve their numbers.
Before endgame? There's more slack on Healers and DPS sure, but the Tanks aren't exactly more difficult to play, there's less cause to use your big ticket migitators for one thing as deadly tank busters aren't really a thing.

There's only a few rules you have to follow:
Be the first to attack an enemy.
Face enemies away from the party (unless they have a rear attack)
Don't move the boss too much unless absolutely necessary.

Tanking can be very intimidating when starting out. I found that many groups are in a go-go-go mentality and have no patience for those who are learning. I'd like to tell you this subsides after a particular level, but I encountered these types of groups all throughout my leveling experience. Having said that, many struggles of the new tank typically stems from a lack of confidence. Unfortunately, the only way to remedy this continue tanking.... that's the only way to build that confidence and experience. Yes, you're going to have crap groups. Yes, you're going to wipe. Yes, you're going to cause the wipes from time to time. But.... you'll learn from it. It helps to make you a better tank. Try not to get too discouraged. Prior to my Warrior, I was a dps main. Leveling my Warrior was rough. We inherently take more damage than the other tanks due to our tank stance not providing a passive damage reduction. I was getting trucked in just about every dungeon, regardless of the CDs that I popped. I was close to just giving up when I came here for some guidance. People told me the same thing I'm telling you.... it happens. We all go/went through it. It gets better.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

their skillsets are simple and mostly straightforward

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To be fair, sometimes simplicity is actually complexity.

Especially for Tanks where you need to be able to respond to things happening.

FFXIV's Tanks "Simple" kits actually make things more complex to deal with.

One example is Paladin, they don't get AoE damage until after level 40 when they pick up Total Eclipse at level 46 (Also Circle of Scorn at level 50) this means before that point, in any AoE situation they have to choose to spam Flash or to use their ST combo to deal damage. This adds complexity due to the "Simple" nature of trying to not add too many skills early on (Then after 46 they have the issue where their bonus enmity is tied to Flash and not Total Eclipse so they choose between AoE enmity or AoE damage...)

Another thing is only DRK has a persistent AoE effect. Which means that even IF you know that adds will spawn from over *there*, you can't do anything about it because all your tools are PBAoE/Cones. While your healer will be generating global enmity on every target in combat irregardless of where they are.

So you have to be able to move to intercept (Then also try and get the game's spaghetti code to actually have all of the targets notice that you used an AoE and not have some of them get missed and continue charging at your healers face) or somehow figure out how to position where they spawn in the first place.

You also have few to no oGCD actions that you can use. Meaning if you're not prepared with the correct skill to use to pick up targets or you've just picked up targets after having an AoE skill miss so you picked up a straggler with your ranged skill, then you're delaying putting notable enmity onto the targets, which can be a problem with trigger happy DPS, especially those that can alpha hard with a bunch of oGCD damage skills (Heck, even healers will burst heal with oGCD heals)

So yeah... Simple skillsets can sometimes cause more complex gameplay because you have to try and brute force that simple skillset to adapt to different situations even if it's not designed with that in mind.

So you get things like tabbing through packs with your enmity combo... Sometimes you might have to go run and stand on the healer to make sure your AoE hits all the adds that have spawned and rushed right for them... Sometimes you need to pick up adds but it's too dangerous to go stand by your party because cleaves, so you're forced to toss ranged skills at adds one at a time and hope a single hit does enough enmity because Provoke has a long CD...

Really the moral of this is that sometimes making Tanks "Simple" actually makes them harder because you then lack good tools to deal with situations. Meanwhile, we have a plethora of bloat skills that are hyper situational...

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Originally Posted by Nerael

It'll get better. Tanking gets easier the more experienced you get.
As a fresh tank my friends made it sport to pull off me at every turn. Hell I did the same to my girlfriend when she tanked the first time.
But it made me a better tank; they still try at times, but fail miserably.

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This doesn't sound like a recipe for building a good tank to me. In fact it sounds like your "friends" intentionally hindered your progress and attempted to mold you into a shield-oath-and-aggro-combo-only turtle in a shell instead of a real FFXIV-style tank. If DPS are "trying to pull off me at every turn" and intentionally not attempting to reduce their own enmity generation then those DPS are dicks who are holding the whole party back. More enmity does not mean more DPS. You can do amazing DPS without ripping hate, not on accident and certainly not on purpose. Similarly, when DPS are being dicks and actively trying to rip hate off the tank, then they make it impossible for the tank to do decent amounts of damage. AKA they slow the whole run down for no reason other than to ignorantly stoke their own ego.

Get better friends.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

This doesn't sound like a recipe for building a good tank to me. In fact it sounds like your "friends" intentionally hindered your progress and attempted to mold you into a shield-oath-and-aggro-combo-only turtle in a shell instead of a real FFXIV-style tank. If DPS are "trying to pull off me at every turn" and intentionally not attempting to reduce their own enmity generation then those DPS are dicks who are holding the whole party back. More enmity does not mean more DPS. You can do amazing DPS without ripping hate, not on accident and certainly not on purpose. Similarly, when DPS are being dicks and actively trying to rip hate off the tank, then they make it impossible for the tank to do decent amounts of damage. AKA they slow the whole run down for no reason other than to ignorantly stoke their own ego.

Get better friends.

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Ah yes, i should've expected a response like this and will leave you in your bubble where DPS always use diversion and perform perfect rotations, people do mechanics perfectly, tanks pop cooldowns and never lose aggro, while the healers never need to res and will be DPSing beyond the occasional heal. Everyone has Best in slot gear and everyone communicates like a well oiled machine.

Reality however is; you will get great players and horrendous players. Experienced players and brand new. Even the best, most experienced player will mess up from time-to-time.

Experiencing a wide-range of situations from best to worst will give you experience and confidence, making you a better player (this counts for all classes btw).

Having friends jokingly pull off you every now and then, in a controlled environment (which in my case was a full premade party), where the healer can handle any situation thrown at them is perfectly fine. A firefighter also practices putting out fires in a controlled environment before handling a real one. Theoretical knowledge will only get you so far.

A tank which has his mettle tested again and again will be better than one which has never had his mettle tested before. They won't crumble under pressure, they will not panic, they will do exactly what they need to, when they need to.

You seemed to have let the entire point of my post go way over your head, so far in fact that based off of 4 lines of text; i need to replace my friends according to you. The entire point of my post was to get more experienced and you will get more comfortable tanking. Get people to help you out if need be and you'll be perfectly fine.

To finalize my response to you; I'm a WAR main atm whom has been tanking 5+ years, if you think I live in Defiance instead of the glory that comes with Deliverance aka Internal Release and Fell cleave/Decimate you are sorely mistaken.

If you've never had friends which pushed you to improve yourself and at the same time joke around with, then it is I who pity you and would advise you the exact same thing which you advised me "Get better friends".

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Originally Posted by Nerael

Ah yes, i should've expected a response like this and will leave you in your bubble where DPS always use diversion and perform perfect rotations, people do mechanics perfectly, tanks pop cooldowns and never lose aggro, while the healers never need to res and will be DPSing beyond the occasional heal. Everyone has Best in slot gear and everyone communicates like a well oiled machine.

Reality however is; you will get great players and horrendous players. Experienced players and brand new. Even the best, most experienced player will mess up from time-to-time.

Experiencing a wide-range of situations from best to worst will give you experience and confidence, making you a better player (this counts for all classes btw).

Having friends jokingly pull off you every now and then, in a controlled environment (which in my case was a full premade party), where the healer can handle any situation thrown at them is perfectly fine. A firefighter also practices putting out fires in a controlled environment before handling a real one. Theoretical knowledge will only get you so far.

A tank which has his mettle tested again and again will be better than one which has never had his mettle tested before. They won't crumble under pressure, they will not panic, they will do exactly what they need to, when they need to.

You seemed to have let the entire point of my post go way over your head, so far in fact that based off of 4 lines of text; i need to replace my friends according to you. The entire point of my post was to get more experienced and you will get more comfortable tanking. Get people to help you out if need be and you'll be perfectly fine.

To finalize my response to you; I'm a WAR main atm whom has been tanking 5+ years, if you think I live in Defiance instead of the glory that comes with Deliverance aka Internal Release and Fell cleave/Decimate you are sorely mistaken.

If you've never had friends which pushed you to improve yourself and at the same time joke around with, then it is I who pity you and would advise you the exact same thing which you advised me "Get better friends".

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IDK. I would never do that while teaching someone how to tank. I would explain to them how to play at an optimal level and I wouldnt do anything differently than I normally would do. That way, they know what right looks like. Sure they will get those people that don't use any enmity reduction skills, but those same people don't always have perfect rotations either so you don't always loose hate. I sometimes let those DPS die, then explain to them later about the tools they could be using to not rip aggro. Usually though I'm nice about it and take the boss back and ask them if they have diversion, lucid dreaming, etc. after the pull. If they don't listen they can die, they will learn eventually and that's one way to reset the aggro. (I also only let DPS die if I know we won't wipe from missing their damage)

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Originally Posted by Nerael

Having friends jokingly pull off you every now and then, in a controlled environment (which in my case was a full premade party), where the healer can handle any situation thrown at them is perfectly fine. A firefighter also practices putting out fires in a controlled environment before handling a real one. Theoretical knowledge will only get you so far.

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I don't know a whole lot about fire fighting, but I would imagine when they learn how to put them out their friends aren't throwing gasoline into it. It is the fundamentals that are the most important to learn, not the intangibles. The latter is learned through experience and cannot be forced, so when your buddies are intentionally trying to rip hate from you the only thing you're learning is what players do to work against you. Sure, you are going to run into these players but in these situations it is the fundamentals of tanking that will make it harder if not outright impossible for them to rip hate from you.

So if you want to talk about learning to tank properly in less then ideal circumstances and mentioning how players will not always be working with you, I would stay away from comments talking about allowing shitty play in "controlled environments".

When my friends and guildmates helped me to learn and pick up tanking, they offered constructive criticism when I could be doing things better and were there to pick me up if I had a discouraging experience with other players in DF. They would encourage me to pull larger, and when they saw I was getting better they would tell me to be on top of things because they are going to go ham on the next pull. My armor might not be as thick as yours, but if I had your friends I wouldn't be tanking in this game.

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Originally Posted by kashi11

IDK. I would never do that while teaching someone how to tank. I would explain to them how to play at an optimal level

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That's like teaching a kindergartner about abstract cubism when they aren't even coloring inside the lines yet. Nobody starts at an optimal level. You teach the basics first, which are exactly two things as a tank. Keep aggro and don't die.

I taught someone to tank this way before, and while they weren't perfect immediately, they picked up the basics quickly. Being well informed and aware of what they can improve on from the very beginning allows them to constantly grow and make adjustments on the fly. I'd rather tell them all they need to know from the get go, see what they absorb, then make small corrections and reminders here and there. Practice doesnt always make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Just don't play as a healer if think tank job is bad. Healers get no respect. Dps is safe route to play.

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Originally Posted by Nerael

A tank which has his mettle tested again and again will be better than one which has never had his mettle tested before. They won't crumble under pressure, they will not panic, they will do exactly what they need to, when they need to.

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Unless you shirked them and let them die when they went out of their way to try to steal hate from you, then them trying to steal hate from you did not teach you anything useful at all.

One can be tested tanking only with pugs....

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Just don't play as a healer if think tank job is bad. Healers get no respect. Dps is safe route to play.

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I think that's an over simplification.

*In all content up to EX/Savage*
Good healers get ignored, (unless it's acknowledgement from another healer) - bad ones get called out occasionally. If it's an 8 man a good healer can carry the other.
It's rare that a DPS questions a healer in my experience.
Bad tanks can be carried by a good healer and are usually forgiven for most mistakes as they have the privilege of being considered rare.

In my experience bad DPS are the first to be called out as they are perceived as dispensable.

*Your mileage may vary, obviously.

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Originally Posted by Nerael

Ah yes, i should've expected a response like this and will leave you in your bubble where DPS always use diversion and perform perfect rotations, people do mechanics perfectly, tanks pop cooldowns and never lose aggro, while the healers never need to res and will be DPSing beyond the occasional heal. Everyone has Best in slot gear and everyone communicates like a well oiled machine.

Reality however is; you will get great players and horrendous players. Experienced players and brand new. Even the best, most experienced player will mess up from time-to-time.

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So your friends could have just stopping being jerks and told you: Get always best gear you can get (even if GIL needed) to bypass all situation.

Healer is not having best gear? -> Your gear is bypassing that
DPS kills not fast enough? -> Your gear is bypassing that
Bad equipped DPS tries to get enmity -> Ahaha! Your gear is bypassing that!
BiS DPS are trying to get enmity -> Either your gear is still bypassing that or reread a guide for enmity rota


You cannot agure with "that is in my optinion best to learn it" if almost all cases can be ignored if tank has best gear. PLD can even heal themself.... also can you not throw "DPS tries to get enmity" with "DPS are not doing best rotation and not having best gear" in one statement. Let them try to get enmity as it will not bother you in anyway.... if it does... well... your problem is not "unexpected moments" but how to tank 101