How to make tanking fun.

I've been trying to get use to tanking in preperations for Gunbreaker. I've only been using PLD but even when OTing I'm bored out of my mind.

Any suggestions?

Play Dark Knight.

Get into DPS optimisation, like any class trying to stay aligned with raid buffs, snapshotting your dots ect. As OT try doing stuff like cover mitigating tank busts, paying attention to when raid wides happen and mitigating them with reprisal and other skills. In dungeons on things that arn't pally dropping tank stance in trash pulls to pump out dps can be pretty fun. I agree with the post above me though, despite drk having 1 dps combo, having high apm and thinking about best times to dump mana and gauge and build gauge to take advantage of buffs is quite fun.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Play Dark Knight.

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OP... there's your answer.

Play DRK. (3rded)

Seriously, it's a lot busier and more involved than PLD. I used to main PLD and switched to DRK ASAP.

While Paladin is the last MT in the current state... it’s the worst one to get used to tanking at all in the end... i would claim Drk as well.

Tanking is already fun.

Suggest that everyone in the group call you “Daddy”

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Originally Posted by Gramis

Suggest that everyone in the group call you “Daddy”

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This!!!

Everyone in my group calls me Daddy... And it is really fun.


Mind you though, I call my static's healer Daddy, otherwise she won't heal me. :(

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Play DRK. (3rded)

Seriously, it's a lot busier and more involved than PLD. I used to main PLD and switched to DRK ASAP.

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Agreed. (4thed)

DRK is definitely more interesting. I lost interest in PLD pretty fast. I don't really know what they did to it, because I enjoyed it back in HW at lvl 60.

I think it because they removed rage of halone’s strength debuff. Also I agree, I loved paladin a lot back in HW, even went through the trouble of getting its anima weapon. It was a lot busier back then with it’s management of its dot and strength debuff and using royal authority for dps. Now it just feels less... involved unless you’re OT’ing I guess. I honestly just moved on to WAR, and I’m just waiting to see how they’ll go about fixing DRK(if they even do) when Shadowbringers comes out.

In dungeons, I'd like to see more things like the steam vents in sohm al hard or the water spouts int he last part of arboretum hard, where you can position enemies to take extra damage etc. Having reasons to position trash mobs or bosses in certain places for added benefits like that is one way to make things a bit more interesting potentially without falling back on dps optimization. I'd also like to see more activie mitigation stuff but to make it rewarding they would risk either making it OP or having tanks that don't know what they're doing in PF crumple into dust without it.

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Originally Posted by colorbanditblk

I think it because they removed rage of halone’s strength debuff. Also I agree, I loved paladin a lot back in HW, even went through the trouble of getting its anima weapon. It was a lot busier back then with it’s management of its dot and strength debuff and using royal authority for dps. Now it just feels less... involved unless you’re OT’ing I guess. I honestly just moved on to WAR, and I’m just waiting to see how they’ll go about fixing DRK(if they even do) when Shadowbringers comes out.

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I disagree a bit. Yeah we lost the ROH debuff, but we gained requiscat > holy spirit spam, so I feel like all in all pld is more involved than in HW.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I'd also like to see more activie mitigation stuff but to make it rewarding they would risk either making it OP or having tanks that don't know what they're doing in PF crumple into dust without it.

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If that's the concern, they could always try and implement something to help teach players.

Something akin to the Sacred Trials that WoW had or the Training Room from BnS.

Where there would be mechanics (Or combos) that literally would teach you how to perform as your class/role.

For example, Sacred Trials had things like debuffs to cleanse as a Healer, adds to tank and reposition as a Tank (Including some that would use Tankbusters or would periodically drop aggro), DPS had to switch between ST and AoE, move out of things and use their damage CD's at opportune times.

While Training Rooms would get you to use certain combos so you knew how to play the class optimally, opening up new synergies as you leveled up and acquired new skills.

At some point, WoW even had the Trials as a pre-requisite for using Dungeon Finders (You had to get at least Silver). Until people complained that it was too hard to mash their face onto their keyboard and pass them and it was removed...

But essentially, it would be like Guildhests, only actually useful.

In regards to making PLD as an OT more engaging, make sure to use your tools and specifically Intervention. It is astounding how rarely I ever see a PLD OT actually use Intervention.
As a PLD you only have two uses for your Oath gauge, Sheltron which does little good as an OT and Intervention which you can use on the MT and help out by lessening damage taken. If you are just sitting on your Oath as OT and aren't using Intervention, you are not playing PLD to it's fullest and will likely not find PLD interesting.

Also, I have noticed a distinct rise recently in people saying that "active mitigation" is the solution to making tanks more fun to play. I really think people need to be more specific about what they are talking about in regards to this because I see many people throw this term around far too generally and at times just straight up incorrectly.
Active mitigation is mitigation/defense that you actively engage, like a defensive ability that you press a button to engage when needed.
Passive mitigation is mitigation/defense that exists passively within an ability or state, for example the 20% mitigation that you get from Shield Oath or Grit is passive mitigation. One could also define the self-healing from attack abilities that are used as part of regular attack rotations, such as Storm's Path, as a form of passive mitigation.
So by definition many of the defensive aspects and abilities of tanks in FF14 are in fact active mitigation.
Now if we factor in the more recent vernacular of active mitigation which describes active mitigation as being abilities that are used more frequently but have a very short duration, that have to be timed more precisely to defend against telegraphed or timed hard-hitting attacks (tankbusters); FF14 also has those as well in the form of TBN, Sheltron and Inner Beast.
So let's please avoid just saying "we need more active mitigation" and actually present more thought out and detailed ideas and solutions.

Basically what I mean more specifically is weaving defensive stuff into the rotation more. We sort of had that before with the rage of halone debuff to an extent, doing that combo now and then reduced incoming damage. DRK has it to a degree I think with its dps combo restoring some hp. I do like Sheldron and TBN. I just wish a bit more thought and effort went into raising defenses beyond 'pop a cooldown for that tank buster.' Something to make the rotation not just about dealing damage but also increasing our defenses in some way. Problem with that though is too much of it either leads to immortal tanks or newer/less skilled tanks getting crumpled for not doing things properly. And if they make it too weak then people would just ignore it and focus on damage anyway. For example let's say every holy spirit you pull off with the requiscat buff put a stacking debuff on the enemy to lower damage or a buff on you to reduce damage.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Also, I have noticed a distinct rise recently in people saying that "active mitigation" is the solution to making tanks more fun to play. I really think people need to be more specific about what they are talking about in regards to this because I see many people throw this term around far too generally and at times just straight up incorrectly.

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Active Mitigation, generally refers to mitigation that is used within a rotation.

It generally doesn't refer to CD's (Though, you can argue semantics that you "Actively" press the CD button for the effect)

It generally replaces Passive Mitigation and so means that in order to stay alive, you can't just stand there and do nothing, you have to instead actively be attacking in order to gain your mitigation.

There are a few examples of this in the game, though they are quite low impact or outright useless:

DRK's have their Souleater providing healing as well as TBN for significant shielding.

WAR's have Storm's Path providing healing as well as Inner Beast providing healing and damage mitigation and Steel Cyclone providing healing.

PLD's have Shelltron for a guaranteed block as well as Flash for guaranteed Blind (You can also argue Shield Swipe because Pacification, though I've yet to actually see that do something)

These are all traditional forms of what is generally referred to as "Active Mitigation". But as you might note, they're not particularly exciting. Either having very small effects (The self healing from Souleater/Storm's Path and even Inner Beast/Steel Cyclone outside of Inner Release. Also Shelltron, especially against multiple targets, 20% off the next attack...) or are not impactful enough/necessary compared to DPS skills that share their resource (Fell Cleave/Upheaval > Inner Beast/Steel Cyclone for example)

Especially when you consider how high Passive Mitigation tends to be in this game, compared to games where they're designed around using Active Mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Active Mitigation, generally refers to mitigation that is used within a rotation.

It generally doesn't refer to CD's (Though, you can argue semantics that you "Actively" press the CD button for the effect)

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I don't believe that to be correct.
While I hate to point to WoW related things in regards to defining things in MMOs, this gives a decent general overview of the idea of active mitigation through the lens of WoW.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Active_Mitigation

"With Mists of Pandaria the various tanks gained short-cooldown abilities that embody active mitigation. Tanks who use these abilities optimally will be able to overcome challenges that would defeat a less skilled tank."

"The term "Active Mitigation" now refers to a single, specific ability that a Tank must use as a counter to specific Boss abilities. These Boss abilities are designated as Mitigation Checks."

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

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I would posit that debuffs/buffs akin to the old RoH debuff and the damage up buff of Storm's Eye is arguably more passive mitigation than active mitigation since it is just a longer duration buff/debuff that is maintained near indefinitely through regular usage of standard ability rotations.
So I am not sure that labeling such ideas as "needing more active mitigation" is necessarily accurate, however when laid out in actual detail asking for more defensive elements contained within offensive abilities is a valid argument to work from.

I disagree with the integration, or reintegration, of things like the debuff from the old RoH or Delerium combo. They are just there, require minimal thought or interaction and game-playwise add little to how a job plays that couldn't be implemented better in a different way. In the end they effectively not too different than a constant buff like the tank-stance defensive buff. They are just there and are kept up by doing what you would be doing regardless.

On the other hand I am a big proponent of the idea of the interplay between offense and defense in tank game-play and see abilities and ability interactions like the idea of riposte attacks such as is present in Block-->Shield Swipe or the old way in which Reprisal would get it's cooldown reset which was great because it had a three part interplay in which taking advantage of defense with Anticipation would help enable you to make an attack with Reprisal that also provided defense. Another good example is the TBN -> Quietus interaction.

Then if in addition they rolled in choice and risk/reward into these abilities and their interactions I feel that we would be moving in the correct direction.
For example let's look at one of the more reviled tank abilities, Living Dead. What if they added in the effect that when in Walking Dead state the DRK gets a damage up buff? Now you have risk/reward structure of trying to ride out the duration to maximize the buff while risking death or playing it safe and cleansing it early. I'm not saying that they need to do this exact example, just an example of the type of things that could be done to make offense, defense and the interplay of them more interesting on tanks.

Depends on why you find tanking boring.

Tanking is literally the exact same as any other melee class, except the enemy is facing you and you have to manage more concepts of the game.




Such as using defensive cooldowns and keeping the party safe from the boss. I.E. not facing the boss to the party when they are doing a cleave for example.

As someone who plays tank healer and dps, dps by far is the most boring as you only have to do your rotation and dodge/worry about half of what the tank does.

In fact, playing an off tank is only slightly less boring than a melee dps class because you only have to worry about any potential adds or tank swaps, which is the exact same mechanics as a melee dps except more.

So you cant possibly be referring to the amount of things you are faced with.

If its the low numbers you are bored with, try warrior. But in my opinion warrior is the most boring tank because I like staying busy and 90%+ of all of warriors actions are on the "global cooldown" making for some extremely slow gameplay. Which Paladin is much more enjoyable. Dark Knight as mentioned before, has the most off globals...

Dark Knight is a bad choice if the amount of "combos" you can do is the reason you are bored. Dark Knight only has Soul Eater. I strongly advise against ever using Power Slash, as there is no benefit to it if you arent severely undergeared.

So again it just comes down to why you are bored. You need to say what is boring for people to offer you suggestions.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I don't believe that to be correct.
While I hate to point to WoW related things in regards to defining things in MMOs, this gives a decent general overview of the idea of active mitigation through the lens of WoW.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Active_Mitigation

"With Mists of Pandaria the various tanks gained short-cooldown abilities that embody active mitigation. Tanks who use these abilities optimally will be able to overcome challenges that would defeat a less skilled tank."

"The term "Active Mitigation" now refers to a single, specific ability that a Tank must use as a counter to specific Boss abilities. These Boss abilities are designated as Mitigation Checks."

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If you read that page in its entirety, both types of ability are still part of the "Active Mitigation Model"

It's just that, WoW decided to arbitrarily utilize the Active Mitigation term in reference to countering Tankbusters (Called "Mitigation Checks") so that they could for some reason, make it so that every tank had exactly 1 button to press when a boss did a specific Tankbuster.

Also, if you note the abilities that are referred to, they aren't CD's such as Sentinel or Vengeance, but low CD skills that would be used within a rotation (Such as Inner Beast or Souleater)

The first line of that page is the general overview of Active Mitigation:

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Active mitigation is a model for tanking, first implemented with Mists of Pandaria, which requires tanks to play an active role in their own damage mitigation.

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Thus, as I said, you can be pedantic and call CD's "Active Mitigation", but often the term is relating to short cooldown skills that are weaved into a rotation (Or make up part of the rotation itself such as Death Strike for DK's, Shield of the Righteous for Paladins and Shield Block for Warriors)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

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I did read the entirety of the page and am most definitely not being pedantic.

The description that was given regarding a shift to a more "Active Mitigation model" in which tanks were required to be more "active" in their defense is very similar to the model that FF14 has used for quite a while, focusing on low consistent incoming damage with spikes of high incoming damage through things like tankbusters and abilities designed to counter those damage spikes.
This is juxtaposed by the fairly common tanking model that existed before in MMOs in which defense and incoming damage on the tank was more a battle of attrition where damage was fairly constant and defenses tended to be more passive in implementation, relying on stances or passive ability buffs gained through specialization trees and the like.

Basically the concept of the "Active Mitigation model" that they went over was the more general design concept and delineation of active vs. passive and how that plays into encounter and ability design. Active being abilities that are designed to be activated in response to periods of spike damage and passive being the stuff that just kind of happens in the background that tends to help with just general survivability and lessening damage consistently and being relatively constant over a long period of time.

The more refined idea of "Active Mitigation abilities" that evolved in Legion is something that I also touched upon in my initial post on the matter, pointing out the evolution and implementation of such abilities in FF14 as well with IB, TBN and Sheltron.
WoW just went all-in to one extreme (surprise ... surprise ...) on the conceptual implementation of Active Mitigation, shrinking the breadth of mitigation and highly focusing it into one ability that needs to get used over and over.
FF14 on the other hand did a more measured and mixed approach, where they kept the idea of a number of varied mitigation abilities, paced out by cooldown times but still having relatively shorter durations to be used to counter moments of spike damage but also layered in the short to no cooldown time abilities with very short durations which are gated by other things such as resources akin to what WoW did in Legion.

Both are methods of Active Mitigation design, just with variances of implementation. Spread out or consolidated.

Active mitigation is not determined by it being a part of a rotation, although an ability that provides defense that is part of a rotation can be Active Mitigation.
I feel the confusion likely comes from the implementation in Legion where mitigation was so consolidated, that it resulted in one ability being used over and over regularly and thus being factored into being a part of your standard rotation. This was probably compounded by many of the early implemented abilities along this vein having the mitigation aspect tacked onto an offensive ability.
This is only one heavily skewed implementation of what Active Mitigation can be and by no means is the very definition of it.

So again I state, Active Mitigation is when mitigation is designed to be actively engaged in response to damage and attacks, whereas Passive Mitigation is mitigation that is designed to simply exist passively and fairly consistently without real extra thought or engagement on the player's part.
It is these such variances in design and implementation of Active Mitigation that caused me to ask that people not just generally throw the term around without better defining what they mean.

Also, I think it goes without saying that falling to ad hominems such as calling someone pedantic doesn't strengthen your argument.

I think it would make tank more fun if all your abilities were different when you were in one stance or another, or not in tank stance if they were to get rid of dps stance. For instance when you're in tank stance you generate enmity, your defensive abilities mitigate damage, etc, etc. But when you are in tank stance or normal stance you no longer generate extra enmity, your defensive abilities now do dps abilities. For example your shield wall or shield block abilities make your shield swipe do more damage or have no cool down or something. This is just paladin example tho. I think it would give tanks more stuff to do during off tank, but making your tanking stance more important cause you couldn't keep hate outside of tank stance.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I don't believe that to be correct.
While I hate to point to WoW related things in regards to defining things in MMOs, this gives a decent general overview of the idea of active mitigation through the lens of WoW.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Active_Mitigation

"With Mists of Pandaria the various tanks gained short-cooldown abilities that embody active mitigation. Tanks who use these abilities optimally will be able to overcome challenges that would defeat a less skilled tank."

"The term "Active Mitigation" now refers to a single, specific ability that a Tank must use as a counter to specific Boss abilities. These Boss abilities are designated as Mitigation Checks."

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I have to agree with Kalise on this one. Active mitigation typically has to be something that is not reserved for express use. If it could, it wouldn't require any active efforts on the player's part to prepare for the coming damage, merely a timer of sorts. There has to be an integral means of compromise available to be manipulated, decisively and timely, towards mitigation.

How WoW decides to redefine the term as in order to offer additional gimmicks and continue not to have much actual active mitigation is of no consequence to its typical meaning.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Also, I think it goes without saying that falling to ad hominems such as calling someone pedantic doesn't strengthen your argument.

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I never called anyone pedantic.

I merely stated that it would be pedantic to be trying to break things down to stuff like "You technically activate CD's therefore they're 'Active Mitigation'". Since similar logic allows one to say "You technically activate defensive stances, therefore they're 'Active Mitigation'"

Both of which are rarely, if ever, referenced under the term "Active Mitigation"

In terms of WoW, Active Mitigation existed well before Pandaria.

Warriors have had Shield Block and Paladins have had Holy Shield (Later named Shield of the Righteous) forever, which were active skills that they would use frequently to reduce the average amount of damage they took throughout an engagement. Not always a direct response to incoming damage or a telegraphed burst (Especially since they were only block chance increases so ineffective against most sources of burst damage which were spells or abilities) but essentially taking the place of Passive Mitigation in a way that required them to be active in a fight.

With WotLK there was the release of DK which has been the epitome of "Active Mitigation" in its use of Death Strike for self healing and shielding. Again, often used throughout an encounter for replacing Passive Mitigation. Though, there was also some usage in a Legion style burst counter by gaming your Death Strikes by intentionally taking damage before a tankbuster so it would provide a larger shield to let you mitigate the burst damage (Especially when you didn't have a Priest for shielding), this however was not widely utilized and was mostly for the min/max raider types, as it required co-ordination with your healers to make sure you were kept alive while you soaked the damage and healed to full before the tankbuster came.

In Cataclysm, Druids got their first taste of Active Mitigation, with Savage Defense, which would provide them with an absorb shield based on their attack power and cost a whopping 60 Rage to activate, this meant that this truly required Active participation in a fight in order to generate Rage to use this (Along with their other skills for damage and threat). Cata is also where other Tanks active mitigations started to be tied to resource generation from combat, with such things as DK's gaining Runes back faster when they spent Runic Power.

Then Pandaria is when all Tanks were designed to have to manage Active Mitigation that often required resource management (Through fighting), such as Rage generation (For Warriors and Druids), Holy Power generation for Paladins, Rune regeneration for DK's and Monks with Chi generation. This is when Active Mitigation began to involve more "Activity" in order to access the mitigation, creating more dynamic playstyles wherein you'd be pushing out DPS in order to get your resources for mitigation skills back (Some of which were also DPS increases, such as Warriors did bonus damage with Shield Slam while Shield Block was active, or how Paladins and DK's had their highest hitting attack be their active mitigation skills) so that you can survive in lieu of high passive mitigation.

Legion is where Active Mitigation was next altered, wherein they started making Tankbusters that REQUIRED one of these classes active mitigation skills in order to survive. Pushing them into this realm of "Saving it" for these TB's as opposed to using them freely to mitigate damage over the whole engagement (Also, serving to equalize tanks across the board in terms of available CD's to use vs Tankbusters which always favoured DK and Paladin for their numerous and powerful CD's while screwing over Warriors with their long CD's and Monks/Druids who just didn't really have much at all)

But prior to Legion, WoW (To say nothing of every other MMO) had Active Mitigation and it was almost exclusively used as a more engaging form of "Passive Mitigation" designed to be used frequently to decrease the average damage intake, with TB's still forcing out CD's in response and sometimes timing of Active Mitigation to prevent certain types of TB's (Such as block based AM used against auto-attack damage spikes, or DK's gaming their Blood Shields from Death Strike)

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I've been trying to get use to tanking in preperations for Gunbreaker. I've only been using PLD but even when OTing I'm bored out of my mind.

Any suggestions?

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Depends, what makes it boring for you while off-tanking?
When I OT i tend to behave like a DPS, there are not many occasions for me to do so. I take it as an opportunity to get accostumed to my rotation.

As a personal opinion:

In most games the OT role is often underrated (OT is often seen as the weaker tank) while in many, MANY occasions the OT does an harder job then a MT (like getting the aggro from a sudden wave of adds, pack em, turn em). This is usually VERY fast and much more skill demanding than surviving a boss.

If you play with a MT mate you could also work something togheter and "tank as one" (especially since you are a PAL) with not only tank swaps but also intervention/cover.

Also when they say that you should not MT they are actually saying "do not pull, you generate less burst-enmity than any other tank, there's the risk than in the first few seconds some DPS/healer will out-enmity you". This doesn't mean you should not "main tank" (tank the boss). It IS a perfectly valid option to make a WAR pull than shirk on you (especially < lvl 50 where all your combo WILL be Rage of Halone that will continue on generating aggro).

Tbh I started noticing this enmity "issue" with PAL only around level 55-60 (never had enmity issues before)

What level are you now? (Paladins tend to change A LOT and have little to do until level 55/60 as an off-tank).

BTW you can pull, you just loose some DPS for swapping stance (GCD) and delaying your rotation while other tanks does it faster.

If you want to MT just start a boss fight in shield oath->shield lob->Rage of Halone combo (2x)
Probably you'll get a block by this time and you can use shield swipe oGCD inbetween for more aggro

check on enmity and all the others should be next to 0% (if not they are probably to blame)

Swap to sword stance and start your standard rotation

This will delay your rotation (and lower your damage for 30 secs or so) but you shouldn't loose aggro in any circumstances (even with obsolete equipment).

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Originally Posted by Noldornir

Depends, what makes it boring for you while off-tanking?

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I think it's the fact that I mostly play DPS. My main is SAM. And the rotations for tanking / off-tanking just don't feel as complex to me? Then again I get bored easy which is why I tend to switch jobs a lot in Roulettes to keep it fresh somewhat. So maybe it's just the fact I've been using PLD only to try and prepare for Gunbreaker. Or my depression is kicking in and making things more boring than they are. Who knows lol. God I wish Gunbreaker had been a DPS ; ;

Play WAR or DRK. I only play my PLD when someone is already playing as DRK in the party.

PLD can be very boring especially in the early leveling dungeons and trials. I find PLD to be fun at lvl70 but anything below that its meh, same for DRK without TBN.

Tanking is a mindset. Rather than thinking of just targeting mobs and doing a rotation. Think more outside the box when attacking groups of enemies. Such as this mob is charging up a move better stun him, or this mob is casting a spell better silence, or AOE these mobs.

Dont think of tanking as just grabbing enemies and holding aggro, because with that mindset it becomes very very boring.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to agree with Kalise on this one. Active mitigation typically has to be something that is not reserved for express use. If it could, it wouldn't require any active efforts on the player's part to prepare for the coming damage, merely a timer of sorts. There has to be an integral means of compromise available to be manipulated, decisively and timely, towards mitigation.

How WoW decides to redefine the term as in order to offer additional gimmicks and continue not to have much actual active mitigation is of no consequence to its typical meaning.

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It depends if you're doing Mythic+ tanking it's no different than say an Expert in XIV where you save your CDs and cycle them for example, if you're doing a Mythic+10 you'll have 4 affixes affecting you and depending on the A) Dungeon B) Affixes C) Season affix (right now in BfA it's Reaping where all monsters you killed at a % percent completion come back to life to attack you all at once). You generally plan how you're going to do them based on your CDs, how to juggle them, your healers CDs, and Line of Sight if needed all comes into play. Raid tanking is more or less CD cycling on trash/tank CDs on bosses in BFA.

Honestly if XIV had Mythic+ dungeons I think it'd work very well if they redesigned tanking to a more Active Mitigation tanking or leave it as it is and add in Pomanders from PoTD/HoH to give it a unique FFXIV with it's own Affixes and I think it'd be better than WoWs.

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Originally Posted by Awful

It depends if you're doing Mythic+ tanking it's no different than say an Expert in XIV where you save your CDs and cycle them for example, if you're doing a Mythic+10 you'll have 4 affixes affecting you and depending on the A) Dungeon B) Affixes C) Season affix (right now in BfA it's Reaping where all monsters you killed at a % percent completion come back to life to attack you all at once). You generally plan how you're going to do them based on your CDs, how to juggle them, your healers CDs, and Line of Sight if needed all comes into play. Raid tanking is more or less CD cycling on trash/tank CDs on bosses in BFA.

Honestly if XIV had Mythic+ dungeons I think it'd work very well if they redesigned tanking to a more Active Mitigation tanking or leave it as it is and add in Pomanders from PoTD/HoH to give it a unique FFXIV with it's own Affixes and I think it'd be better than WoWs.

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I'm aware of the comparisons available to WoW's Mythic+ tanking -- I frequently run them on both BDK and Prot Warrior (finally highly desirable with Reaping affix) myself, along with healing them on Priest and Shaman -- but how WoW approaches active mitigation doesn't change what active mitigation is, nor that it has to be active (and integral) rather than simply time-deployed and/or separable.

I have no doubt, also, that XIV could do a better job of something like WoW's Mythic+'s affixes than WoW itself, but I'd prefer to see not only the means, but also the goal, made XIV's own. Simply slapping pomanders onto it will only make a gimmick-ridden and incohesive knock-off. There's a ton that they can do with cards, elements, and so forth in order to make not only unique gameplay, but unique progression and encapsulation for it all. True active mitigation would be slightly outside the point unless fit into systems that extend beyond the tank alone, but such improvements could be a hell of a boon, too.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm aware of the comparisons available to WoW's Mythic+ tanking -- I frequently run them on both BDK and Prot Warrior (finally highly desirable with Reaping affix) myself, along with healing them on Priest and Shaman -- but how WoW approaches active mitigation doesn't change what active mitigation is, nor that it has to be active (and integral) rather than simply time-deployed and/or separable.

I have no doubt, also, that XIV could do a better job of something like WoW's Mythic+'s affixes than WoW itself, but I'd prefer to see not only the means, but also the goal, made XIV's own. Simply slapping pomanders onto it will only make a gimmick-ridden and incohesive knock-off. There's a ton that they can do with cards, elements, and so forth in order to make not only unique gameplay, but unique progression and encapsulation for it all. True active mitigation would be slightly outside the point unless fit into systems that extend beyond the tank alone, but such improvements could be a hell of a boon, too.

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I'm totally in agreement with you I feel like extending that into tank gameplay alone could be one hell of a boon I'd welcome it honestly, as for Pomanders yeah it was mostly just an idea it's not the best but you adding in cards makes it way more diverse. And apologies you're right it doesn't change what active mitigation is or it to be "active" within the parameters of being time-deployed and separable, I just wish XIV had more diverseness within the tanks, which might change in 5.0 (hopefully).

I like how Blood DKs are in WoW (I'm playing one as well Prot War was my 2nd choice alongside DH even if they fell off, but I digress) as they fit their fantasy role as well as having their OH CRAP buttons such as Bonestorm for smoothing out damage and healing on AoE pulls, Vampiric Blood for strong burst healing, Ice Bound Fort, Anti-Magic Shield and Eternal Rune weapon. They fit their own class fantasy as well as being a very strong Mythic+ tank which is what I wish DRK was but I know they're 2 different games, DRK just doesn't have the self healing and is more of a hand cramp to play, I hope 5.0 we get more of WAR being a strong mitigator while DPSing, PLD being a utility tank for the party and itself and I have no idea what GUN will be.

Bottom line is if there was a Mythic+ system I'd want it fleshed out like you described as well as having diversified tanks with their own strong but different ways to mitigate, whether it be self heals, strong mitigation, or strong utility such as debuffing as well I find that WoW has quite diverse tanking combined with great class fantasy, now I don't want copies of them just those are ideas.

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Originally Posted by Awful

I just wish XIV had more diverseness within the tanks, which might change in 5.0 (hopefully).

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Yeah...

Though, if Active Mitigation was made more prevalent that would be a way to help diversify tanks somewhat, given that they all could utilize different types of Active Mitigation (Which is part of what helps other games Tanks diversify themselves)

For example:

PLD could gain more Block chances so would mitigate by blocking 20% of incoming damage. Maybe even let them block some spells too. Given they're currently the only Tank with a shield, they should have more focus on it.

WAR could gain more healing, including some percentage health healing. Maybe even some max health increases as active mitigation (Along with current health increases. Think mini-Thrill of Battle) - I imagine something akin to Black Orks in Warhammer Online where their strength was that they would constantly proc health boosts with their attacks (Though, a little less overtuned because BO's like couldn't die it often felt like xD)

DRK could get more focus on shielding. What with TBN already being a key point for them. Stuff like turning Souleater into shielding instead of healing and the like. They could even have some cool mechanics where they sacrifice a portion of their health to gain shields based on that health loss (I.e. Something like sac 10% max health, gain 15% max health as shield) allowing them the generate buffers as well as synergizing with HoTs better by being able to mitigate overhealing.

GUN could focus on damage reduction. Stuff like putting up temporary barriers that reduce incoming damage by a percentage (Kind of like Inner Beast does now).

This could then extend directly into diversity with DPS combos (Thus OT roles/DPS stances).

Such as PLD having more of their MT damage focused on Shield Swipe (Increase its potency, let blocks reduce its CD by 1 second or something) so they want to keep blocking attacks to keep their damage coming out. With DPS stance focusing on their blade attacks instead (I mean, they are called "Sword Oath" and "Shield Oath") - Could even let some of their combos differ to reflect this. I.e. Shield Oath incorporating higher enmity generating skills that smack with their shield, while DPS stance uses the current blade technique skills.

WAR could get more Upheaval style potency modifiers, adjusted slightly so it's based only on max health rather than current health. So when MT they wanna keep proccing more health increases to deal more damage. While in DPS stance they unleash their inner beast more and could get Blood for Blood style damage trade modifiers. They could also get a version of "Cover" that allows them to proc health increases on another target, giving them some utility in the OT role.

DRK already has a dichotomy within their class, which can be expanded on. Generating more MP and thus being able to use more DA's to empower their skills during Tank Stance. Meanwhile, Blood Weapon could be converted into a DPS stance for them and focus more on faster attacks and more Blood generation. With select shielding skills being converted into damage or skill speed boosts during DPS Stance.

GUN it's hard to say without any knowledge of the basis of their attacks... But at a guess their Tank stance could involve Hissatsu: Seigan style retaliation attacks, while their DPS stance focuses more on generating more ammo to use to enhance skills.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

I think it's the fact that I mostly play DPS. My main is SAM. And the rotations for tanking / off-tanking just don't feel as complex to me? Then again I get bored easy which is why I tend to switch jobs a lot in Roulettes to keep it fresh somewhat. So maybe it's just the fact I've been using PLD only to try and prepare for Gunbreaker. Or my depression is kicking in and making things more boring than they are. Who knows lol. God I wish Gunbreaker had been a DPS ; ;

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Well that depend a lot on level then:

- Below lvl 50 OT as a PAL is boring (you have one combo so you'll like be spamming two buttons)
- During lvl 50/60 it gets better 'cause you get access to your DPS skills and combos (Spirit Within, Circle of Scorn, Goring Blade, Royal Authorithy)
- From lvl 60/70 it gets DEFINELY better as you'll complete your offensive toolkit (Requiescat, Holy Spirits)

I find it actually quite fun to play when you hit 60+, you will probably still find the rotations quite easy compared to a DPS (must be because you are supposed to be quite busy in the tanking as well such as positioning, packing, mitigating and such).

I advise you to MT or stick in 4-man parties until lvl 60; some player won't let/could bother you MTing an 8 man raid but since your only combo in a leveled 50 is RoH you could gently ask if you should just watch the boss (or riot-blade spam maybe?).

WAR/DRK WILL have their DPS combos at 50 and there's no point in avoid MT at THAT point for you (usually other pulls 'cause PAL loose more DPS/time in building aggro but that's not true until late game).

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Originally Posted by Awful

I'm totally in agreement with you I feel like extending that into tank gameplay alone could be one hell of a boon I'd welcome it honestly, as for Pomanders yeah it was mostly just an idea it's not the best but you adding in cards makes it way more diverse. And apologies you're right it doesn't change what active mitigation is or it to be "active" within the parameters of being time-deployed and separable, I just wish XIV had more diverseness within the tanks, which might change in 5.0 (hopefully).

I like how Blood DKs are in WoW (I'm playing one as well Prot War was my 2nd choice alongside DH even if they fell off, but I digress) as they fit their fantasy role as well as having their OH CRAP buttons such as Bonestorm for smoothing out damage and healing on AoE pulls, Vampiric Blood for strong burst healing, Ice Bound Fort, Anti-Magic Shield and Eternal Rune weapon. They fit their own class fantasy as well as being a very strong Mythic+ tank which is what I wish DRK was but I know they're 2 different games, DRK just doesn't have the self healing and is more of a hand cramp to play, I hope 5.0 we get more of WAR being a strong mitigator while DPSing, PLD being a utility tank for the party and itself and I have no idea what GUN will be.

Bottom line is if there was a Mythic+ system I'd want it fleshed out like you described as well as having diversified tanks with their own strong but different ways to mitigate, whether it be self heals, strong mitigation, or strong utility such as debuffing as well I find that WoW has quite diverse tanking combined with great class fantasy, now I don't want copies of them just those are ideas.

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Haha, yeah, I totally understand wanting that from DRK. and wanting more diverseness in general.

To be honest, whenever this topic comes up, though, I can't help but reminded of the "perception of power".

Take, for instance, any good MOBA character playing to its strengths. Because it's strengths are niche, those times are few, but within them they each fill wicked strong. Now, don't take that as advocating for niches -- I quite nearly hate them in MMOs unless the game as a whole supports that form of diversity, which XIV (like most "endgame"-centric MMOs) doesn't even come close to doing -- but just consider that feeling. I want tanks, and possibly every job in XIV, to feel inordinately strong in the gestalt of their toolkits when played perfectly (not necessarily by any one or few part or parts a person could point at and say that's what makes it strong, but just this whole <job>-ness of it all).

DRK actually has these moments going for it quite well in some respects, if only in trend or readily imaginable prospects. Consider its strength when playing against massive amounts of weak enemies when entering with full MP and Blood and Delirium, Blood Price, and Blood Weapon each at the ready. It doesn't need heals, and it does a ton of damage. Between 100% healing yourself of DA-AD and clobbering enemies with better-than-free DA-Quietus spam, it feels ridiculously strong. The problem is that situation's barriers to entry, along with those like it: it's more clunky (even if not exactly convoluted) than it needs be and the conditions for its occurrence far too rarely available.

In 3.x, these situations weren't quite so obvious, but they were far more frequent. Stun, DA-DD and DA-DP for frequent dodges, Awareness added in early if a crit could get dicey but otherwise holding to avoid anti-synergy and to ensure even more stun spam from parries. Reprisal this, lifesteal from that, kick that in the face, AoE these, cut that to ribbons, plunge to the other side... It felt intense. And it's strange how much the loss of different tiers of mitigation, and perhaps even of that anti-synergy that could still be stacked (if inefficiently) for burst mitigation, diminished that perception when trading it all for extra DA casts. The DA-SE Lifesteal ought to have felt more prominent rather than merely tacked-on, the DA potency bonuses stronger and chunkier, and DA's use more decisive and punctuating, with plenty of other things -- each with their own synergies -- to fill it out. Heavensward DRK's mitigation might not have required much decisive compromise from within its rotations, given the low thresholds for enmity, but it was at least active in the sense that there were dependencies, synergetic and anti-synergetic, and had to be maneuvered thusly for optimization. That should have been deepened. Honestly, I feel like it was ripe to make a better tank than any in WoW, by far. And if the others had followed through on the strengths of that comprehension and polish, it could have had a much more diverse and satisfying tank line-up than WoW's. Though, that's not exactly setting a high bar at this point.

Though I, again, generally hate niche-focused design in MMOs, I actually really like the idea of PLD as the one with the most direct and comprehensive toolkit for indirect output via safeguarding when both personally under fire or protecting another. Concisely, I'd like to see more shield usage. And I mean a lot more shield usage. I'd go so far as to say I'd like to see it able to Shelltron (or, "Guard") as a GCD channel, and for shield and sword skills to only half share a GCD. I like to build jobs from their roots, and the roots of Paladin -- however some may desire to waste them -- is in Gladiator. So I consider: what would make a Gladiator work, even on its own? And the toolkit that would require would be frantic yet paced, fast yet tactical, reckless yet strategic, lead by muscle memory but baiting towards a chosen goal with every step. Those are fine roots on which to build a knight, even if some of the extents of those aspects might be toned down -- being so deep that PLD would otherwise feel like an aRPG crossover compared to its party-mates -- in exchange for deepening the opportunities each in use of sword and shield each in their own right. Add to that some protective magics to extend range and control even further... stewing over it for even some dozen minutes it quickly becomes hard to imagine how the job's gameplay has been left as mediocre as it is.

Warrior proceeds oppositely. Everything about that job should be about power. Sheer, stupid power. But it needs something more from its stances. I dare say it needs to take back granular dynamic percentile buffs, to be applied to actions taken in Defiance and Deliverance alike through Wrath/Abandon generated, with generation based directly on relative potency dealt (albeit with SP still perhaps having a higher modifier and Infuriate still generating 50 gauge, however much potency that might normally be) and fading over time. The more gauge generated in Defiance, the more damage-to-healing and maximum HP one gets. The more one puts out in Deliverance, the more crit chance and crit bonus one gets. The synergy between the two will make-or-break the Warrior. Reduced swap cooldown, if any, with preparation for a massive tank buster often coming down to, say, a Fell Cleave spam to guarantee a fat crit on the next Inner Beast, swapping just in time for Defiance, Infuriate, and a double Inner Beast. Damage to live. Live to damage.

Each tank should feel like a one-man army. If non-tanks feel left out after that, then they too should be made to feel like one in their own way. The key is perception. In fact, it may be that no job unless played by the absolute best of the best could even solo a leveling dungeon at their level, but if in context, playing to their strengths, they feel like they can take on the world, then that's a job well made.

The sad thing is that the answer for why this or that falls short in XIV almost always seems to come back to undermechanics, or even something as base as polling rate or number of floating point units allowable to a single encounter. The above PLD ideas are among the worst hit; to really get the most of a tank with a masterful intercepting/defensive kit, there'd need to be more damage that can't just be redirected to the PLD off enmity-stacking alone. That means AI improvements to allow for AI diversification and in turn diversity of encounters. DPS feeling like one-man-armies, likewise, would likely require some involvement of active dodging, and some small trade away from direct damage dealt by bosses into something more manipulable and recoverable therefrom. Neither will happening any time soon, if ever. And that can't be blamed solely on the devs lack of ambition. The community, too, is far too willing to accept barebone mechanical development space as if it were complete and/or unimprovable. We're very willing to complain about homogenous design, but rarely ever about what it takes to allow for designs which would not homogeneous. At the same time, we so often condemn even slight advantages or disadvantages and often making any concrete requests based on examples already existent in other jobs in the same role (which, naturally, must then proceed towards homogeneity). But neither is such illogical or frivolous; it's vital in the context we have, which is rarely more than 5 relevant fights at a time; out game, or the only parts under real scrutiny, comes down to at most 26 mechanics at a time, very few of which are new, and none of which are or even could be crafted with specific jobs in mind. There's a negative feedback cycle and an ever-narrowing flow by least resistance here, and it'd take vast and active measures to start breaking out of either.