Npc Party Discussion

Hello, everyone, so whats that about. Well since the last info update we will be able to party up with same Npc's in the near future. I got my concerns because of it. The reason for it, the idea isn't new, don't now how many mmo Games had that feature but I played one of them. Guild Wars 1 was one of them and it didn't end well. From what i remember after that implant the pve part of the game was practically dead after 2 month it was a mmo solo game play.



I'm curious if I'm the only one having doubts about this.

If the game will become a "solo experience" then it just means that the brunt of the players didn't care about the MMO experience in the first place. They were just forced into it by design.

In other words, you as a multiplayer lover was able to play this game only because there were people that liked the story/gameplay enough so as to do something they disliked in the first place.


Trust system does not replace multiplayer. It gives option of avoiding it for those that don't want it. Those that want multiplayer will still have access to it and as a result of the solo-lovers using Trusts, the people you end up queueing with are more likely to be of the responsive sort. After all, right now it feels like doing dungeons with bots more often than not. Many people are just bad (like bots) and don't even say a thing when asked (like bots). Sometimes they'll tell you that you sucked at the end of the dungeon or something...


In other words, replacing multiplayer in an MMO game is bad. But giving a solo option alongside multiplayer is not. Thinking otherwise is egoistical because it implies that others need to participate in content they don't want just so that you can have fun at their expense.

PS: Trust system will be available only for the main scenario quest dungeons, it seems. And only those of the expansion. It won't hurt anything remotely "end-game" at all.

I'm looking forward to the Trust System.

Firstly, the MSQ as it is currently is mostly a solo experience with matchmaking lobby thrown in from time to time. During the MSQ and even afterwards, most players spend most of their time in the major cities/hubs and in instanced content(duty finder).

To encourage player interaction/socialization, the MSQ design has to change and duty finder...well LFG/party finder features seem to diminish the socialization aspect of all the popular MMOs over the years. In old school MMOs, you had to manually find yourself a party,travel to the dungeon/raid location etc.

Will more open world group content and less duty finder change this?

I don't know but I hope so.

However, putting aside nostalgia and wishful thinking, as someone who mostly PUGs MSQ/casual combat content,I'm looking forward to the Trust System.

It will mean for example, for new dungeons, I can learn fight mechanics at my own pace and not worry about being a burden to the party due to slow reflexes and not understanding mechanics quickly enough. No fear of getting chewed out by party members either.

As a healer main and also someone learning to tank, that would relieve some of the anxiety.

Another benefit that I foresee is that, we'll have to pay more attention to mechanics or end up with repeated failure. The latter is great for learning.

With our current system, for older content,players are overgeared and can ignore some,if not all mechanics. This results in lots of players not actually learning the mechanics of such fights.

Also my understanding is that the Trust System will not be available for more challenging content like Extreme Trials and Savage.

My main concern, is how 'intelligent' will the AI of the Trust System be?

If they end up having the wonky AI of Adventurer Squadron...hell no please!

But the point still stands if the so called Bot/bad players are playing worse than the NPC, why bother to take real players along. You now what i mean. For the time beeing at least they limited it for Specific Content, but like in other Games it wont stay like this.

Old dungeon or MQ Story dungeons were even the Partyfinder takes Ages to fill up. I can see the benefit of it.
So basically im not against it, i just had bad expierince with systems like that.

PS; Whats the Point of an MMO if u can bypass the contant playing solo. Maybe i got this one wrong but if someone doesnt wont to participate in content they dont wont or need, than why bother playing it.

Well if they would enable it everywhere i guess i would quite.

So for the time beeing its true "It won't hurt end-game". But player that are get used to play with npc may tend to play worse than before and ignor any good will and explanation to gameplay at raids or dungeons. Following by answers like "why do i care i did it with npcs" ^^

1) No amount of playing with other players will help determined bads.

2) Dungeons don't really teach players much besides AoE rotations (which generally aren't used in most "end-game" content) and some boss mechanics that may or may not be recycled later on. However, in a full player party, some mechanics are associated to a specific role... so while all players get the opportunity to see the mechanic, the other roles still might miss it completely or not understand how the mechanic actually works. Something I've noticed about Squadron missions currently in the game... I get targeted by every mechanic, so I have to deal with all of them... as long as they aren't skipped. The only mechanic that I can think of off the top of my head that is skipped in Squadron Command Missions are the chains during the final boss in the Vault though. It seemingly needs at least two players to tether.

3) Despite adding a new tank and potentially a new healer in ShB, IMO dps queue times are still probably going to be the worst... This is seems like a well needed band-aid for MSQ for those jobs. For those, "I only have a few hours to play during off peak time" players... nothing like spending 45 min of that in a queue for dungeon that is gating further progress in MSQ.

4) More details still to come! Please be patient before losing your mind about the sky falling on Eorzea... IMO this will only be a MSQ thing to expedite players journey through the story. I DO NOT anticipate Trusts being available for any "end-game" activities, f.e. Roulettes, Raids, Trials, Eureka 5.0, PotD 5.0, etc.

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Originally Posted by Shinzo

But the point still stands if the so called Bot/bad players are playing worse than the NPC, why bother to take real players along.

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Exactly. That's the point of solo. Why play with others if you're going to get angry instead of having fun?! Game is meant to be fun. If the multiplayer doesn't offer fun, it's better to play solo. You can only blame toxic players (because playing sub-par USUALLY is a toxic behavior, aka. someone that just doesn't try to get better).

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Originally Posted by Shinzo

So basically im not against it, i just had bad expierince with systems like that.

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It's not that the system is bad, it's that the game doesn't promote the multiplayer and the community doesn't make it fun. If playing multiplayer was more fun, the solo options would barely be used. Why do you think that FPS's have such thriving populations?! Because being bad in multiplayer FPS means you're not going to play, ending up dead all the time. So you get better or...quit. Leaving only the people that are more fun to play with and against.

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Originally Posted by Shinzo

PS; Whats the Point of an MMO if u can bypass the contant playing solo.

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The point is the exact same as if when you cannot bypass it. MMO stands for "massive multiplayer online", not for "massive multiplayer only". That means that the game is played on an outside server and there are many people you can interact with, but don't have to. Just by logging into the game you already participate in the MMO part of the genre, because you become part of the world that other players can try to interact with, can see.

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Originally Posted by Shinzo

Maybe i got this one wrong but if someone doesnt wont to participate in content they dont wont or need, than why bother playing it.

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I'll ask you and those similar to you a question.

Do you like this game?!

Yes?!

Then stop asking this stupid question.

If people that care more about the story than multiplayer would all leave, this game would go under...or into free to play model with heavy item mall at least. Just like most other MMO's. Those players that want to play solo are also paying for the servers. They will enjoy the game more if they will be able to play it solo, so they'll keep on playing the game for longer. And sometimes they may actually play with FRIENDS, people that they do know.

If someone does not enjoy something in a game but enjoys something else, making them able to avoid that thing they don't like is good. Unless it is at the expense of other players. But this is not. Your logic is simply flawed. Whether there is 2mln tanks, 2mln healers and 4mln DPS that play with others or 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS that do it with 2mln tanks, 2mln healers and 4mln DPS playing solo...it doesn't matter. If you want to play online with other people, there will still be people to play with online. If you'll start to actually recognize those people due to a limited pool of them (god forbid you actually come across someone more than once!...), you'll start to respect them more and be respected by them more...because you won't be "someone I'll never see again" anymore. And those solo players will keep on paying for the games upkeep just like you.

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Originally Posted by Shinzo

So for the time beeing its true "It won't hurt end-game". But player that are get used to play with npc may tend to play worse than before and ignor any good will and explanation to gameplay at raids or dungeons. Following by answers like "why do i care i did it with npcs" ^^

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This is the exact opposite of reality. NPC's won't be overpowered for the dungeon and winning or losing will be ENTIRELY dependent on the single player. These NPC's won't carry anyone unlike other players can do. This will be the first content that will actually promote personal skill increase and responsibility, unlike it is now, where "If we finished it, who cares that I attacked mobs one by one!" or "If we finished it, who cares that I watched Netflix half the time while spamming Medica!".

In my personal experience I like playing mmorpg even if I spent most of it alone because the people make good backdrops lol (outside of raids I pretty much played WoW exclusively solo, even back when it was harder). FFXI didn't give you an option though lol, which was cool some days and very stressful other days (shouting for a few hours to find that you have to go now and spent all day doing nothing). I was absolutely fine with the GW NPC party system, also I would disagree that it died within a few months or that they didn't intend the solo content that way.

That said while I think it might lower the pool I think it will maybe only lower it by like a minute in wait time, so those who still want to play social can do so (I like DF social, easy to set up lol, I don't like waiting for PF haha). Also I imagine if you have a good group of friends you're going to be significantly faster in run times than an npc group.

I'm fine with this to a degree.

Letting people progress through the msq without suffering 30min + queue times if playing a dps is fine.

However, will this really help queue times? Sure a DPS can go in. But theoretically I could get tired of dps in duty finder who don't aoe for trash pulls and start tanking for TRUST partise instead, removing a tank from that pool. I think one way to mitigate this is to not allow TRUST parties for roulettes. You want daily roulette bonuses, you group with a party. Honestly with the TRUST system only applying to ShB duties anyway it would only be able to apply to expert/lvl 80 roulettes anyway. But only allowing you to queue for specific duties and not for roulettes with them would be one way to mitigate this.

My other potential concern is, what all can you use them in? Dungeons and normal mode trials probably aren't a big deal. But if they let you do normal/alliance raids with them, you could go in with no loot competition and no queue, potentially gutting parties with other players. But this is more of a slippery slope concern and so far as I know only ShB dungeons are affected, and I'm fine with that.

There's also a balance to strike. The npcs should be competent, but IMO not better than what players can do. Make them better than someone that doesn't aoe big trash pulls or black mages that just spam fire III/blizzard III etc, but not as good as players who have a solid understanding of their job.

I'm fine with it in principle.

I am worried that it's going to mean Squadrons end up on the same scrapheap as the Chocobo Companion.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I'm fine with this to a degree.

Letting people progress through the msq without suffering 30min + queue times if playing a dps is fine.

However, will this really help queue times? Sure a DPS can go in. But theoretically I could get tired of dps in duty finder who don't aoe for trash pulls and start tanking for TRUST partise instead, removing a tank from that pool. I think one way to mitigate this is to not allow TRUST parties for roulettes. You want daily roulette bonuses, you group with a party. Honestly with the TRUST system only applying to ShB duties anyway it would only be able to apply to expert/lvl 80 roulettes anyway. But only allowing you to queue for specific duties and not for roulettes with them would be one way to mitigate this.

My other potential concern is, what all can you use them in? Dungeons and normal mode trials probably aren't a big deal. But if they let you do normal/alliance raids with them, you could go in with no loot competition and no queue, potentially gutting parties with other players. But this is more of a slippery slope concern and so far as I know only ShB dungeons are affected, and I'm fine with that.

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I feel it'll be a sort of extension of the squadron system with friendship meters, I doubt they'll let you go into any roulette and I agree with your concern. One thing they might be able to do is if you queue for roulette with the trust system you have to wait and see if the system will have enough people first. So like you wait 10-15 minutes to see if real players want to play, if none then you go with the trust.

Because I think it'll be an extension of squadron like system I doubt they'll allow alliance content either.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I am worried that it's going to mean Squadrons end up on the same scrapheap as the Chocobo Companion.

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Also worried.. I really hope SE can put all our companions into logical area of the game that they flow together. It reminds me of other systems that seem duplicated with minor variations lol. My companion should be able to work in my squadron, perhaps trust companions are on timers but upgraded squadron members - and you can use them like charging up a summon in FFX and then bringing out the big guns (Thancred tank > normal squadron tank).

It's for future insurance (a failsafe so mandatory dungeons can still be done without relying on other people queueing, important because almost the entire game is locked behind mandatory story dungeons), and to indirectly lower queue times when they will be bad at the beginning of the expansion since people could just jump in with their NPCs or whatever. IIRC you can do the story dungeons with them. Add an extra incentive to play in a group and there we go.

I don't expect this to change much in player skill.. I've seen some questionable stuff even with the mandatory forced group content right now and I doubt just because they can solo it's going to do anything. I mean they give you an echo buff if you keep dying in solo instances, I think that's actually more harmful than a solo option in regards to skill level of players.

Some players that have anxiety about healing or tanking could jump in with npcs and try it out in an actual current dungeon. Seems alright to me.

I'm wondering, mostly because I haven't read anything too in depth about it, if it'll be possible to mix it up, say, 2 players 2 trust NPCs. That'd go a long way for some who have one or two friends and don't want to work with a random on a run for whatever reason.

Also, I don't mind doing this stuff with me and just Trust NPCs and in some instances may actually prefer it, especially if it's decently challenged and I'm only wasting my time as I figure stuff out with many deaths. It may even make me more confident to run stuff with others (as my squadron has when I've decided I felt like being a tank or healer, even if they're overpowered and not really like a party of real life people - I particularly notice this in terms of healing. Have ended up using the squadron as cheap XP and training wheels in this regard).

EDIT: just read the post above mine, and concur completely.

Aye, I don't see an issue with the trust system if it's simply regarding story dungeons. I remember when I was new to this game, so very long ago. And one thing that put me off was the horrendous queue times. Now it's not so bad, but I can see why some folk just want to blitz through it by themselves. SWTOR has something similar - you could solo the story with a companion bot.

If anything perhaps this would make people feel more like the warrior of light since it's just you.

The only thing I want from the trust system is if I can take my Squadron members into more dungeons or allow as a substitute.

More Squadron intengration please SE.

I just hope the AI for the npcs will be better than the current squadron. It's not going to help newer players (and I just don't enjoy it) if we have to micromanage the npcs during the fights.

Im looking forward to it, especially because MSQ. I dont mind the system, its not gonna replace anything.

It will be a little better than squadrons. However the difference will most likely be 15 min with players and 30 minute run with trusts.

I love playing with others however i prefer it to be on my terms not forced. The story should be a single player experience but outside that I'm all for team play

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Originally Posted by Dustytome

I just hope the AI for the npcs will be better than the current squadron. It's not going to help newer players (and I just don't enjoy it) if we have to micromanage the npcs during the fights.

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The allies on the final story dungeon right now are probably a test run of the trusts. That's why the limit break at the end is cast by random person each time too.

That means that the trust system allies will actually be custom programmed for the specific dungeon doing all the mechanics properly based on their job. Their stats however are probably going to be akin to a min-level gear or such, so if you think you can take it easy as a DPS...you'll be sorely mistaken with the bosses overwhelming the party. It may actually be a bit easier as healer as the trusts are likely to actually avoid all avoidable attacks...unless YOU lure it on them.

I don't get why people think the npcs in Ghymlit are testing the trust system? Aren't they all heavily scripted for specific things? Sure a random npc gets to do the limit break but the script is the same, it just does it with a different person using a random number generator. Do any of the npcs actually do anything dynamic?

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I don't get why people think the npcs in Ghymlit are testing the trust system? Aren't they all heavily scripted for specific things? Sure a random npc gets to do the limit break but the script is the same, it just does it with a different person using a random number generator. Do any of the npcs actually do anything dynamic?

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Um...That's exactly what trust system is going to be probably...It's not squadron.

They likely will be hand-scripted for every dungeon so they will do the same thing each and every time, leaving the player to be the deciding factor between winning or losing. Their variety will be limited to positioning based on the mobs location and the AoE used as well as for healers when to heal or when to attack (since NPC's actually do both, yeah).

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Um...That's exactly what trust system is going to be probably...It's not squadron.

They likely will be hand-scripted for every dungeon so they will do the same thing each and every time, leaving the player to be the deciding factor between winning or losing. Their variety will be limited to positioning based on the mobs location and the AoE used as well as for healers when to heal or when to attack (since NPC's actually do both, yeah).

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Not much different than players then lol all blms have same rotation all nin,sam do as well there honestly is no dynamic even with real ppl because we all have no choice but to use the same rotation for the job 2 work.

Real people mess up their rotations a lot, are indecisive, often lack teamwork and do a lot of unnecessary things (like moving away from each other when there's no reason for that). Ranged people that get up close to the boss when they have tons of point-blank AoE's is one example.

Humans make decisions, sometimes they make mistakes. There are DPS that go for greed and end up eating an AoE (even if they didn't want to), there are DPS that will constantly move even if they have cast times, thus wasting tons of time.

As example, as a White Mage I am prone to eating an AoE or two when spamming Holy if I know I will survive it. If I know the tank WILL hold aggro, I have no reason not to since I can dodge any attack that would kill me and heal before next battle. If the boss doesn't have AoE's often, I won't bother capping the parties health with Medica either if I have Medica II up. If the damage from the AoE was small, I'll just leave it to natural regeneration altogether. Scripted healers will probably not do any of that.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Real people mess up their rotations a lot, are indecisive, often lack teamwork and do a lot of unnecessary things (like moving away from each other when there's no reason for that). Ranged people that get up close to the boss when they have tons of point-blank AoE's is one example.

Humans make decisions, sometimes they make mistakes. There are DPS that go for greed and end up eating an AoE (even if they didn't want to), there are DPS that will constantly move even if they have cast times, thus wasting tons of time.

As example, as a White Mage I am prone to eating an AoE or two when spamming Holy if I know I will survive it. If I know the tank WILL hold aggro, I have no reason not to since I can dodge any attack that would kill me and heal before next battle. If the boss doesn't have AoE's often, I won't bother capping the parties health with Medica either if I have Medica II up. If the damage from the AoE was small, I'll just leave it to natural regeneration altogether. Scripted healers will probably not do any of that.

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Well then i guess the npcs will be better than real ppl in that case :p

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Well then i guess the npcs will be better than real ppl in that case :p

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They will probably be the "middle ground". They won't be making any large errors, but they won't be using high-efficiency tactics either. Their stats are also prone to be lower than players soon after release. They will be better than the bad players by a mile...but they won't offer a smooth and fast run like good players would.

Well, all of this is going on the assumption that they WILL be scripted like that. I cannot see this succeeding in any way, shape or form if they will be glorified squadrons with their artificial stupidity. But I honestly doubt this.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

They will probably be the "middle ground". They won't be making any large errors, but they won't be using high-efficiency tactics either. Their stats are also prone to be lower than players soon after release. They will be better than the bad players by a mile...but they won't offer a smooth and fast run like good players would.

Well, all of this is going on the assumption that they WILL be scripted like that. I cannot see this succeeding in any way, shape or form if they will be glorified squadrons with their artificial stupidity. But I honestly doubt this.

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Actually trust can know high end tactics ffxi is proof of that... in fact they probably know more than real ppl

Maybe it's just me but nothing in Ghylit feels any more advanced than npcs in solo instances we've already fought alongside. So a NPC using a limit break, Lyse does the same thing 4.1's instanced fight against Lakshmi. We see a few npcs fighting random enemies, again that's in plenty of instance fights, I just don't see anything in Ghimlyt that makes me think 'oh I haven't seen a NPC do that before' except for the fact it's one of three or so random ncps doing the attack at the end which, isn't really that big of a deal. So I just don't get what's being 'tested' here unless it's the random number genrator?

Trust is only for shadowbringers (leveling?) dungeons, so there is still the daily leveling/80/expert roulettes, which will group you with other people. You only go through each dungeon once while leveling unless you're farming for gear (which won't take long either for leveling dungeons) or other drops. Then there are the trials and raids which won't have trust. So the multiplayer aspect of the game will still be there.

I just hope that more NPC party content eventually paves the way to use our squad in more stuff too.

I'd love to be able to use a squad member in place of my chocobo or something, similar to how in WoW's Warlords of Draenor you could get your garrison NPCs to follow you around the overworld and fight with you. Glamming my squad is no fun if nobody else can see my fab squad members.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Actually trust can know high end tactics ffxi is proof of that... in fact they probably know more than real ppl

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I know they CAN know high-end tactics. But Yoshida said that running the dungeons with real people will still be better. So it's a matter of them not wanting them to use high-end tactics. That's pretty reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Maybe it's just me but nothing in Ghylit feels any more advanced than npcs in solo instances we've already fought alongside.

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You do realize I hope that all those solo instances have come with or after Stormblood, right?! They had a full road map as soon as 4.1 so they naturally tested Trust system all the way from there.

They dodging, participating in group-up and spread-out mechanics properly etc. is very different from how NPC's before that worked. They actually begun dodging AoE's rather than getting huge health pool to compensate for getting hit by every darn attack in existence.

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Originally Posted by Akonyl

I just hope that more NPC party content eventually paves the way to use our squad in more stuff too.

I'd love to be able to use a squad member in place of my chocobo or something, similar to how in WoW's Warlords of Draenor you could get your garrison NPCs to follow you around the overworld and fight with you. Glamming my squad is no fun if nobody else can see my fab squad members.

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I think there's a chance for getting more companions eventually? Not sure if it's always been like this, but the Lodestone use companion in plural when listing your chocobo companion; so who knows?