YoRHa: Dark Apocalypse (Pre-5.1 Speculation)

To prevent knee-jerk reactions, knee-jerk counterpoints, and new information from either clogging up or getting lost in other threads, now may be the right time to give it its own thread.

First things first, my knee-jerk reaction, and a new interview snip.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I'm just trusting in the system this time around. We had all these same doubts and debates with Ivalice and (yeah, Matsuno-san broke a few vases they're still sweeping up, but) everyone worked hard to fit it into the world and make it something new and it was totally worth it and I'm sure they can do that again.

What's Yoko Taro's mantra? "Tell Square Enix to give me money, and I will do it for you."

He seems perfectly capable of manifesting his insanity within the confines of, "Hydaelyn is isolated; your ideas will be manifested anew within this world to fit this world. Other than that, do whatever you want and don't bruise the world lore too badly." Hell, what if he just turns following those rules into part of the craziness?

I'm usually the strictest one in the room but...

Worst case scenario, one isolated raid questline is a mess and we still got to play an MMO raid randomly custom-designed by Yoko Taro and Yosuke Saito.

Strap me in.

---

Quote:

---

Will the developer of the Nier series, Platinum Games, participate in developing the new alliance raid?
They'll be sharing assets with us, so in that sense, yes. But just like with Return to Ivalice, the FFXIV team will create the boss battles. Platinum Games won't be involved in actual development.

As a fellow creator, what do you think of Yoko Taro?

My first impression is that he's incredibly smart. His speech feels calculated, in a different way from myself. I never compared us, but if I had to say, it's like he tries to leave some kind of "scars" on you. He wants his creations to leave some kind of mark on the player or reader, any mark at all. I don't know if I can go as far to say as that's the purpose of his work, but at any rate, I strongly sense that power from him. Anyway, he's interesting. He's one of the few people that I can eat with and get excited over game talk with.

There are many different reactions to YoRHa, ranging from welcoming to rejecting. Did you foresee this response?

I think that as we reveal more information about Shadowbringers, YoRHa will begin to make more sense. At any rate, both Saito-san and Yoko-san are being careful to make sure it blends in with FFXIV. They don't want the FFXIV community to reject it, and of course they want to leave something with you. The FFXIV team feels the same way--we don't want to impose too much on the Nier community. Both sides of the collaboration want to make something that both communities will enjoy. We'll integrate that into the gameplay experience and create something unpredictable, so please look forward to it.

When did you start working with Saito-san?

Game development-wise, after Dragon Quest X.

Saito-san is a producer. What kind of involvement does he have with this project?

He's probably the top producer in Square Enix. Neither of us really think of each other as producers, and Saito-san probably doesn't think of himself as a producer either. He just wants to do fun things, and "producer" is simply his job classification. Saito-san can do game design too, so he has a lot to offer, and he excels at thinking about things. He's open-minded, and if the director (not limited to Yoko-san) wants to do something, he lets them do it. It was the same with Dragon Quest X. The producer should have 100% faith in the director and gather people to create what the director wants, while convincing the people who are against it. If both sides aren't happy, then they should separate. That's how much he puts stock in people. For this project too, we didn't talk about duties at all, and simply agreed that it'd be interesting to do something like this.

Would you say there's a special connection between you?

I don't know if it's "special", but we're both so busy that we only get 1-2 chances a year to drink together, and now we'll have to see each other for work, so I'm glad we'll have more opportunities to drink together.

During the video message, Yoko-san said that the story wasn't done at all, but what is the real development status?

At the very least, I hear that Yoko-san has a clear idea in his head of what he wants to do. Next is how we're going to introduce it into FFXIV's lore. It'll be a back and forth between us until we reach a conclusion.

What did you think when they brought up the idea?

"Oh, that makes sense." We could certainly make something really interesting. I don't want to say any more for now, since I want to tell the story when the three of us are together.

Matsuno-san tweeted that he was passing the baton to Yoko-san, but when I completed the Return to Ivalice series, it really didn't feel like it was over. Are you considering a continuation?

*laughs* The great thing about Matsuno-san's works is that they don't feel complete on their own. His game design is all about creating the presence of the history and characters. The story that he wrote for us encroaches on Eorzea's history and lore in a good way, and it's possible that it'll get involved again and something new will come out of it. I didn't request anything from him; he wrote the new text himself and it was implemented upon approval. I think it'd be interesting to collaborate again in a different way if we get the opportunity. After all, I'm a Matsuno believer *laughs* But Return to Ivalice really was great. I think there are people who didn't like it, but I'm glad that the people who played FFT were happy with the ending.

---

I'd imagine YoRHa fitting in with perhaps early Allagan tech

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

I'd imagine YoRHa fitting in with perhaps early Allagan tech

---

To be fair, even in the hypothetical situation YoRHA couldn't be made to fit with anything in the entire game, they'd probably still be linked to Allagans.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwT1puyXcAA_Pur.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chewy2nd

I'd imagine YoRHa fitting in with perhaps early Allagan tech

---

I imagine they'd have to be very late Allagan tech, if they're related to Allag at all. We've seen pretty much everything Allag has to offer, from chimeric monstrosities to clockwork constructs, but no sapient machina like the YoRHa units...

If we assume Azys Lla is the "glorious museum from the end of Allag," at any rate. They're still pretty early in the planning stages, though, and it won't hit until 5.1, so there's plenty of time to work the kinks out.

I honestly will like to see the story focus on a time long forgotten when Magic was not something possible for civilizations yet.

It would be interesting to explore a forgotten civilization from a era when the only thing people can depend on is Technology due to no abilities to use Magic yet.

The fact Yoshi said that YoRHa will start to make sense as we go foward with Shadowbringers info just kinda makes me not really put much faith in it being an Allag thing.
If it was just Allagan shenanigans it would make as much sense as it could right now y'know.

or maybe i'm just really freackin tired of Allag...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

I imagine they'd have to be very late Allagan tech, if they're related to Allag at all. We've seen pretty much everything Allag has to offer, from chimeric monstrosities to clockwork constructs, but no sapient machina like the YoRHa units...

---

The closest might be the "evocation matrix" we see in the Lv70 summoner quest - an Allagan node supercomputer that can create egi of human form. Suppose they could build a smaller version, able to create a single egi around rather than outside itself...?

I don't know if egi are supposed to be solid or not, but if not then it could be augmented with a human-shaped frame around the "summoner node". Or skip the whole egi thing and implant something of similar intelligence into one of the manikins that people were talking about elsewhere.



The other AI-or-something-like-it device we've seen is "Gillie", the guidance mode from Azys Lla. Overall I got the impression that she might just be the Allagan equivalent of Siri, and not a true intelligence, but on my second playthrough I found something curious that seems to contradict it.

Y'shtola remarks at one point: "That node is not what it seems. From amidst the metal, I sense the gaze of a living being. Have care around it."

It never becomes relevant in the end. Gillie guides us to the Flagship, shuts down without anything remarkable happening, and gets revived as a minion if you do the Fractal Continuum.

So... why point it out in the first place?

How do you think we'll be introduced to the Neir side of things? I read that Q&A that came after the keynote and they said they'd make sure to mesh it into our world as good as you can with Neir. Normally a reporter from one of the three city states tends to flag us down but with Neir we could end up getting a Pod or one of the Operators or run into a 9S.

Personally I think it will have less to do with Allag and much more to do with Garlemald. Reading up on what things like the Hypertuned are (lab babies grown for the purposes of acting as "energy containers") and some of the other stuff going on in Castrum Abania and the Resonance research... yikes. Get a few amoral scientists together and the idea of them trying to figure out crazy things like sentient robots in some corner of Ilsabard while being funded by the Garlean Government sounds pretty plausible all things considered. We know they're messing with cloning already...

How could YoRHa/Nier sci-fi Tech fit in Hydaelyn's lore? The Allagan and the non-allagan alternatives.

First we gotta answer:
When did the fragmentation of the source happend?

I have no idea, but if it was before "life" existed in Hydaelyn as a planet, which is kinda a dark soulish idea of hydaelyn being all "perfectly balanced" in the aetherial sea where "nothing could possibly change" due to all being in it's perfect "rest position" so to speak. (A no, no aether/quatum tunneling).
If this is the case, then maybe there are versions of Hydaelyn where the Allagans never even or developed in the way we know they did in our Hydaelyn. Maybe they were replaced by other nations, groups... Maybe the developed for another 4 thousand years and never faced calamity or non strong enough to topple them.

We also know in our version of Hydaelyn or the universe we are in, there are other planets with other life forms (dragons and a bunch smart enough to create a near perfect self sufficient cybernetic AI super weapon... That for some reason DIDN'T DESTROYED US, like, evaporate us from existence... ANYWAY) i think we are starting to have problems with what Hydaelyn actually is. The Planet, The Crystal (metaverse?), The Shard (parallel realities?) and the universe itself. Like. We know of the Void and the shard of the derplander, and for one we have absolutely no reason to assume they followed our own developings, while the other seems pretty pretty prettyyyy close to our, these reflections are not perfect...

With this, i think YoRHa can either:

-A replacement of Allags in another Reflection: Pretty bad and lazy if you ask me.
-Allagans of another reflection that didn't fell to calamities but are now in the brink of being tipped towards darkness.
-Non allagan super civ ruins of a world that succumbed or is about to, to either dark or light. Maybe we will explore a Hydaelyn way in the past or the future, at a more realistic Cosmological Evolutionary scale.
-Non allagan super civ ruins, this time arround, is not from a reflection but in ours, the core.

Honestly at this point im not sure if we are traveling in time or dimensions. Like are we visiting other reflections (Aka: we are going to save minfilia in the shard of the derplander) or we are traveling in time? Or both? Honestly this is a hella mess... Hopefully it will be properly explained...

Maybe YoRHa is in the planet Omega was created. Using Omega as a mid point transition between the levels of high tech from Nier and the base blueprint that upstarted the Allagans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

the shard of the derplander

---

On a technicality, the Warrior of Darkness should not be referred to as the Derplander (ie. the "generic WoL"). They look the same, but it's not actually the same character.

The Derplander (my goodness I hate using that term) is the guy that appears consistently in trailers and promotional art, essentially as a very high-def "insert your character here" sign. In story terms, he is the player character, regardless of what you made your character look like.

The Warrior of Darkness - or Arbert, to use his actual name - is not you, and he's not the generic WoL. He's a separate character, and if there was a 'trailer version' of our fight against the Warriors, you would see both of them there fighting each other. And yet it's only "coincidence" that they resemble each other, because Arbert is a fixed character design that doesn't change to mirror ours.

So essentially you're describing the Warriors' home shard as "the shard of the [WoL]", which of course is not correct!

Rightfully it is the First Shard, or simply "the First".

I'm going to assume that it'll be a lot like Return to Ivalice and revolve around a number of references from multiple games rather than solely Nier: Automata. Return to Ivalice was mostly focused on Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XII yet it also had a handful of references to Vagrant Story as well. I thoroughly enjoyed Nier: Automata and the questions it raised in regards to consciousness and morality. The sort of themes explored within that game would lend themselves very well to FFXIV and I don't doubt that the crossover will fit just as smoothly as Return to Ivalice did. It's a major selling point for Shadowbringers for me, at least - and most people I've spoken with are equally as enthusiastic.

Would be nice to see it connected to one of the Era we didn't see yet in game.

I wonder... are there any calamities that we don't know much about still? Because if they work in the lore of both Nier games and not just Automata, they could potentially tie in something there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I wonder... are there any calamities that we don't know much about still? Because if they work in the lore of both Nier games and not just Automata, they could potentially tie in something there.

---

Maybe a era before this whole Calamity cycle began?

If there is one thing about anime theme plots I learned is that there is always something much much farther in history that have been completely forgotten to the point people do not even believe that "era" existed.

Heck what if the planet once never had Hydaelyn nor Zodiark and was just a normal planet that had a civilization the depended on technology alone but one day someone or something use a advanace technology that brought them here and thus created the FF14 world we know today.

If there is one quote from Guild Wars 2 that I always follow it is "History never lies but Historians do."

I don't think we really know much about the eras where a Calamity happened due to too much tech, or too much religion. Like many of the eras before the Allagans seem to not have many surviving records. I mean for something to survive a huge fire, earthquake, ice age, windstorms and a flood would have to had crazy wards, buried deeply or have a lot of fail safes or floating in the sky.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Maybe a era before this whole Calamity cycle began?

If there is one thing about anime theme plots I learned is that there is always something much much farther in history that have been completely forgotten to the point people do not even believe that "era" existed.

Heck what if the planet once never had Hydaelyn nor Zodiark and was just a normal planet that had a civilization the depended on technology alone but one day someone or something use a advanace technology that brought them here and thus created the FF14 world we know today.

If there is one quote from Guild Wars 2 that I always follow it is "History never lies but Historians do."

---

Maybe, though I don't expect us to see anything from before the first astra/umbral eras.

But there were two apocalypses of sorts in Nier, one between Drakengard and Nier, and another between Nier and Automata, so I wouldn't be surprised if we saw those weaved into calamity stories somehow.

With people talking about the possibility of other NieR and Drakengard things to be borrowed ... would anyone else love to see a Final Fantasy XIV incarnation of Angelus? I would not be a stretch at all for a dragon like her to exist here. Now I'm just drowning in hopeful possibilities. Pod minion? Pod mount? Moose mount!? All I know is that if there's not some way to get Grimoire Weiss / Noir as SCH / SMN weapons, I'll be (the wrong kind of) heartbroken.

Ooh, but what about the good kind of heartbroken? I think a new incarnation of Devola and Popola could rek me all over again.

(And how many people would wear Zero's face flower? We already have them bears.)

I never played Drakengard but I'd love some original Nier stuff, even if it was just the occasional character outfit as a gear set and boss fight tossed in.

I wonder if they would mix locations too? Like how the lighthouse also had the clockwork city, and the ancient ivalice city under Dalmasca. Like if we had a city ruins stage that descended into the weapon factory from Nier. Makes me wonder what the three raid dungeons will be.

As far as another possibility to explain the Tech level for YoRHa-style androids, there is another far off star with the technology to build incredibly powerful machines like Omega. They could hypothetically come from that star somehow. It'd be a bit of stretch, but I don't think there is going to be an easy explanation for this one.

Would fit in with the whole more aliens/rift in space.

Omg yes to the moose mount and a Pod minion would be cool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Claymore65

As far as another possibility to explain the Tech level for YoRHa-style androids, there is another far off star with the technology to build incredibly powerful machines like Omega. They could hypothetically come from that star somehow. It'd be a bit of stretch, but I don't think there is going to be an easy explanation for this one.

---

YoRHa has become the Machine Lifeforms?!

Ahem.

Stuff we're likely to get from the raids:

• Iconic outfits (2B, 9S, Adam, Eve, maybe A2)
• Minions (Emil, Machine Lifeform, Pod, Wind-up (2B/9S/A2/Adam/Eve/Pascal)

If they do add weapons, they'll probably be purchased for MGP after clearing a certain section of the series, like how the Lexentales' hairstyles can be purchased after clearing the Orbonne Monastery. Prime candidates would include:

• Grimoire Weiss (SCH)
• Grimoire Nero (SMN)
• Virtuous Treaty / Cruel Oath (SAM)
• Beastlord (DRK)

... given my experience with Yoko Taro's games is limited to NieR: Automata, I won't venture further guesses. And feel kind of left out.

Really tho? I'll be happy if I can just get the YoRHa "goggles." The Head Bandage is a poor substitute.

Throwing down my Theories on how this raid will even try to make sense

- In a dark version of when yoshi-P drops in game during the Rising, Yoko Taro and/or Yosuke Saito will drop in and kidnap us and some NPC's to the world of Neir where we have to fight our way through to save said NPC's

-it isn't a "Neir: Automata crossover" even because Yorha is the extremely far future of FF14, Like how return to Ivalice is the past of FF14, Yorha is the future we're somehow flung into and forced to fight through/help "save" (once again because some unlucky bystander NPC and the WoL/D's tendency to save people)
Link to this theory made by me: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ce-raid-theory

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

With people talking about the possibility of other NieR and Drakengard things to be borrowed ... would anyone else love to see a Final Fantasy XIV incarnation of Angelus? I would not be a stretch at all for a dragon like her to exist here. Now I'm just drowning in hopeful possibilities. Pod minion? Pod mount? Moose mount!? All I know is that if there's not some way to get Grimoire Weiss / Noir as SCH / SMN weapons, I'll be (the wrong kind of) heartbroken.

Ooh, but what about the good kind of heartbroken? I think a new incarnation of Devola and Popola could rek me all over again.

(And how many people would wear Zero's face flower? We already have them bears.)

---

I haven't thought about Devola and Popola as possible raid bosses. Now i'm sad...

Angelus is actually a good candidate for a boss and a even better one for a mount...

I think most stuff will be limited to just Nier tho and mostly out of Automata. There's already plenty of cool bosses and characters and things there to make content out of.

But then again this IS Yoko Taro we are talking about. Anything could happen.

you guys are discussing a lot about allag, but considering what we know so far, the civilization closest to the reality of NIER is the same which builded Omega.
But also I think very unlikely something like this can happen. as unlikely as a highly advanced robotic appearing in eorzean... so, it's hard to predict

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrimsonDark

you guys are discussing a lot about allag, but considering what we know so far, the civilization closest to the reality of NIER is the same which builded Omega.
But also I think very unlikely something like this can happen. as unlikely as a highly advanced robotic appearing in eorzean... so, it's hard to predict

---

That's one of my theories.
NIER is gonna be the creators of Omega, thus Omega will be the link between them and Allagans.
But that would mean either traveling to that impossible world... Well, Omega did try to communicate back to his homeworld before he was out of their reach. If omega had super luminous comms, then yeah, there is a chance. If he didn't well, might pass a few thousand years before they know about his last position and direction.

BTW, do eorzeans utilize the concept of Galaxy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

BTW, do eorzeans utilize the concept of Galaxy?

---

i have no idea. final fantasy things are difficult to predict.
because there is no solid logic. Everything is relative.
We can even imagine that we are going to an alternative reality that allag was not extinguished.

but honestly, I hate time travel. because there is no way to avoid creating paradoxes. and most games / movies do not create enough complex script ... and that leaves many loose ends.

The biggest thing I wonder about myself is if anything about the Watchers will make it in. The refrences to them in NieR were just that and they had no bearing on the plot (except for maybe the Logic Virus.) But if anything was gonna stick in our minds beyond just "Hey it NieR!" It would be giant cannibalistic babies.

And connected to that, the Intoners. Thematically they work somewhat like the Primals do which would make them good bosses for us to fight, and fall into our job description as Scions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualblade

The biggest thing I wonder about myself is if anything about the Watchers will make it in.

---

inb4 throughout the raid series friend and foe alike fall victim to an unexplained mindjack-hivemind phenomenon - represented by a red aetherial glow in the eyes - whose connection, if any, to the red-eyed virus, logic virus, Watchers, etc. is left completely unaddressed except for a few potential hints in a 2021 found-footage-format puppet show.

As long as I don't have to deal with lala sized screaming suicide robots or robots that jump to their death because their god is dead while i helplessly watch on I'm fine. Though what would be interesting is if we get any pov changes or if it could happen in XIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrimsonDark

you guys are discussing a lot about allag, but considering what we know so far, the civilization closest to the reality of NIER is the same which builded Omega.
But also I think very unlikely something like this can happen. as unlikely as a highly advanced robotic appearing in eorzean... so, it's hard to predict

---

Something funny I noticed when looking through my minions out of boredom is that the Wind-Up Onion Knight's description says that Allag shifted to using automatons instead of soldiers, and that they were advanced enough for ethical concerns to be raised. Considering they used Omega to build Ultima Weapon, I feel like they could have used him to create androids.

While I do like Nier: Automata, when I heard the announcement I initially recoiled. I've since softened to the idea, but I still feel that it's quite a can of worms to open; it's been clear from the start that FFXIV is a Final Fantasy fanservice vehicle with a lot of nods to the other games in the series, but this seems to be taking the first steps into making it a Square-Enix fanservice vehicle. What's next? Xenogears? Chrono Trigger? Secret of Mana? Ehrgeiz??? No matter how carefully they tailor the crossovers, adding elements from such a variety of games as significant lore objects is likely to get messy after a while!

That's a concern for another day. Time to speculate on how androids and machine life-forms can fit into the lore as we know it! My initial thought would be that the android crew could come from the same "ascendant realm" as the entity the Kuribu automaton was designed after. As this realm seems to be relevant to the upcoming expansion, it seems like a pretty good hook to latch onto. I don't know whether they'll be literal androids, or just humanoids so alien in nature to what we know that they might as well be androids (much like Kuribu herself).

The Machine Lifeforms would be right at home in the Clockwork City of Goug, in my opinion. Perhaps, thousands of years ago, the denizens of Goug opened a gateway to the ascendant realm and launched an invasion. The gate was closed, but the Machine Lifeforms remained, proliferated, and have plagued the ascendant denizens ever since.

The Allagan angle is one I hope will be avoided, since Allagans have been so overdone in this game. That said, the bit about Allagans creating automatons so advanced that ethical concerns were raised (pfff! Allagans and ethics! Wattalaff!) was a good catch, and that would fit the YorHA angle to a tee. The question remains, then, just what have they been DOING all this time? "YorHA" would indicate there's a whole advanced organization of androids, presumably at war with Machine Lifeforms - so where are they, and how have they kept this conflict a secret?

It will be interesting to see what they come up with!