Button bloat possible solution

There is alot of button bloat for jobs some are worse than others i've come up with a few suggestions tell me what you think:

Pld: 1. Sword/shield oath merged so you just need to press it once to swap between them
2. FightorFlight/Requiescat merged icon swaps between as one goes on cd
3. Tempered will/Bulwark combined i believe just having 1 button to do both block and prevent knockback be better
4. Shield lob/swipe merged this changes based on proximity to target melee range for swipe ranged for lob

War: 1.Defiance/Deliverance merged same as pld just 1 button swap between
2. Tomahawk/Overpower merged again Tomahawk for ranged overpower for melee range

Drk: 1.Blood weapon/price merged this changes depending on if grit is active or not
2. Unleash/Unmend merged unleash for melee range and unmend for ranged

Whm: 1. Remove Respose there is almost no point to it in group content and even solo its incredibly niche with how much resists it (this was the only whm skill that would have to be completely reworked into another skill to be useful while fluid aura just needs 2 changes dmg + no knockback)

Sch: 1. Fairy abilities merged these abilities change based on type of fairy out
2. Rouse/substain combined Rouse gaining hp restoration effect
3. Summon/Summon 2 merged icons swap depending on fairy out should dissapation be used default to hotbar icon used (if pet dies goes back to default on hotbar)

Ast: 1. Undraw removed you can now hold cards for 35s once drawn
2. Nocturnal/Diurnal sect merged swap between the two icons depending on current sect

Smn: 1. Aetherflow/Dreadwyrm Trance/Deathflare merged once used aetherflow switches to DT and after DT used switches to DF then back to aetherflow after DF
2. Egi abilities merged changes abilities based on egi out
3. Summon/Summon 3 merged so to swap between ifrit and garuda (may need a name change to evoke and evoke 3 depending on spaghetti code and if pet dies goes back to default on hotbar)
4. Rouse/substain combined Rouse gaining hp restoration effect
5. Summon/Enkindle Bahamut merged once summon bahamut changes to enkindle bahamut till bahamut leaves

Blm: 1. Sleep removed has same problems as respose too niche in solo and near useless in group content
2. Freeze/Flare merged Freeze only available in umbral ice and flare in astral fire
3. Blizzard/Fire 2 merged same as above blizzard 2 in umbral fire 2 in astral

Brd: 1. Wanderer's Minuet/Pitch perfect merged icon swaps once WM used then goes back after WM timer has run out

Mnk:1. One-ilm punch removed nigh useless now

Nin: 1. Throwing dagger/Death Blossom merged throwing dagger at range Death blossom for melee range

Sam: 1. Third Eye/Merciful Eyes merged once proced third eye changes to merciful eyes other eye proc action remains separate
2. Fuga/Mangetsu merged after fuga used it changes to Mangetsu other fuga combo ability stays separate

Mch: 1. Hot Shot/Wildfire merged once hot shot has been used changes to wildfire and vice versa
2. Rook/Bishop autoturret merged changes icon depending on the turret out goes back to default hotbar should turret die

Rdm: 1. Corps-a-corps/displacement merged replaces one after it is used
2. Tether removed nigh useless

So what do people think? tried to envision changes that wouldn't effect current rotations much if at all

I'm totally on board for every idea that does not actually remove abilities. I don't want FFXIV to go down the road of WoW. Jobs should be fun all the way to the level cap.

Sleep/repose can actually be pretty useful in eureka, I've used them in pagos more than I have used them throughout the whole of the content of the game outside of eureka combined.
... But let's not pretend that this is because the sleep spells are some hidden sleeper op spell (pun not intended) that nobody noticed before, they're useful in pagos because pagos design is awful.

If something is considered niche, there is no need to remove it. Just don't put it on your bars. Repose and Sleep should stay. Fluid Aura as a damaging ability could work, but what we have now has its own admittedly limited use for moving mobs.

Combining very dissimilar skills also seems like a bad idea. Looking only at PLD, Bulwark and Tempered Will being combined means you lose KB protection if you need to block and vice versa. Placing FoF and Req together leads to a similar issue. FoF lasts much longer, if something like a phase change in coming up you might want to Req but not FoF.

If there is any button merging it should be optional. Nothing should be outright removed.

As a SCH main, I don"t agree with faerie thing, because you would have to keep summon and Summon II to decide which faerie to call first, same thing for any sect/stance.
And I don't think it's a good idea to combine ranged skill with enmity AoE skills from tanks. (I didn't read DPS suggestions)

Any time the topic of button-consolidation comes up, or one-button-auto-changing-combos/actions that PvP has (or whatever you want to call it), there are always those that decry it for various reasons. I'm sure you'll see most of the same discussion here, so if you want a taste of various people's opinions on the matter, here's the most recent discussion that I can remember on the subject: Consolidated combos would solve the issue of button bloat going into Shadowbringers

Personally, I think there's a fair amount of actions that could be consolidated into a single button, and I'd love to see it happen. However, to keep everyone happy, the individual actions should still be able to be placed on the hotbar (which PvP does not let you do).

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Originally Posted by Balipu

I'm totally on board for every idea that does not actually remove abilities. I don't want FFXIV to go down the road of WoW. Jobs should be fun all the way to the level cap.

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I tried to not think of many remove said skills as possible but cc skills are barely used due to the resistances the devs give everything and if aany abilities should be removed these should be the 1st to go

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Originally Posted by Orbus

Sleep/repose can actually be pretty useful in eureka, I've used them in pagos more than I have used them throughout the whole of the content of the game outside of eureka combined.
... But let's not pretend that this is because the sleep spells are some hidden sleeper op spell (pun not intended) that nobody noticed before, they're useful in pagos because pagos design is awful.

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Yea CC skills are way too under utilized if they are going to have them they need to give them more uses but since the design of most content is to make things resistant to them their reason for staying as abilities get smaller and smaller

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

If something is considered niche, there is no need to remove it. Just don't put it on your bars. Repose and Sleep should stay. Fluid Aura as a damaging ability could work, but what we have now has its own admittedly limited use for moving mobs.

Combining very dissimilar skills also seems like a bad idea. Looking only at PLD, Bulwark and Tempered Will being combined means you lose KB protection if you need to block and vice versa. Placing FoF and Req together leads to a similar issue. FoF lasts much longer, if something like a phase change in coming up you might want to Req but not FoF.

If there is any button merging it should be optional. Nothing should be outright removed.

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I think CC skills are too niche to justify their continued existence and if any ability might need to be removed these should be top priority. With Bulwark and TW i may have explained it poorly i wanted to go with the idea that bulwark does both abilities if it had a slightly reduced cd so it can prevent knockback bit more often and with bulwark it shouldn't be the only defensive cd used anyway and with shelltron giving it an extra use. As for FoF and Req neither should be used while other is active and once a fight has started they should be on cd as much as possible the only real issue would be huge downtime where they might both be off cd in which case a default hotbar icon option might be needed

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Originally Posted by Blazinhart

As a SCH main, I don"t agree with faerie thing, because you would have to keep summon and Summon II to decide which faerie to call first, same thing for any sect/stance.
And I don't think it's a good idea to combine ranged skill with enmity AoE skills from tanks. (I didn't read DPS suggestions)

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ok i think it was just something possible to have happen as you always want a fairy out unless used dissipation but what did you think of just having the 4 abilities for the Lily getting swapped for Selenes' if you swapped fairies? As for the tanks abilities it allowed some pruning while doing he least harm you shuld not be doing your ranged tank skill within melee range and vice versa

1. What’s the default? How can one choose the one that’s not default, takes away options.
2. Removes options what if I want to use one and not the other.
3. More options removed, knockback nullifcation shouldn’t be tied to a defensive cd
4. Now you can no longer shield lob a stray add when you are in melee range of another one. Bad idea.

War: see PLD reasons

Drk: 1. Decent
2. see Above.

Whm: 1. No

Sch: 1. Macros, they already change on the pet bar.
2. sounds good
3. What’s the default how do I summon the non default when I don’t want the default.

Ast: 1. Undraw is extremely useful.
2. Again, how do you use the non default action.

Smn: 1. No
2. See fairy explaination
3. See above
4. good
5. Could work

Blm: 1. No
2. No
3. No

Brd: 1 like this one

Mnk:1. Extremely useful

Nin: 1. No reduces options during fights as with all the others

Sam: 1. Indifferent on these, but seems like it could lead to problems

Mch: 1. No
2. No

Rdm: 1. No, what if I want to jump away and jump to is up, it leads to problems.
2. Not useless.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

With Bulwark and TW i may have explained it poorly i wanted to go with the idea that bulwark does both abilities if it had a slightly reduced cd so it can prevent knockback bit more often and with bulwark it shouldn't be the only defensive cd used anyway and with shelltron giving it an extra use. As for FoF and Req neither should be used while other is active and once a fight has started they should be on cd as much as possible the only real issue would be huge downtime where they might both be off cd in which case a default hotbar icon option might be needed

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Even with a reduced CD, the ultimate issue tying knockback prevention to any tank CD causes an issue of "You either use it for mitigation, or you use it for knockback." as the two almost never happen simultaneously.

With WAR as a prime example, they get two anti-knockbacks, but will almost never use either for those effects due to the fact that holding them to negate knockbacks that aren't happening at the time they use them naturally results in either losing your strongest anti-tank buster tool (Holmgang) or losing a ton of dps (Inner Release). Even with a shorter CD on Bulwark, losing a basically 30% mitigation buff for 15s hurts a lot to burn on a knockback.

Considering its relative weakness in comparison to actual mitigation, it'd be best to slap anti-knockback on Anticipation as a cross role so all three tanks can benefit from a non-infringing anti-knockback tool; since many tanks aren't going to rely on a medium % chance to parry alone on a tankbuster, and would give anticipation a use in fights where the majority of moves are magic.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

Any time the topic of button-consolidation comes up, or one-button-auto-changing-combos/actions that PvP has (or whatever you want to call it), there are always those that decry it for various reasons. I'm sure you'll see most of the same discussion here, so if you want a taste of various people's opinions on the matter, here's the most recent discussion that I can remember on the subject: Consolidated combos would solve the issue of button bloat going into Shadowbringers

Personally, I think there's a fair amount of actions that could be consolidated into a single button, and I'd love to see it happen. However, to keep everyone happy, the individual actions should still be able to be placed on the hotbar (which PvP does not let you do).

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Aye i tried to avoid combo consolidation as much as possible so i looked at buffs/abilities that shouldn't be used together stances/CC skills etc

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Rdm: 1. Corps-a-corps/displacement merged replaces one after it is used

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And how would you choose, when being close to a boss, between adding additionnal damage with corps-a-corps, or using displacement in a hurry to avoid an aoe ? I dont know how you play your RDM, but for my part i need these two skills being available at any time.

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2. Tether removed nigh useless

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Tether did save my life, potentially make me avoid a huge xp loss, and even allowed me to be the only survivor of the group after a too big aggro to be back to raise everybody, several times in Eureka. I know we never see dps doing some crowd control in dungeons as long as the tank stay alive, but that dont means that this skill is useless everywhere for everybody. If you dont like this skill simply dont put it in your bars, as i have not break and drain in mine.

That being said i dont think RDM need less buttons to press (i feel way more overwhelmed when playing, for example, BRD). The scatter spam is sometimes so boring that i could even welcome more aoes combos along of the single target ones. Maybe in Shadowbringers ?

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Originally Posted by Ariel_Valmont

1. What’s the default? How can one choose the one that’s not default, takes away options.
2. Removes options what if I want to use one and not the other.
3. More options removed, knockback nullifcation shouldn’t be tied to a defensive cd
4. Now you can no longer shield lob a stray add when you are in melee range of another one. Bad idea.

War: see PLD reasons

Drk: 1. Decent
2. see Above.

Whm: 1. No

Sch: 1. Macros, they already change on the pet bar.
2. sounds good
3. What’s the default how do I summon the non default when I don’t want the default.

Ast: 1. Undraw is extremely useful.
2. Again, how do you use the non default action.

Smn: 1. No
2. See fairy explaination
3. See above
4. good
5. Could work

Blm: 1. No
2. No
3. No

Brd: 1 like this one

Mnk:1. Extremely useful

Nin: 1. No reduces options during fights as with all the others

Sam: 1. Indifferent on these, but seems like it could lead to problems

Mch: 1. No
2. No

Rdm: 1. No, what if I want to jump away and jump to is up, it leads to problems.
2. Not useless.

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Default would be what you place on your hotbar so if summon then default is summon after pet dies if you wished for the other one to be default place that on your hotbar instead and the ability won't switch icon until used for the 1st time. When it comes with the possibility of removing skills CC skills should be 1st on the list for ffxiv yet they kept them while still offering the majority of content that is immune to them i'd rather they rework them to be more useful but if any skills need to go these are 1st i would expect to go. If your target is out of melee range then it would automatically make the ability shield lob same goes with the other tanks so long as your target is in melee range it would defer to the melee range ability and vice versa. Macros are present but the game could do this automatically and would save any new sch the hassle of grabbing them. Undraw is useful atm but if you could hold card for 35s Undraw becomes unnecessary as you can just spread every time. The aetherflow/DWT/DF merge is to prevent silliness with using aetherflow in DWT it would make things simplier without giving up the rotation. Talk to any good blm and they tell you freeze has a niche very very small but there but fire 2 and blizzard 2 aren't used in any rotation and flare never used in umbral ice so nothing is lost here by merging them to 1 button each depending on if your in umbral ice or astral fire. Like to know where one-ilm punch is used most bosses ik are immune to it and generally not a good idea to use on trash mobs.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Even with a reduced CD, the ultimate issue tying knockback prevention to any tank CD causes an issue of "You either use it for mitigation, or you use it for knockback." as the two almost never happen simultaneously.

With WAR as a prime example, they get two anti-knockbacks, but will almost never use either for those effects due to the fact that holding them to negate knockbacks that aren't happening at the time they use them naturally results in either losing your strongest anti-tank buster tool (Holmgang) or losing a ton of dps (Inner Release). Even with a shorter CD on Bulwark, losing a basically 30% mitigation buff for 15s hurts a lot to burn on a knockback.

Considering its relative weakness in comparison to actual mitigation, it'd be best to slap anti-knockback on Anticipation as a cross role so all three tanks can benefit from a non-infringing anti-knockback tool; since many tanks aren't going to rely on a medium % chance to parry alone on a tankbuster, and would give anticipation a use in fights where the majority of moves are magic.

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i'll concede to that i was just trying to see how to reduce pld abilities as i personally find it has the most bloat outta the tanks and it seemed like a good idea to make bulwark more useful on it's own but i didn't think it fully through

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

And how would you choose, when being close to a boss, between adding additionnal damage with corps-a-corps, or using displacement in a hurry to avoid an aoe ? I dont know how you play your RDM, but for my part i need these two skills being available at any time.

Tether did save my life, potentially make me avoid a huge xp loss, and even allowed me to be the only survivor of the group after a too big aggro to be back to raise everybody, several times in Eureka. I know we never see dps doing some crowd control in dungeons as long as the tank stay alive, but that dont means that this skill is useless everywhere for everybody. If you dont like this skill simply dont put it in your bars, as i have not break and drain in mine.

That being said i dont think RDM need less buttons to press (i feel way more overwhelmed when playing, for example, BRD). The scatter spam is sometimes so boring that i could even welcome more aoes combos along of the single target ones. Maybe in Shadowbringers ?

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Aye some jobs are way more bloaty than others but i looked at tether going forward in ffxiv and it seems more unnecessary unless we get more stuff like Eureka these skills validity will diminish the further we go as the devs seem adamant to make CC skills not work. As for Corps-a-corps and deplacement i could see rdm going either way it's not needed atm as rdm is nowhere near bloaty for it to be needed and was just an idea i threw out their i do not main rdm and i play it for fun thus my experience with it is limited.

I can't say I agree to everything that you suggested, but I wont state that the reasoning for them is unwarranted. I just feel a little more thought needs to go into how to approach certain skills.

For instance on Monk, One Ilm Punch is "useless" but why not make it a line AoE and increase the TP, that would solve its usage issue and fix the break in Monk's AoE rotation.

And skills like Tether, Tri-bind, Blizzard II, Sleep, Repose, etc those arent "bad" per se, but skills that only have a niche usage such as binds and sleeps should be role skills, not job specific. They made so many other actions role skills why not those.

And also add some QoL adjustments instead of outright removal/combination. Like Aetherflow, for SMN at least, if it gets locked when you are in DWT, you wont accidentally press it and lose possible stacks.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

There is alot of button bloat for jobs some are worse than others i've come up with a few suggestions tell me what you think:

SNIP

So what do people think? tried to envision changes that wouldn't effect current rotations much if at all

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No. Seriously please don't do this. I like things the way they are.

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

No. Seriously please don't do this. I like things the way they are.

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That's great, but we're going to get new abilities with the expansion. Some things are going to have to be removed or consolidated to make room for those new abilities.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

That's great, but we're going to get new abilities with the expansion. Some things are going to have to be removed or consolidated to make room for those new abilities.

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If that ends up being the solution then they can also trim my sub to make room for someone else's.

Sub consolidation if you will. After all they don't need all of them.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

That's great, but we're going to get new abilities with the expansion. Some things are going to have to be removed or consolidated to make room for those new abilities.

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According to Yoshi they are aware of the button bloat and are looking at more doing upgraded abilities rather than brand new ones. So we may just see a bunch of upgraded abilities and traits rather than getting any new buttons with the expac. Buttons still may be trimmed down, but nothing major most likely till 6.x.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

According to Yoshi they are aware of the button bloat and are looking at more doing upgraded abilities rather than brand new ones. So we may just see a bunch of upgraded abilities and traits rather than getting any new buttons with the expac. Buttons still may be trimmed down, but nothing major most likely till 6.x.

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This I would be on board with. Why do I need different skills in the first place? Why not direct upgrade skills and traits?

If someone is overwhelmed with the current buttons, I would be ok with an Option to consolidate buttons. I would not be ok with it being forced on me.

As far as the OP goes

"Rdm: 1. Corps-a-corps/displacement merged replaces one after it is used
2. Tether removed nigh useless "

I can see the case for #2 but am very against #1. There are times I want to use displacement before corps a corps. I would dislike having this option taken away.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Default would be what you place on your hotbar so if summon then default is summon after pet dies if you wished for the other one to be default place that on your hotbar instead and the ability won't switch icon until used for the 1st time. When it comes with the possibility of removing skills CC skills should be 1st on the list for ffxiv yet they kept them while still offering the majority of content that is immune to them i'd rather they rework them to be more useful but if any skills need to go these are 1st i would expect to go. If your target is out of melee range then it would automatically make the ability shield lob same goes with the other tanks so long as your target is in melee range it would defer to the melee range ability and vice versa. Macros are present but the game could do this automatically and would save any new sch the hassle of grabbing them. Undraw is useful atm but if you could hold card for 35s Undraw becomes unnecessary as you can just spread every time. The aetherflow/DWT/DF merge is to prevent silliness with using aetherflow in DWT it would make things simplier without giving up the rotation. Talk to any good blm and they tell you freeze has a niche very very small but there but fire 2 and blizzard 2 aren't used in any rotation and flare never used in umbral ice so nothing is lost here by merging them to 1 button each depending on if your in umbral ice or astral fire. Like to know where one-ilm punch is used most bosses ik are immune to it and generally not a good idea to use on trash mobs.

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Placing actions on the fly to get the desired default to the Hotbar sounds clunky.

What kind of delays are people going to get with switchable actions (ranged to melee) when they have high picks. This seems like it has potential to cause serious issues.

Aside from bosses most everything else can be affected by CC, I’d rather see situations where it needs to be used, then remove it.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer to stun AOE that would force me to run out of attack distance and continue my attacking. 1ilm punch works great for when you’ve built up stun resistance on things.

When it comes to BLM/SMN I really don’t find either of those jobs bloated I see what your sayin on SMN but it doesn’t seem necessary.

Any reason you left out DRG, that’s by far the most button bloated job there is.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

That's great, but we're going to get new abilities with the expansion. Some things are going to have to be removed or consolidated to make room for those new abilities.

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I would really like to start seeing new traits that change current skills and or the way they interact with each other instead of just piling on new actions. I feel they could make gameplay much more interesting going this route instead of adding and subtracting actions every expansion.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Rdm: 1. Corps-a-corps/displacement merged replaces one after it is used
2. Tether removed nigh useless

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Originally Posted by WaterShield

I can see the case for #2 but am very against #1. There are times I want to use displacement before corps a corps. I would dislike having this option taken away.

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Merging Corps-a-corps and Displacement in any way is an absolutely horrible idea, whether it switches with each use or is distance-based. It would effectively mean we can't use either of them on any non-backstep-friendly arena, of which there are several.