Primal Slaying

Good evening all,
Sorry if this has been asked or discussed before. I'm reading the first lore book and it talks about the WoL killing the primal by himself, even though in game we have a party. So is it cannon that we slay primals by ourselves?

Yes.
No.
It depends.

For some primals (e.g. Ifrit) it is quite clear storywise that we are on our own when they show up.
For some of them we are explicitly told to gather some companions before engaging the primal.

This always made me a laugh little.

Sometimes we are the great hero, the only one who can save Eorzea, because we are chosen by Hydaelyn and have this very rar ability, that makes us immune to Primals owers.

And then sometimes it's like "Go gather seven dudes who are just like you..."

It's pretty much the same in any MMO's when a new superboss is introduced. "Whole imperiums did fall by his hand!...but usually ten guys with swords and fireballs are enough to kick his ass..."

Or when we do a side quest and there is a gang boss or something like that. Everyone should know that we are the warrior of light who slayes guys like Nidhogg or Ifrit for breakfast, but these guys still think they can take us on. x'D

For much of the content, it's assumed that we alone, managed all these feats.

It's only later, mostly HW content and beyond, that people start saying "Go gather some of your adventurer friendo's!" before we tackle a primal. About the same time where the Echo stops being this rare and unique thing and it appears that everyone and their cat is "Chosen by Hydaelyn" and has the Echo >.>

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

It's pretty much the same in any MMO's when a new superboss is introduced. "Whole imperiums did fall by his hand!...but usually ten guys with swords and fireballs are enough to kick his ass..."

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Well, to be fair, we literally do have super powers. Like, we're much the same as how OP Fordola was shown after she got the Echo where no-one could touch her.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Or when we do a side quest and there is a gang boss or something like that. Everyone should know that we are the warrior of light who slayes guys like Nidhogg or Ifrit for breakfast, but these guys still think they can take us on. x'D

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Though, not everyone knows who we are. We're just another of the many adventurers across Eorzea to most people. Since, it's not like anyone has built a statue of us (Yet... I saved the world countless times, where's my statue! :( ). Usually people only recognise us after we give our name. Or after we beat them to a pulp because they're like a small time crook taking on the infamous Warrior of Light xD

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Originally Posted by Kalise

About the same time where the Echo stops being this rare and unique thing and

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The Echo was never all that rare, and certainly not unique. Minfilia started her organization (back in 1.x) to gather people who had the Echo and to study it.
When we first visit the Waking Sands it is very likely that several of the people there have the Echo, even though only two of them (Minfilia and Arenvald) are confirmed as having it.

It seems to me like we're always story wise meant to have party members with us but they don't always remember to, or feel the need, to shove in some reference. For example the Susano trial description says nobody can defeat a primal on their own. Lyse in 4.1 says 'it takes more than three to beat a primal' and her and Raubahn are in portant in helping us take down Lakshmi before Fordola's barrier gives out.

With Ifrit, there's an npc you can talk to you says 'hey you can slip out here if you need to' or something like that leaving room for the WOL to have potentially gone out and gotten aid as well.

But the game can be inconsistent with power scaling. Like what do we do between our second curbstomp from Zenos and Ala Mhigo that allows us to actually fight him? Why was Shinryu such a big deal Popolymo had to sacrifice himself to buy time and we risked unleashing Omega to deal with it...then in the end Zenos possesses it and we just kill it like it was any other monster?

Sometimes we get some lore to help explain things. The first fight with Nidhogg we had Estinien using one of the dragon's eyes against him. In the second fight, we get a buff from Hrasvalgr's eye. Sometimes we just kick ass like against Thordan and Shinryu.

My recommendation is to look to the journal for hints. If the devs thought it was important to note that you did it alone in spite of the game mechanics, it'll usually say so. Conversely, it'll also usually note if you put a call out on your shellphone, like, "Oi, who wants to be at a tavern tomorrow night bragging that you stood alongside the Warrior of Light at the Battle of Whatever? ...Assuming you live, of course." and took who came running.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

The Echo was never all that rare, and certainly not unique. Minfilia started her organization (back in 1.x) to gather people who had the Echo and to study it.
When we first visit the Waking Sands it is very likely that several of the people there have the Echo, even though only two of them (Minfilia and Arenvald) are confirmed as having it.

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Well, then everyone forgot, because most of the story was going on about how you as the Warrior of Light were the only one capable of being around Primals because of the Echo.

Fast forward to late into HW and it's like *Meet a random person for the first time* "Oh, hello there adventurer, isn't the Echo wonderful. My whole family has the Echo. Look I can come with you to the primal because I have the Echo! Should I invite all my friends? They all have the Echo too!"

It went from being only a few people having it (With Minfillia using it to track down those that had it in order to recruit them into the Scions) to pretty much 90% of the people you meet seeming to have it.

Like, if it was SOOO common back in the day, why wasn't Minfillia recruiting a bunch more people all the time? Why couldn't we have formed the Crystal Braves out of people with the Echo and let them go deal with Primals instead of relying entirely on the WoL (You know, with the whole disaster that was not in question)?

Keep in mind that non echo blessed people 'can' kill primals, it's just usually a costly battle. The Company of Heroes and grand companies have killed primals before. The WOL having the echo just makes it safer and less costly to do so. Also Raubahn and Lyse help kill Lakshmi in 4.1.

So having some non echo blessed people help isn't unheard of either.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Keep in mind that non echo blessed people 'can' kill primals, it's just usually a costly battle. The Company of Heroes and grand companies have killed primals before. The WOL having the echo just makes it safer and less costly to do so. Also Raubahn and Lyse help kill Lakshmi in 4.1.

So having some non echo blessed people help isn't unheard of either.

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True.

Though, it's incredibly dangerous, due to the risk of being taken by the primals influence (Unless you have some people with the echo to play Missile Defence for you... Like with Arenvald when the meeting for Gyr Abania ended up with a summoning of Lakshmi, until Missile Defence turned into bullet hell and we needed Fordola, who I can accept having the Echo because she was given it artificially)

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Fast forward to late into HW and it's like *Meet a random person for the first time* "Oh, hello there adventurer, isn't the Echo wonderful. My whole family has the Echo. Look I can come with you to the primal because I have the Echo! Should I invite all my friends? They all have the Echo too!"

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Who? Since when?

Characters I can think of with the Echo, in rough meeting order: Minfilia, Arenvald, other Scions*, Ysayle, Krile, Warriors of Darkness, Unukalhai (kinda sorta), Temulun (maybe), Fordola and apparently Zenos (artificially).

* ie. minor characters at the Waking Sands. The only definite one I can think of by name is Dariustel. But I assume others got recruited because Minfilia found out they had the Echo as well.

We met a lot of other characters over this period that don't have the Echo at all. Who are you thinking of?

It's an occasional plot point that we can't easily take our NPC friends with us to fight primals in case they get tempered, which is why we have to call up a random group of Echo-blessed adventurers who can safely assist us instead.

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Like, if it was SOOO common back in the day, why wasn't Minfillia recruiting a bunch more people all the time? Why couldn't we have formed the Crystal Braves out of people with the Echo and let them go deal with Primals instead of relying entirely on the WoL (You know, with the whole disaster that was not in question)?

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A few Path members show up as background Scion npcs early in ARR but I've kinda assumed it is a soft retcon or that many of them died in the Calamity and Hydaelyn just doesn't have the ability to gift the Echo as frequently anymore as she grows weaker. As Iscah said we don't actually meet that many people explicitly said to have the Echo 2.0+.

Also the WoL defends Alisaie and Lyse from being tempered in a CS when Lakshmi is first introduced, presumably we can do that for our non-echo blessed companions to a degree or we have a network of Echo adventures we can call for backup. Take your pick.

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Originally Posted by leocordis

Good evening all,
Sorry if this has been asked or discussed before. I'm reading the first lore book and it talks about the WoL killing the primal by himself, even though in game we have a party. So is it cannon that we slay primals by ourselves?

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Some of the posters in this thread are incorrect. Canonically, the WoL acts alone in every fight. The quest text about "gather some friends" just lets you know that you are going to have to go into duty finder to run the dungeon or trial.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Some of the posters in this thread are incorrect. Canonically, the WoL acts alone in every fight. The quest text about "gather some friends" just lets you know that you are going to have to go into duty finder to run the dungeon or trial.

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Doesn't the journal during the Susano-o fight mention how convenient it was that your adventurer buddies just happen to be nearby in a boat to help you or something silly? I don't think they're all fought alone.

Here it is:
“Your efforts to wreak havoc on the Isle of Zekki and draw the Red Kojin away from their imperial masters have exceeded all expectations. Unfortunately, for reasons beyond your knowing, two of the sacred treasures stored in the isle's vault "reacted" to the presence of the Yasakani-no-Magatama, summoning forth from the aether the great kami Susano—a primal by another name. How fortunate that you had the wisdom and foresight to invite several of your fellow adventurers on this journey to the Far East, and how kind they were to agree to help you torment the Red Kojin, for no single warrior, no matter how blessed or powerful, could ever hope to slay a primal on their own, despite what some wandering minstrels would have you believe.”

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Originally Posted by Lium

Some of the posters in this thread are incorrect. Canonically, the WoL acts alone in every fight. The quest text about "gather some friends" just lets you know that you are going to have to go into duty finder to run the dungeon or trial.

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Well, it's not just quest text. The actual characters in the game tell you to go grab some adventurer friends. Like, I believe for Bismark, Cid asks you if you and your friends are ready to go. As I recall, you also get told to go grab some friends to take out Lakshmi too.

Let me dig up some quotes:

Bismarck -

Cid:
Then all that remains is to confirm the readiness of the poor buggers who'll actually be doing the fighting. Forename, let Wedge know when your party is assembled.

Wedge:
A-Are we really going to go skyfishing for a primal!?

Cid:
We'll depart for the island once you've assembled your party. Let Wedge know when you're ready.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

Doesn't the journal during the Susano-o fight mention how convenient it was that your adventurer buddies just happen to be nearby in a boat to help you or something silly? I don't think they're all fought alone.

Here it is:
“Your efforts to wreak havoc on the Isle of Zekki and draw the Red Kojin away from their imperial masters have exceeded all expectations. Unfortunately, for reasons beyond your knowing, two of the sacred treasures stored in the isle's vault "reacted" to the presence of the Yasakani-no-Magatama, summoning forth from the aether the great kami Susano—a primal by another name. How fortunate that you had the wisdom and foresight to invite several of your fellow adventurers on this journey to the Far East, and how kind they were to agree to help you torment the Red Kojin, for no single warrior, no matter how blessed or powerful, could ever hope to slay a primal on their own, despite what some wandering minstrels would have you believe.”

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That was tongue-in-cheek. SE was actually making fun of the fact that you were supposed to only be there with Alisae and Lyse (I believe) yet somehow there were several of your adventurers in the region just waiting for you to call on them. You are THE Warrior of Light. The only person on the star (that we know of) who has the Blessing of Hydaelyn, which is something only Midgardsormr seems to understand, and not even the Ascians can fully grasp.

Canonically, you are the only one capable of performing these miraculous feats.

Thanks everyone for the answers. It was just weird to me because one spot mentioned about Thordan how history will never know how we beat him by ourselves yet then lyse says we need help with Lakshmi

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Originally Posted by Lium

Some of the posters in this thread are incorrect. Canonically, the WoL acts alone in every fight. The quest text about "gather some friends" just lets you know that you are going to have to go into duty finder to run the dungeon or trial.

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Canonically, if it was spoken within the story, by other characters in the story, that you would be going into the location with other people, then that's my understanding of exactly what makes it canon that you are not alone in that dungeon.

Sometimes it's specifically justified - sending a small group into the narrow passages of Snowcloak, or leading a team of fighters in the raid on Castrum Meridianum (who are with you for both the Castrum and Praetorium dungeons, even though they only appear in the cutscenes for the latter). You canonically recruited a whole crowd of adventurers to defend the Steps of Faith and surrounding areas, and see "your party" (actually fixed NPCs that look like they'd be player characters) sitting around exhausted in the cutscene after the battle.

And sometimes they make no mention of other characters, or make it clear that you actually are (supposedly) there alone. Those are the instances where we can assume our party are purely a game mechanic.

The tongue-in-cheek-ness of Susano's trial description is unusual, as far as I can remember. Normally they don't highlight the absurdity of assembling a party out of nowhere; they would just act like you're going in "canonically alone".

Unless it's been said somewhere outside of the game that they "don't mean it" when characters say this sort of thing?

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Originally Posted by leocordis

Thanks everyone for the answers. It was just weird to me because one spot mentioned about Thordan how history will never know how we beat him by ourselves yet then lyse says we need help with Lakshmi

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Power levels in an ever-increasing game like this are always weird. Technically Lakshmi does outlevel Thordan and we've gotten stronger since that fight. But who knows if "game levels" are really supposed to come into this? I think they just do whatever works storywise at the time, and maybe don't think too hard about the exact levels. Or keep track of how they framed it last time.


Although I did like the theory I read one time that the reason Zenos thrashes us the first few times we fight, is that he's already Lv70 and we need to catch up before we can fight him on an equal level, as it were...



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(Also, headcanonically, my WoL has an actual permanent party with her anyway. Which works an awful lot better for story and power-level consistency, not that it helps much for interpreting the canon take on things...)

So first things first, atleast some instances of "go gather some fellow adventurers/some friends just happen to be in the area!" are English only tongue-in-cheek references, atleast thats what I remember when this last came up back when Stormblood people got to Susano.

Second: The Echo is indeed a rare ability to possess, but nowhere NEAR being a one of a kind thing. Hell, before you even get out of your first city-state story-wise and meet the Scions officially you are made aware that many other people also have the Echo. And none of those NPCs you see in the Hydaelyn vision where you see this are seen afterwards (personally believe they are stand-ins for other player characters there.)

The actual very rare ability we have is the Blessing of Light, which is not connected to the Echo as demonstrated at the end of ARR and a good chunk of HW when we had the Blessing taken away but still held the Echo. This gives us a good bit of power at the right moments to deal with problems as needed and while not exclusive to us, the amount of users who we know for sure had it throughout all of known history can be counted on two hands, just one if we only count the source and not the WoD from the First Shard.

Third: Primal Slaying may not be the easiest thing to do, but without their Tempering ability you'd see alot more people be able to stand up to them. If we got the level 20 quest and instead of us fighting Ifrit we were told Raubahn came in as the cavalry and defeat the Primal? I'd believe it in a heartbeat. The problem with Primals as far as fighting them goes always comes down to tempering though, and thats why us being to beat them solo story-wise is believable. We no sell the biggest threat they have. How well anyone can stand up to them alone or in a group outside of tempering also depends on the amount of aether/prayer they got as well (again why first time we fight Ifrit I could believe Raubahn coulda solo'd him too: Ifrit tends to get summoned the first chance the Amal'jaa can get and all that).

Final note: I also headcanon a group of adventurers in my head rather than just one, with some other ones being around enough to be called on for 8/24-mans or even vice-versa with them calling on the WoL group instead.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Some of the posters in this thread are incorrect. Canonically, the WoL acts alone in every fight. The quest text about "gather some friends" just lets you know that you are going to have to go into duty finder to run the dungeon or trial.

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Doesn't really explain the text about having friends in the fight after said fight, though.

https://i.imgur.com/hZ4nyUv.jpg

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to the Trust system so much is that it might help solve a lot of this.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

Doesn't really explain the text about having friends in the fight after said fight, though.

https://i.imgur.com/hZ4nyUv.jpg

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When I read Lium's post, I was racking my brain trying to remember where I'd read exactly this. Thanks for digging it up for me!

Bottom line: Canon is INCONSISTENT as to whether the WoL operates alone, or in a group, or sometimes one sometimes the other. To post otherwise on this, or any forum, is misleading. It is up to each individual to decide whether their character is a solo champion or a capable leader - BOTH angles perfectly suit the Warrior of Light.

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Originally Posted by leocordis

Thanks everyone for the answers. It was just weird to me because one spot mentioned about Thordan how history will never know how we beat him by ourselves yet then lyse says we need help with Lakshmi

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It's stated that strength of a primal is related to the strength of the summoner's belief as well as the available aether. Thordan was like Shiva, in that he turned himself into a primal using mainly the aether stored in Niddhogg's eyes. I don't know if he was tempered (as it's never stated he had the Echo), but I'd say he didn't really have the level of faith in his idea of Thordan as tempered people do. The second time we fight Lakshmi, it's not that we really need her, it's that we're busy trying to protect everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Delily

It's stated that strength of a primal is related to the strength of the summoner's belief as well as the available aether. Thordan was like Shiva, in that he turned himself into a primal using mainly the aether stored in Niddhogg's eyes. I don't know if he was tempered (as it's never stated he had the Echo), but I'd say he didn't really have the level of faith in his idea of Thordan as tempered people do. The second time we fight Lakshmi, it's not that we really need her, it's that we're busy trying to protect everyone else.

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We're busy doing that in the first phase but then AFTER everyone gets rescued she and Raubahn stay behind to fight because 'it takes more than three to beat a primal.' And for what it's worth, you need her attack at the end to finish off Lakshmi before Fordola's barrier breaks. Or at least I did maybe I just had crap dps on the three characters I did the fight on.

I think it's assumed we aren't one man armies. Like, even in instances during MSQ we have to have an ally throw cures at us.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Thordan was like Shiva, in that he turned himself into a primal using mainly the aether stored in Niddhogg's eyes. I don't know if he was tempered (as it's never stated he had the Echo), but I'd say he didn't really have the level of faith in his idea of Thordan as tempered people do.

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I think he was tempered - or "blessed" as the specific term for that primal puts it.

I'm not certain but I think the very first time we talk to him, and he reveals the Ascians are trying to tempt him with power and he's "playing along" for now, he's still himself. But sometime after that, the Ascians must show him how to work the summoning for the first time, and that's when he becomes truly villainous.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It is up to each individual to decide whether their character is a solo champion or a capable leader - BOTH angles perfectly suit the Warrior of Light.

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Or an overpowered mage who still needs her tank and healer friends to support her and make sure she can actually cast those spells safely!

Thordan has a number of seeming unresolved inconsistencies that could use some retro-polish, anyway.

Nabriales delivers a monologue about how he was tasked with finding a way to "merge man with the divine". He declares Ysayle the first successful test subject - that success blamed on the Echo.

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Originally Posted by Nabriales"

I suffered the overweening presence of Lahabrea that men might host the power of gods, only for you to undo my hard work.

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Originally Posted by Nabriales

「超える力」を持つ者への「神」の憑依。
Those with "the Echo" can host "gods".

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Then on NicoNico Toukaigi, the FFXIV team hosted a trivia game which declared that only Thordan was a primal, and that he used this primal power to bestow upon the Heavens' Ward the blessing of the divine forms of the Knights of the Round. (Not to be confused with the blessing he holds over their heads to ensure obedience; his primal-specific word for tempering.)

This of course appears to be in direct conflict with Lore Book 1.

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The ritual used to imbue the archbishop's mortal vessel with the divine essence of his ancestor followed the same principle as that employed by Ysayle and her summoning of Saint Shiva—a rite previously perfected with the Heavens' Ward and their primal incarnations of the legendary knights twelve.

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These two seeming inconsistencies appear to back them into a corner. Either interpretation leaves wonkiness in its wake because Zephirin already has a primal form early in the story, and shapeshifts in and out of it.

Assuming Elidibus gave Thordan the Echo might clean up a lot of this - granting him the presumed ability to repeatedly summon his primal form without destroying his mortal frame or tempering himself - but there aren't any good reasons to believe that's true and the devs seem hesitant to confirm or deny. Still, it fits with the Heavens' Ward vanishing upon his death that he blessed them ... which implies this wasn't the first time he became King Thordan.

And Tsukuyomi would then be an interesting mix of Thordan and Susano solving one another's respective primal wokiness (while making a grand example by temporarily tempering and eventually killing the Echo-less Yotsuyu).

I don't even try to solve this one, anymore.