Aspects of all primals so far

Ifrit: Fire
Titan: Earth
Garuda: Wind
Leviathan: Water
Shiva: Ice
Ramuh: Lightning

Odin/Zantetsuken: Unaspected (Dark)
Moggle Mog: Unaspected (Light)

Thordan: Unaspected (Light)
Bahamut: Unaspected

Ravana: Fire/Earth
Bismarck: Water/Wind

Sophia: Lightning/Wind
Sephirot: Earth/Water
Zurvan: Fire/Ice

Shinryu: All

Lakshmi: Unaspected (Light)
Susano: Lightning/Water/Earth
Tsukiyomi: Unaspected (Darkness)
Alexander: Unaspected (Light)

Not counting the 4 Lords since they aren't primals who draw aether from crystals/surroundings.

Bahamut is a Fire primal, only the fire we're talking about is the Stellar Fire found in the sun. And he's been absorbing that aether for oh... 5,000 years... There's a reason all of Bahamut's major attacks share the "Flare" name. Bahamut is kinda like a solar flare that is dragon shaped.

Sephirot is Earth/Wind, not Earth/Water. Think bio-domes and how plants need to "breathe" air and release things like pollen into the air. Ein Sof, and Ein Sof Ohr look like domes filling up with (poisoned) air. His Spirit/Life Force AoE is also split into green (traditional color of wind) and yellow (traditional color of rock) sections. In addition, his adds are rock (Cochma, Binah) and wind (Storm of Words) based. And yes, none of the Warring Triad Primals are water-aspected.

You forgot everyone's favorite primal Enkidu.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

Bahamut is a Fire primal, only the fire we're talking about is the Stellar Fire found in the sun. And he's been absorbing that aether for oh... 5,000 years... There's a reason all of Bahamut's major attacks share the "Flare" name. Bahamut is kinda like a solar flare that is dragon shaped.

Sephirot is Earth/Wind, not Earth/Water. Think bio-domes and how plants need to "breathe" air and release things like pollen into the air. Ein Sof, and Ein Sof Ohr look like domes filling up with (poisoned) air. His Spirit/Life Force AoE is also split into green (traditional color of wind) and yellow (traditional color of rock) sections. In addition, his adds are rock (Cochma, Binah) and wind (Storm of Words) based. And yes, none of the Warring Triad Primals are water-aspected.

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I thought it was said the 7th calamity had all aspects of elements (compared to previous calamities that were earth,fire,wind,water,ice,lightning).

As for Sephirot, I assumed Earth/Water because Sophia has Wind/Lightning, and Zurvan is Fire/Ice, therefore all 6 main elements covered by the warring triad and are in balance with eachother.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

You forgot everyone's favorite primal Enkidu.

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Enkidu is Fire, as he is born from Greg's prayers while near a large shipment of Fire Crystals.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I thought it was said the 7th calamity had all aspects of elements (compared to previous calamities that were earth,fire,wind,water,ice,lightning).

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The 7th Calamity is all elements with an Astral charge. But Lore Book 1 says in at least two places that Bahamut is a fire primal. The aspect of Calamities doesn't seem to be linked to what caused the Calamity as it is. The War of the Magi resulted in a Calamity of Water. Xanded flooding the Crystal Tower with Dalamud's energy (really Bahamut's energy) caused a Calamity of Earth. Too much volcanic activity resulted in a Calamity of Lighting.

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As for Sephirot, I assumed Earth/Water because Sophia has Wind/Lightning, and Zurvan is Fire/Ice, therefore all 6 covered by the warring triad and are in balance with eachother.

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The Warring Triad is not in some kind of elemental balance with each other. That's just something the fandom keeps shoehorning onto the Warring Triad and Sephirot is the only primal whose attack names don't have elemental names, so he has the most wiggle room. The longer FFXIV goes on, the less the primals have to do with any particular aspect of aether and the more they have to do with causing ideas to come to life.

Personally, I think assigning aetheric elements to the eikons downplays what really gives them power. Each primal is based on an idea that has almost nothing to do with aetheric elements and everything to do with they myths, stories and histories that surround that Primal. You'd probably be better off saying that Sephirot is the Lord of Growth then that Sephirot is an earth/wind aspected primal. As it is, most primals have titles anyway, and most of them don't center around elements. Or if they do, it's usually a specific manifestation of that element. And as the game goes on, the titles of eikons become more and more about abstract ideas, then about concrete things.

Primals and their Titles/concepts

Ifrit, Lord of the Inferno
Titan, Lord of Crags
Garuda, Lady of the Vortex
Good King Moggle Mog XII*
Enkidu*
Leviathan, Lord of the Whorl
Ramuh, Lord of Levin
Shiva, Lady of Frost*
Odin, The Dark Divinity
Phoneix, Primal of Rebirth
Bahamut, The Dreadwyrm*

Ravana, Wrath of the Colony
Bismark, Lord of the Mists
King Thordan and the Knights of the Round*
Sephirot the Fiend, Lord of Growth
Sophia the Goddess, Lady of Balance
Zurvan the Demon, Lord of Eternity
Alexander, Lord of Time

Susano, Lord of the Revel
Sri Lakshmi, Lady of Bliss
Shinryu, Lord of Destruction
Tsukuyomi, Lady of the Moon

Ratzon has a very watery animation, and the areas around Sephirot's arena gets filled up with some kind of liquid during the transition to the last phase. The only windy thing related to Sephirot is the Storm of Words add, but if we count that as a reason to determine his element, why would we not also use the Moon Gana to determine that Ravana is ice?

I think I figured that if Sephirot's battle is taking place inside the ARF, all the "water" around his arena was really due to all the Aetherochemical Spills around the ARF. And had nothing to do with Sephirot himself. It's kinda like how Sophia's battle takes place on an Allagan platform and Zurvan's battle starts with him in the Allagan containment facility.

My mind also went immediately to the idea of a bio-dome with the Ein Sof orbs and bio-domes are all about atmosphere control and stuff. And most plants are all about releasing gases (particularly Nitrogen and Oxygen) and pollen into the air for the most part. Sephirot's color scheme also made me think of it. Green is never used to represent water in the elements; it's always used to represent wind/air. Then there was also Sephirot's breath attack. If I were to say Ratzon represented anything, it would be sap dropping down on character.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

. Green is never used to represent water in the elements; it's always used to represent wind/air.

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That's not entirely true. Any color could be used to represent any element, as long as there is clarification as to why, within reason. Certain elements just have a color that is the most common to represent them, like red with fire, but blue could represent fire just as easily; in fact blue fire is hotter than red/orange. And green is not usually wind, infact the colors yellow and green usually alternate between wind/air and earth. But blue or white could also represent wind, and pink or brown earth. It all depends on the interpreter.

Just look at FFXIV for odd examples. Lightning is represented by purple, but the thunder line of spells are yellow and blue in color, with thunder iv finally getting some purple. The so called "water" spells we have in the cure line have a green aura to them. The icon for the spire card is yellow, and the arrow is a white/pale blue. Even other media has done this. Sailor Moon for example had Jupiter use green lightning, and Nepture's representative color was sea-green, not blue. The reason green would be chosen to represent water is if blue is taken by something else, like ice, which could also be represented by white. Most systems like these try not to overlap colors, by too much anyway. Green is used for water since we view green water as the ocean, instead of like a river or lake.

Not getting too into detail over any of the other primals, Sephirot is Earth/Water. Nothing in his fight alludes to wind, (storm of words doesn't count, as a storm is a mix of wind and water). But a combination of the arena, his attacks, and the fact that he is a tree, all signify water. A lot of his motif is also allusions to the actual sephirot/h, which deals with life and how it functions, its creation, knowledge, themes that are attributed to earth and water. Admittedly, the water aspect is there more in theme than execution, I think only 2 moves appear water based, but to that effect so is the earth aspect.

I kind of agree with the points of others here. The Elemental aspect of Primals is really only terribly important for the ARR primals, who actually do tend to follow that dynamic. Many of them don't really seem to follow or care about the elemental aspect at all. I think that part of this is because in 1.0 Primals were assumed to have very different lore attached to them, to the point that they seemed to be actual static entities in the lifestream rather than aetherial constructs. This started to change more in 2.0, especially with the remade Moggle Mog, which was our first implication that primals are based off of legends and aren't necessarily real gods. As time went on, it became increasingly clear that Primals are not some sort of aspected deities, but entities created off of beliefs and even feelings.

We've seen primals like Shiva and Thordan, who are mythologized versions of historical figures. It's unknown if the original Shiva had any connection to Ice at all, although her famed husband definitely does. We've seen primals like Alexander, who is based off of a Utopian ideal, or primals like Shinryu who is an abstract representation of rage. Some of them have vague (or not so vague) elemental theming, but it's really secondary or even irrelevant to their status as constructs of prayer and belief. Basically, whatever aspect they share honestly doesn't seem to matter much.

You probably don't even need to use Aether of a particular aspect to summon a specific primal. After all, Ysayle used the (presumably not water aspected) crystals of the Vath to summon Shiva with no problems. You can definitely guess at Elemental Aspects, but frankly they do not appear to matter at all.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

I kind of agree with the points of others here. The Elemental aspect of Primals is really only terribly important for the ARR primals, who actually do tend to follow that dynamic. Many of them don't really seem to follow or care about the elemental aspect at all. I think that part of this is because in 1.0 Primals were assumed to have very different lore attached to them, to the point that they seemed to be actual static entities in the lifestream rather than aetherial constructs. This started to change more in 2.0, especially with the remade Moggle Mog, which was our first implication that primals are based off of legends and aren't necessarily real gods. As time went on, it became increasingly clear that Primals are not some sort of aspected deities, but entities created off of beliefs and even feelings.

We've seen primals like Shiva and Thordan, who are mythologized versions of historical figures. It's unknown if the original Shiva had any connection to Ice at all, although her famed husband definitely does. We've seen primals like Alexander, who is based off of a Utopian ideal, or primals like Shinryu who is an abstract representation of rage. Some of them have vague (or not so vague) elemental theming, but it's really secondary or even irrelevant to their status as constructs of prayer and belief. Basically, whatever aspect they share honestly doesn't seem to matter much.

You probably don't even need to use Aether of a particular aspect to summon a specific primal. After all, Ysayle used the (presumably not water aspected) crystals of the Vath to summon Shiva with no problems. You can definitely guess at Elemental Aspects, but frankly they do not appear to matter at all.

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I think I read somewhere that the ARR primals (sans Moggle Mog) lining up with the six elements was a coincidence, and that may well be true considering Ifrit, Shiva, Leviathan, and Ramuh especially are all pretty iconic and recurring summons. Titan as Garuda too but I think I see them in less games.

For Shiva, I believe it was suggested in one of the lore books that her ice theming may have been borrowed from Halone worship, where she's one of the ice aspected gods. And that Ramuh worship likewise may have been based on Rhalgr, often depicted as an old man and with lightning element.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

For Shiva, I believe it was suggested in one of the lore books that her ice theming may have been borrowed from Halone worship, where she's one of the ice aspected gods. And that Ramuh worship likewise may have been based on Rhalgr, often depicted as an old man and with lightning element.

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I cant speak for Ramuh, though the Sylphs are lightning aspected creatures, so there is that. But as for Shiva, her ice aspect is a direct reference to Ysayle's past. It's one of the key hints about what the primals were at the time, besides the summoning itself. Everything about Shiva is a reference to something significant to Ysayle, the new Blue Magic skill acquired by Shiva even makes reference to this.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I cant speak for Ramuh, though the Sylphs are lightning aspected creatures, so there is that. But as for Shiva, her ice aspect is a direct reference to Ysayle's past. It's one of the key hints about what the primals were at the time, besides the summoning itself. Everything about Shiva is a reference to something significant to Ysayle, the new Blue Magic skill acquired by Shiva even makes reference to this.

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This was where I heard of the Halone link though it could be incomplete information or a false assumption.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Shiva

That information is pulled directly from Lore Book 1's entry on Shiva. It's in-universe speculation that Shiva's myths were probably influenced by Halone's myths during the thousand years after Shiva's death.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

This was where I heard of the Halone link though it could be incomplete information or a false assumption.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Shiva

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

That information is pulled directly from Lore Book 1's entry on Shiva. It's in-universe speculation that Shiva's myths were probably influenced by Halone's myths during the thousand years after Shiva's death.

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That's not inaccurate, but in this instance it's referring to Shiva the Saint not Shiva the Primal. It's not to say that neither Halone nor Saint Shiva weren't part of the equation, far from it. It's just to say that Ysayle and her past are more responsible for Primal Shiva's aspects, specifically cause she's the one to give form to the ideals of Halone and Saint Shiva.

In Japanese, Enkidu's title is 友神 (yuujin), which is a (truly reprehensible) pun on 友人 (yuujin), meaning friend. There's a list of ＿神 titles for all of them, actually. I think they showed it off at one of the anniversary broadcasts.

Starting with Ravana. they all have a Tertiary element. And some of them have elements that are not standard.

Tsukuyomi is Light AND Dark. Both related to the phase of the moon she is in.

Ravana's 3rd is Ice. The morphos cast ice spells.

Bismark's is Thunder.

Sephirot's Primary's are Earth and Wind. Water is his tertiary.
Sophia's Tertiary is Ice.

Lakashmi (who I spent a TON of time trying to figure out) is Fire, Light, and Water. It takes the extreme version to figure out her aspects.

Arguably, even the main 6 have low degrees of a 2nd element.

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

Starting with Ravana. they all have a Tertiary element. And some of them have elements that are not standard.

Tsukuyomi is Light AND Dark. Both related to the phase of the moon she is in.

Ravana's 3rd is Ice. The morphos cast ice spells.

Bismark's is Thunder.

Sephirot's Primary's are Earth and Wind. Water is his tertiary.
Sophia's Tertiary is Ice.

Lakashmi (who I spent a TON of time trying to figure out) is Fire, Light, and Water. It takes the extreme version to figure out her aspects.

Arguably, even the main 6 have low degrees of a 2nd element.

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How does Sophia have Ice as a tertiary element? Not saying it's wrong, just nothing in her fight seems to point to Ice.

As for Sephirot swap Wind and Water and you're good. And I'm not saying that just to say it, his attributes, theme, and lore all focus on earth and water. I mean he's a frickin tree. But wind could be a tertiary.

Doesn't Zurvan have one?

Curious how you got fire and water for Lakshmi. Not saying that's wrong, but her theme, lore, and attributes align more with fire and earth. Her being a goddess of wealth and prosperity through gemcraft.

Also why not list Susano's water and lightning, and dark? (Dark is not evil)

I have a more detailed explaination on this thread from a while back.
older thread

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Originally Posted by Eloah

How does Sophia have Ice as a tertiary element? Not saying it's wrong, just nothing in her fight seems to point to Ice.

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At least on Sophia Normal (I've never done EX), she drops an ice puddle right before the first platform tilt. It causes a fairly nasty Frostbite DoT.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

At least on Sophia Normal (I've never done EX), she drops an ice puddle right before the first platform tilt. It causes a fairly nasty Frostbite DoT.

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The ice puddle is from the lancer add.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

The ice puddle is from the lancer add.

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Hm, checking a video guide (why does FFXIV not have a repository of text-and-image guides), you're right. As Healer main, I mostly remembered trying to heal and rez people who got dragged through the ice puddle, and didn't actually notice where it came from.

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Originally Posted by YianKutku

At least on Sophia Normal (I've never done EX), she drops an ice puddle right before the first platform tilt. It causes a fairly nasty Frostbite DoT.

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Ah, I see where you're getting that. I think that is actually the add the drops that, the Third Demiurge I think, the lancer. But even if it is him, she summoned them, so by proximity I guess, lol.

The Demiurges are tempered Meradycians that the Allagan's kept in stasis. They functioned like the dragons in Dalamud until Sophia tempered one of the Garleans to let the Demiurges out. They probably know ice magic for the same reason we know ice magic.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

As for Sephirot swap Wind and Water and you're good. And I'm not saying that just to say it, his attributes, theme, and lore all focus on earth and water. I mean he's a frickin tree. But wind could be a tertiary.

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Even if you choose to disregard the color coding (almost universally, in this game, yellow/brown = earth, and green = wind), none of Sephy's green attacks look at all watery, unless you equate the green domes to bubbles. On the other hand, many of his green attacks look DISTINCTLY windy. As has been stated, Sephirot's attack names are not elementally inclined, but if you're going to shoehorn elements into Sephy's attacks, earth and wind are the most likely suspects, his nature as a tree be damned.

Sorry, but as much as I might wish it otherwise, the Warring Triad does not have an even distribution of elements. Drives the OCD haywire, I know, but folks just gotta learn to accept it!

Phoenix is a Primal we (I suppose not cannon if you dont do the coils) defeat in the Coils, yes?

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Originally Posted by Dreggit

Phoenix is a Primal we (I suppose not cannon if you dont do the coils) defeat in the Coils, yes?

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That is correct.

However, it bears mentioning that Louisoix-as-Phoenix is not THE legendary Phoenix. Much like Suzaku, his firebird form was patterned after a legend. In her case, it was her fervent wish to bring her deceased love back to life that caused Suzaku to gain the form and powers of the legend, and in Louisoix's case it was the prayers and wishes of the people for life and rebirth that shaped the Primal he became.

It's not known if the legend of the Phoenix stems from an actual creature lost to the mists of time, or whether it's simply a storytale, but it seems to be known the world over regardless!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Even if you choose to disregard the color coding (almost universally, in this game, yellow/brown = earth, and green = wind), none of Sephy's green attacks look at all watery, unless you equate the green domes to bubbles. On the other hand, many of his green attacks look DISTINCTLY windy. As has been stated, Sephirot's attack names are not elementally inclined, but if you're going to shoehorn elements into Sephy's attacks, earth and wind are the most likely suspects, his nature as a tree be damned.

Sorry, but as much as I might wish it otherwise, the Warring Triad does not have an even distribution of elements. Drives the OCD haywire, I know, but folks just gotta learn to accept it!

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I've given examples and explaination in several threads and don't wish to repeat myself; though no one seems to give a Wind example besides the Storm of Words attack, which is him talking. Some of his attacks have a fire animation, so is he Fire then too? Could we just agree he's Earth and not add a second element. And even then he's not earth in the sense as we know it he's an embodiment of nature, hence the green.

Also his nature as a tree is very significant considering that's the object that was worshipped to bring him into existance. The race that worshipped him was also tree-like. A great many references are to him being a tree. Heck, the unlock quest is called "When the Bough Wakes", a bough is the main branch of a tree.

There's been several examples given in many different directions regarding why people think Sephirot's elements are what they think they are. At this point, we're at the "agree to disagree" stage since there is very little hard canon info about Sephirot's elements. It's very subjective, except for the "Storm of the Words" attack.

I know I've checked out of this entire discussion since I ultimately disagree with the entire premise of it.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

There's been several examples given in many different directions regarding why people think Sephirot's elements are what they think they are. At this point, we're at the "agree to disagree" stage since there is very little hard canon info about Sephirot's elements. It's very subjective, except for the "Storm of the Words" attack.

I know I've checked out of this entire discussion since I ultimately disagree with the entire premise of it.

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I can agree to that. But the reason I mentioned Storm of Words isn't Wind based as many have claimed, it's him "talking", is because the name, like a lot of his attacks, is a religious reference. In this case it references a book.

Storm of Words

I'll admit it the title could seem very coincidental. But the fact that the book is about a restructuring of religion, with scientific bases, cannot be ignored. Since not only is Sephirot's fight heavily based on religion, but the entire Warring Triad lore.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

How does Sophia have Ice as a tertiary element? Not saying it's wrong, just nothing in her fight seems to point to Ice.

As for Sephirot swap Wind and Water and you're good. And I'm not saying that just to say it, his attributes, theme, and lore all focus on earth and water. I mean he's a frickin tree. But wind could be a tertiary.

Doesn't Zurvan have one?

Curious how you got fire and water for Lakshmi. Not saying that's wrong, but her theme, lore, and attributes align more with fire and earth. Her being a goddess of wealth and prosperity through gemcraft.

Also why not list Susano's water and lightning, and dark? (Dark is not evil)

I have a more detailed explaination on this thread from a while back.
older thread

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Sephirot has 1 water attack, and that's only used in phase 1. He has far more wind moves like his breath that pushes you back, and the ability that pops you into the air. Ratzon is his sole water move I believe. His colors based move is also wind (Green) and Earth (Yellow). Besides Storm of Words, he pushes you back using his breath, Malkuth. That's pretty windy. Ascension is the action after Storm of Words that shoots you into the air. Da'at in Hebrew means something about an empty state... which could imply a vacuum... which would be associated with air rushing in to fill the empty space. Trees in the Square Enix world also tend to be associated with wind, hence why wind is green.

One of the main waits you can derive tertiary elements is adds. The Ananta during the extreme phase cast water spells, while Water IIIs will occasionally rain down. Her other attacks, such as the one that leaves puddles, leaves a blue flame effect.

Sophia's Adds use Ice magic. Similar to Ravana's butterflies.

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

Sephirot has 1 water attack, and that's only used in phase 1. He has far more wind moves like his breath that pushes you back, and the ability that pops you into the air. Ratzon is his sole water move I believe. His colors based move is also wind (Green) and Earth (Yellow). Besides Storm of Words, he pushes you back using his breath, Malkuth. That's pretty windy. Ascension is the action after Storm of Words that shoots you into the air. Da'at in Hebrew means something about an empty state... which could imply a vacuum... which would be associated with air rushing in to fill the empty space. Trees in the Square Enix world also tend to be associated with wind, hence why wind is green.

One of the main waits you can derive tertiary elements is adds. The Ananta during the extreme phase cast water spells, while Water IIIs will occasionally rain down. Her other attacks, such as the one that leaves puddles, leaves a blue flame effect.

Sophia's Adds use Ice magic. Similar to Ravana's butterflies.

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First, thank you for giving a more detailed perspective on the wind debate, compared to most of the others I've seen.

Second, I owe you and anyone else who read one of my previous posts an apology. While there was no hostility in it, after rereading it, it could be percieved as such, an that was not my intention.

I still don't agree with Wind, since, in my opinion, more evidence seems to point towards water, but I am willing to agree to disagree. I'm tired of obsessing over it anyway; maybe now I can sleep.