So about maiming, striking and scouting.

Any particular reason to why melee DPS gear is split over 3 different armor sets?

Ok so DRG got more armor and NIN use DEX, but that extra armor might as well have been a trait for DRG, while DEX and STR have no effect on one another.

It does give us 2 more glamour sets... If only they hadn't been locked to their respective jobs.

All in all, the way it's done just seem redundant, Tanks, Ranged, Caster and Healer shares set, so why can't melee?

Here's my take on it.

1.Support-oriented melee DPS : DRG, NIN
Both have their own set, maiming and scouting.
Both share accessories with other types of DPS (DRG shares STR acc with MNK/SAM, NIN shares DEX acc with BRD/MCH)
Both are support-oriented. DRG with piercing debuff, Litany, etc. NIN with slashing debuff, TA, hate management skill, etc.

2.Damage-oriented melee DPS : MNK, SAM
Both use Striking set
Both use STR accessories.
Both significantly do more damage than support melee counterparts.

Then there's also a matter of aesthetics

As for why they decided to split them like this, my guess would be gear progression/distribution during early savage prog.

It lets the Devs tailor secondary stats (Crit etc) separately for the melee jobs, as well as keeping those jobs visually distinct for the most part. I know that MNK and SAM look the same, but they both look different to Dragoon etc.
Its not perfect, but it does indeed serve a purpose.

Secondary stats, that's probably the biggest reason they have different gear.

While Crit and Direct are good for every class, the need for either Determination or Speed depends on the class more...


But that could be done through other things like Materia...

It's kind of nice to not have to roll against anyone else for gear though if you play nin or drg.

my take is 1st secondary stats 2nd potential o have future jobs added later without reworking too much but right now yes its silly we have 2 jobs with 'unique' sets tailored to them

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Originally Posted by Sylve

It lets the Devs tailor secondary stats (Crit etc) separately for the melee jobs, as well as keeping those jobs visually distinct for the most part. I know that MNK and SAM look the same, but they both look different to Dragoon etc.
Its not perfect, but it does indeed serve a purpose.

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And secondary stats doesn't matter for Tanks, Ranged, Casters and Healer?

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

It's kind of nice to not have to roll against anyone else for gear though if you play nin or drg.

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Which also increases the situations where no one in the party needs it.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

And secondary stats doesn't matter for Tanks, Ranged, Casters and Healer?

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Tanks and healers generally use all the same stats, so yeah.
Ranged can easily get away with sharing secindary stats.
SMN and RDM are fine sharing gear.
Its only really BLM that can be the odd one out with much higher propency for spellspeed, so this is the only odd one out really, even though it is possible to play BLM well without all spellspeed if you know the fight well.

As for no one in the party needing it, people tend to play more than one job.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

And secondary stats doesn't matter for Tanks, Ranged, Casters and Healer?

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Ironically, no not really. The stats all work out the same effect for all 3. While yes, SCH does like crit a whole lot because of CritLo's, WHM gains as much of a benefit by letting Cure 2 crit as often as Adloq for essentially the same eHP (One restores, one prevents, end result = same healing applied). I don't do Savage Raiding, But its my understanding that if the Tank needed a Critlo to survive a Tank buster, something went wrong, lol.

But for a Monk and SAM who naturally get a lot of Skill Speed via their own buffs, So it doesn't need as strong a representation on their gear, while Dragoons who don't get a natural speed buff get more out of the skill speed that exists on their gear. Basically, Diminishing Returns if that makes sense.

Tanks and Casters both utilize all the substats found on their gear generally equally (Though i'd never put it past theorycrafters to determine that one substat is 1.2% more overall dps than another …)
Tanks especially, since their substats mainly give Damage Reductions or positively affect their own sustainability. Crit works for all 3, Clemency crits are great. Inner Beast/SP crits mean more HP, same with DRK and Souleater. Theres no real need to segment Tank gear and apply stats separately.
It all has near equal value and the jobs don't inherently do anything to devalue a substat the way MNK, NIN and SAM do with their Skill Speed buffs.

Materia as it currently stands on our gear is just a way to make very small gains on top of raw ilvl, since you can't stack Materia Melds if the stat you're trying to Meld in already exists to the capacity of that item. It allows for the min/max crowd to squeeze the most out of their gear.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

It's kind of nice to not have to roll against anyone else for gear though if you play nin or drg.

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Until you get the fabled 5-DRG raid party. I often saw NINs fight each other to the death while I, the single caster, got away with my loot comfortably. The only ones who are guaranteed no competition in most recent content are tanks, while healers are guaranteed competition in raid environments. Everyone else is up to luck.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

It lets the Devs tailor secondary stats (Crit etc) separately for the melee jobs, as well as keeping those jobs visually distinct for the most part. I know that MNK and SAM look the same, but they both look different to Dragoon etc.
Its not perfect, but it does indeed serve a purpose.

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Then why pair BLM with SMN and RDM?
Then why pair MCH with BRD?
they gear differently.

I think one thing being overlooked for DRG gear here is also the defense stats. I wasn't really paying attention through HW, so correct me if I'm wrong, but DRGs tend to have higher defense stats on their gear than other melee. Whether that's thematic or intentional or whatever, Idunno. But, given that, and how much of their gear through ARR was actually shared by tanks, I tend to look to DRGs as tank stand-ins if ever a tank decides to bail on a roulette or something.

But, as a mage, I guess I view all of you melee types as tank stand-ins in that situation. Just, y'know, gimme a couple seconds and try not to die while I incinerate.

NIN at least should be merged with MNK and SAM. DRG justifies visually distinct armor, but MNK and SAM and NIN all share similar eastern-themed lightly-armored aesthetics that can easily overlap for gear that isn't job-specific.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

I think one thing being overlooked for DRG gear here is also the defense stats. I wasn't really paying attention through HW, so correct me if I'm wrong, but DRGs tend to have higher defense stats on their gear than other melee. Whether that's thematic or intentional or whatever, Idunno. But, given that, and how much of their gear through ARR was actually shared by tanks, I tend to look to DRGs as tank stand-ins if ever a tank decides to bail on a roulette or something.

But, as a mage, I guess I view all of you melee types as tank stand-ins in that situation. Just, y'know, gimme a couple seconds and try not to die while I incinerate.

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Fun fact: The devs in ARR conceptualized dragoon as a melee class with higher-than-normal physical defense and lower-than-normal magic defense, in order to maintain a sense of "balance".

Then they introduced the first set of raids, with area-wide high potency magic attacks as part of the boss rotations. Attacks that, due to lower magic defense, would instantly vaporize any dragoon from full health that didn't have direct special protections like Adloquium or Keen Flurry applied before the damage hit.

You can imagine this got changed pretty quickly.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

Fun fact: The devs in ARR conceptualized dragoon as a melee class with higher-than-normal physical defense and lower-than-normal magic defense, in order to maintain a sense of "balance".

Then they introduced the first set of raids, with area-wide high potency magic attacks as part of the boss rotations. Attacks that, due to lower magic defense, would instantly vaporize any dragoon from full health that didn't have direct special protections like Adloquium or Keen Flurry applied before the damage hit.

You can imagine this got changed pretty quickly.

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you say quickly took to last set of raids where it was the most agrevious for them to change it so only 1.5 yrs :P

because dragoon is meant to wear heavier looking armour meanwhile mnk/sam/nin are supposedly meant to wear light armour... plus what the devs do not want a third main stat because, i dunno, to avoid make what mnk/sam/nin has a edge on damage?(i know, currently having dex on a str job does not benefit you at all, and same the reverse for nin jobs)
watever the reason why nin armor are split from mnk/sam will likely to be ridiculous

As caster I wish I could get multiple sets. Having to kill my spell speed for smn/rdm sucks. Also having one gear looks wise for 6 jobs kind of sucks, since caster/healer tend to be direct colour swaps.

I just started leveling melee and ranged dps around SB and I found it odd too what with scouting and ranged being both dex and maiming and striking both being str based.

The truth is, it's all about how the gear looks. They want DRG in more armor and NIn in less.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

The truth is, it's all about how the gear looks. They want DRG in more armor and NIn in less.

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That's one reason why I feel like it'd make more sense just to have Ninjas wear the Aiming gear that Bards and Machinists work with.

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Originally Posted by Turnipsi

Also having one gear looks wise for 6 jobs kind of sucks, since caster/healer tend to be direct colour swaps.

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That's what glamours are for? Just because caster/healer costumes are the same in each tier, doesn't mean you have to visibly wear those matching sets.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

That's one reason why I feel like it'd make more sense just to have Ninjas wear the Aiming gear that Bards and Machinists work with.

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That would make sense if they wanted to cut down on the number of sets. They do already share Aiming accessories.

Although if they don't plan on cutting down on the number of sets, I'd like to see the accessories renamed to reflect that they cover multiple sets, like the Slaying ones that don't correspond to a single set but are shared by the other two melee DPSes.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Any particular reason to why melee DPS gear is split over 3 different armor sets?

Ok so DRG got more armor and NIN use DEX, but that extra armor might as well have been a trait for DRG, while DEX and STR have no effect on one another.

It does give us 2 more glamour sets... If only they hadn't been locked to their respective jobs.

All in all, the way it's done just seem redundant, Tanks, Ranged, Caster and Healer shares set, so why can't melee?

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DRG, MNK and SAM should all share Striking.

NIN, BRD and MCH should all share Scouting.

IMHO.

Step it back to their base classes, MMO stereotypes and lore reasons:

Nin + Bard / Rogue + Archer = your MMO leather scout classes depending on whether you like stabbing or pew pew. MCH, which was added with HW, simply got lumped with Bard gear for simplicity.

Dragoons / lancers = your MMO not quite a tank plate wearing DPS.

Pugs (hue) / MNK = your naked or sometimes clothe wearing MMO fist fighter.

To ensure they can have their stats optimized or screwed over for each new tier separately... to an extent.

Monks dislike heavy Skill Speed; SAM gets good use from it. A match made in heaven, no?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To ensure they can have their stats optimized or screwed over for each new tier separately... to an extent.

Monks dislike heavy Skill Speed; SAM gets good use from it. A match made in heaven, no?

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ikr makes the blm and smn jealous as the new couple fight as much as they do :rolleyes:

At this point, DRG should, from a mechanical perspective, be merged in with MNK and SAM. The job already has more HP than the other two at the same VIT level and as was stated, the higher physical defense is a remnant of 2.0 where DRG had higher physical and lower magical defense compared to it's melee counterpart, MNK. At this point the magical defense has been normalized between the two jobs leaving the only difference between the two the level of physical defense.

Additionally, you could merge NIN gear in with BRD and MCH as all use DEX as a main stat. I believe previously the aiming gear had lower defensive stats than the scouting gear, but that's also no longer the case.

I get the argument regarding allowing the developers to create unique aesthetics for the jobs being the reason they're separate, but let's be honest. How often do they actually do this verses how often are the striking and scouting gear color swaps of each other, same with the aiming and scouting, or fending and maiming... they often create fewer distinct models than classes of armor already. The job-specific armor can still function to provide a unique look for the individual jobs.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I get the argument regarding allowing the developers to create unique aesthetics for the jobs being the reason they're separate, but let's be honest. How often do they actually do this verses how often are the striking and scouting gear color swaps of each other, same with the aiming and scouting, or fending and maiming... they often create fewer distinct models than classes of armor already. The job-specific armor can still function to provide a unique look for the individual jobs.

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In terms of appearance, they basically make 3 types of "physical" armor: heavy, medium and light, and 1 type of robe (it comes in white and black versions) for all the magic casters.

Dragoon and Ninja don't really have a unique look, just Dragoon can look more like a tank because maiming is sometimes made from recoloured fending gear instead of striking, and Ninja is the same thing, just with striking and aiming swapped about instead.

Essentially, I agree :)

Make sam and drg share.
Make monk and nin share, again.
Problem solved, sam never should have been forced to wear bathrobes, I would have preferred the choice between armors and clothes, but yoshi didn't want to give it to us and forced monk trash on them.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Make sam and drg share.
Make monk and nin share, again.
Problem solved, sam never should have been forced to wear bathrobes, I would have preferred the choice between armors and clothes, but yoshi didn't want to give it to us and forced monk trash on them.

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Monk and ninja sharing doesn't really make sense as the two jobs need different main stats. Monk is strength based and ninja is dexterity based, and it doesn't really make sense to have both main stats on a piece of gear just to have them be shared. It made sense when the job was released in ARR because it was either create an entirely new armor set for the job going all the way back to level 1 (since aiming gear had lower defenses at the time) or add the stat to the existing monk sets and seperate the two later (something they already did with casting sets at the time having both intellegence and mind at lower levels)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's what glamours are for? Just because caster/healer costumes are the same in each tier, doesn't mean you have to visibly wear those matching set.

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Ok, let's explain it this way. Instead of getting 3-4 glams across my jobs in a patch, I get 1. I do know how glams work, I'm complaining about number of them comparatively. Like, they're not even shared gear to save space/currency needed at least. Just black/white version of same one I buy twice.

I do see some more melees could also be combined similarly, since gear anymore rarely actually relates to that jobs looks. We usually have raid/tome to make stat mixing have two options, but not sure if that'd be adequate

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Monk and ninja sharing doesn't really make sense as the two jobs need different main stats. Monk is strength based and ninja is dexterity based, and it doesn't really make sense to have both main stats on a piece of gear just to have them be shared. It made sense when the job was released in ARR because it was either create an entirely new armor set for the job going all the way back to level 1 (since aiming gear had lower defences at the time) or add the stat to the existing monk sets and seperate the two later (something they already did with casting sets at the time having both intelligence and mind at lower levels)

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Seeing how main stats don't influence each other would mean that there is not really any reason to not allow both str and dex be on the same gear. Thinking about it, the main stat in itself is kind of pointless since gear already got another main stat namely ilvl.

The only answer I have is aesthetic reasons, and maybe because of stats distribution, but mostly aesthetic reasons. I remember NIN used to share gear with BRD back in ARR and everybody used to say aiming gear looked stupid on ninjas. Dragoons are known throughout the franchise to be a heavy armor wielder, so it makes sense that they have their own gear that resembles the one of a tank so much. Same applies for MNK and NIN. Though to me it would have been better if SAM used the same gear as NIN and maybe scaled off DEX. That way the excuse could be that different types of damage (slash, blunt, piercing) uses different labeled sets (maiming, striking, scouting). But oh well.

Edit: To add to it now that I think about it, it's also probably to make people sink more time into the game. If all 4 melee dps used the same gear it would take you 1/3 of the time it usually takes to gear all of em to ilvl cap.

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Originally Posted by DevilsDontFly

The only answer I have is aesthetic reasons, and maybe because of stats distribution, but mostly aesthetic reasons. I remember NIN used to share gear with BRD back in ARR and everybody used to say aiming gear looked stupid on ninjas. Dragoons are known throughout the franchise to be a heavy armor wielder, so it makes sense that they have their own gear that resembles the one of a tank so much. Same applies for MNK and NIN. Though to me it would have been better if SAM used the same gear as NIN and maybe scaled off DEX. That way the excuse could be that different types of damage (slash, blunt, piercing) uses different labeled sets (maiming, striking, scouting). But oh well.

Edit: To add to it now that I think about it, it's also probably to make people sink more time into the game. If all 4 melee dps used the same gear it would take you 1/3 of the time it usually takes to gear all of em to ilvl cap.

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Well Samurai is often depicted in light clothing or full armor so aesthetically they could fit both DRG and MNK/NIN, both MNK and NIN wear light clothing so they could have used the same, leaving DRG with mostly heavy armor, though there is still the occasional set that shares it's look with MNK, then there is NIN which also often end up with the heavier looking armor worn by BRD/MCH...

Really, even aesthetics isn't a good explanation for it to be 3 different sets for melee dps.

Dragoon should be DEX based, not STR.

Yeah, they seem strong to wear their chainmails, but honestly, they are actually very light to allow jump, and what they trully need, is to land prisise strikes, the strenght of them comes mostly from their weight and fall innertia, something that some movements translate very well too through it's animations (Disembowel particulary).

Scouting and Maiming should be DEX, maybe remove Scouting and join both NIN and DRG under the Maiming - Maiming implies carefully yet critical damage, like precisely cutting an enemy or impaling him on vital points.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Seeing how main stats don't influence each other would mean that there is not really any reason to not allow both str and dex be on the same gear. Thinking about it, the main stat in itself is kind of pointless since gear already got another main stat namely ilvl.

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Now you're really starting to fall deep down the rabbit hole.

I've seen this argument come up previously, and, honestly, it makes a certain bit of sense. It doesn't even need to be connected to ilvl, just merge str and dex into the same stat. Call it Power or whatever you like. The point being, as you've realized, str and dex are mutually exclusive. Jobs that benefit from one gain nothing from the other. There is, effectively, no reason to differentiate them. You can even go a step further and merge it all with int and mind as well for the same reasons. Reduce 4 stats down to 1, because all that's really important is the number; what you call it is less important.

But, truthfully, for any rpg, cutting down stats like that does also make it look maybe a little more bland and generic. While the stats all do the same thing, it's still kinda important to keep them separate just for the sake of the game's atmosphere or ambiance or something. Basically, they're different because being the same would just look boring.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Now you're really starting to fall deep down the rabbit hole.

I've seen this argument come up previously, and, honestly, it makes a certain bit of sense. It doesn't even need to be connected to ilvl, just merge str and dex into the same stat. Call it Power or whatever you like. The point being, as you've realized, str and dex are mutually exclusive. Jobs that benefit from one gain nothing from the other. There is, effectively, no reason to differentiate them. You can even go a step further and merge it all with int and mind as well for the same reasons. Reduce 4 stats down to 1, because all that's really important is the number; what you call it is less important.

But, truthfully, for any rpg, cutting down stats like that does also make it look maybe a little more bland and generic. While the stats all do the same thing, it's still kinda important to keep them separate just for the sake of the game's atmosphere or ambiance or something. Basically, they're different because being the same would just look boring.

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This. And for all we know all items past a given ilvl might not carry any data for primary stats, but instead just look at the gear class and the ilvl. If the code is already effectively as simple as that, there's no reason to strip yet one more RPG element from the game.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Now you're really starting to fall deep down the rabbit hole.

I've seen this argument come up previously, and, honestly, it makes a certain bit of sense. It doesn't even need to be connected to ilvl, just merge str and dex into the same stat. Call it Power or whatever you like. The point being, as you've realized, str and dex are mutually exclusive. Jobs that benefit from one gain nothing from the other. There is, effectively, no reason to differentiate them. You can even go a step further and merge it all with int and mind as well for the same reasons. Reduce 4 stats down to 1, because all that's really important is the number; what you call it is less important.

But, truthfully, for any rpg, cutting down stats like that does also make it look maybe a little more bland and generic. While the stats all do the same thing, it's still kinda important to keep them separate just for the sake of the game's atmosphere or ambiance or something. Basically, they're different because being the same would just look boring.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This. And for all we know all items past a given ilvl might not carry any data for primary stats, but instead just look at the gear class and the ilvl. If the code is already effectively as simple as that, there's no reason to strip yet one more RPG element from the game.

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I would believe you both if at this point. Stats had any meaning really.

When was the last time someone actually looked at their gear -outside serious raid environment- and considered the stat weights? I think that stopped happening like at the start of 3.0 and going on.

At this point the only real relevant stat is indeed item level. Followed by Attack on weapon. After that, meh, try to not have too much or too little SS and we are just ok, might make a dungeon or whatnot a few minutes faster having the right stat weight, is not like there are deep mechanics involving them anyway.

Welcome to Powercreep. Where the creep is so high, stats themselves are being delegated into irrelevancy. At this point there are more instances with different stats and progression systems than dungeons/raids/trials (honestly at this point, we only have dungeons AND trials)

Those stats and resistances on the character window have a single name: UI clutter and apparent depth. This aint no Dark Souls, not even a single player FF. Aint no Ragnarok Online, you people talking about stats here!

Is just XIV, get whatever is high now like, 390? idk, idc, and grab it while it's hot, next expansion everything is gonna be worthless again. Might help some get a bit more of performance out of the first 2 or so dungeons, huge... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This. And for all we know all items past a given ilvl might not carry any data for primary stats, but instead just look at the gear class and the ilvl. If the code is already effectively as simple as that, there's no reason to strip yet one more RPG element from the game.

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Apart from said element being pretty pointless and potentially misleading.

I'm almost at the point of thinking they should just embrace how simple most gear in this game is and move what little customization aspects exist there elsewhere.