DPS Job Rankings & Stats

I played a few years back, never getting much past starting HW content. I started again recently and have hit 70 w/a DPS class and thus "end game."

One area I'm looking for clarification on is parsing. Before going further, please note:

• This post is not about whether parsing should be allowed.
• This post is not me worried about "getting caught." (N/A on PS4).
• This post is not about me accusing people that use parsers.

I posted a similar thread on an external forum some time back and was flamed more than a triple cast fire IV sitting on ley-lines with The Spear. I'm not against parsing. I understand we can all "get away with it." No fight club meme here. That's not what this post is about.

When I played years ago I was in a guild. That guild starting talking about parsing. I looked it up and found it was against the TOS and cheating. I felt guilty by association so left the guild. Some time after, I stopped playing because going solo is dull.

This time around, I figured I'm on a PS4 so it isn't something to be concerned about. Big nope there. The official forums here are full of parsing references and rankings. I can't do simple browsing without seeing that FSH ranks higher than CUL in DPS and CRP is at the bottom. Fishing poles are deadly.

In game, I'm sure if I join a guild, they'll talk about who parses what. I'm sure that if I participate in a raid, it'll be brought up and used. There is no way I can reasonably play this game and avoid it. I already know which DPS ranks higher because GoogleSo, if it is considered cheating by SE, and I cannot avoid it, does this mean that I'm guilty by association? Even the new player guides are based on parsing results. Avoidance is not realistic. I've tried!

So with the above said:

• If I join a guild and the use parsing, am I obliged to report it?
• Can I do raids with others that parse?
• Am I allowed to look at guides, rotations and discussions based on parsing on the official forum and elsewhere?

To sum up, I feel that parsing is an integral part of any MMO but I will never do it because if I play a game, I want to abide by the TOS and not cheat, even if I strongly disagree that it is "cheating."

However, I cannot avoid the issue and enjoy end game and a guild. I already have a head filled of parsing because if simple google searches and here in FFXIV managed forums.

So, am I guilt by association? I don't feel like paying SE money if they consider me to be breaking the ToS and they themselves do not honor it. I love playing this game, but am getting tired of the personal feeling of guilt by knowledge and association.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by persist4647

So, am I guilt by association? I don't feel like paying SE money if they consider me to be breaking the ToS and they themselves do not honor it. I love playing this game, but am getting tired of the personal feeling of guilt by knowledge and association.

---

You're really overdramatizing everything, let's simplify.

If someone harassed you report them for it. You can report the harrassment of others too but it generally goes without any action taken.

SE is very aware that people parse and they seem to have enacted a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy surrounding it. Popular streamers parse openly and talk directly about it and nothing happens to them. The issue that will actually see direct action is using information gleaned from a parser to harass or insult another player. If you or your FC-to-be aren't doing that there is no reason to believe you'll see any consequence.

Basically - chill out, you're fine.

"If I join a guild and the use parsing, am I obliged to report it?"
Yes, but they will eventually figure out its you, and you will be trapped in a cycle like that forever.
"Can I do raids with others that parse?"
No, that makes you a cheater by association and you should feel bad about it.
"Am I allowed to look at guides, rotations and discussions based on parsing on the official forum and elsewhere?"
No, because it was acquired through illegal means, meaning using them is against ToS and you should feel bad.

I think I can connect to this "external forum" you have posted since I vaguely remember a thread very, very, similar to this, and if you happen to be the same guy I just don't understand why you didn't read the responses because those explained everything pretty well.

Let's start with simple thing, and keep this in mind: "Why would I care? Why would anyone else's doings affect me?"

Someone runs a parser in raids because he has very high drive to improve himself (because he enjoys it), he doesn't harass anyone else over it, mostly keeps the information to himself and at the end of the day to him it's just visualization of how he has improved over time.
So OP, based on that what description, would you see any reason to ban him? Would you also ban his close friend who plays on PS4 (aka. doesn't have a ACT)? You probably wouldn't, and SE definitely doesn't.

Now here's the thing: Absolutely no one ever has been banned for USING a parser. People, however, have been banned for HARASSING other people over their performance and the key word here is "harassment" because there is no difference in harassing people over their numbers and telling them to harm themselves in terms of what you get as a punishment.
People openly use ACT during streams and SE has done 0 anything even though they follow stuff like Savage/Ultimate world race so they are absolutely bound to see people use it openly. They know about it and do nothing, take that how you will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Baalfrog

"If I join a guild and the use parsing, am I obliged to report it?"
Yes, but they will eventually figure out its you, and you will be trapped in a cycle like that forever.
"Can I do raids with others that parse?"
No, that makes you a cheater by association and you should feel bad about it.
"Am I allowed to look at guides, rotations and discussions based on parsing on the official forum and elsewhere?"
No, because it was acquired through illegal means, meaning using them is against ToS and you should feel bad.

---

To add to this, if you've ever potentially played with someone who uses a parser you must buy 3 Moogles off the mogstation and chant 3 Hail Yoshidas as penance for your sins.

Quote:

---

• If I join a guild and the use parsing, am I obliged to report it?

---

If you were at a family christmas party and the host gave an underage niece/nephew a sip of champagne would you feel obligated to call the cops and child protective services?

Quote:

---

• Am I allowed to look at guides, rotations and discussions based on parsing on the official forum and elsewhere?

---

I dont know what youve heard, but SE doesnt employ thought police.

With that said, someone who would post something like this is either super-overthinking it(and unbelievably naive) or a troll.

Parsers are probably the only thing that make Savage and Ultimate runs possible...

ACT is there so that people can get their ACT together, so that they can contribute towards quick and smooth runs, whether it's dungeons or otherwise.

I feel harassed (!) from SE for not giving me a personal parser (that only shows my dps) .. as a PS4 player..!!!

instead of wasting money on a app noone is using, SE should have invested in a more stable and customisable parser for all

(like "can get the parser for free for pc or ps4 player from mog-station, when you buy anything from the mog-station for a minimum of 5 or 10$")

Parsers aren't against ToS.

Only harassing baddies solely due to their output acquired from a parser is against ToS.

They would have to ban 80% of people who do savage if they banned you for having a parser.

Even the devs play with parsers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

Parsers aren't against ToS.

---

Actually, yes they are.

FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement:
"2.5 Data Mining.
You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorised third party software."

That SE mostly do not care if people are using parsers is another matter. They are still against the rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Actually, yes they are.

FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement:
"2.5 Data Mining.
You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorised third party software."

That SE mostly do not care if people are using parsers is another matter. They are still against the rules.

---

Being that the data it uses is already directly available to you without any 3rd party program, this data is not being collected. You are not breaking through the game to find and collect data that isn't put into your logs.

Thus the program is not intercepting, mining, or collecting information. It's information you already have stored being used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

Being that the data it uses is already directly available to you without any 3rd party program, this data is not being collected. You are not breaking through the game to find and collect data that isn't put into your logs.

Thus the program is not intercepting, mining, or collecting information. It's information you already have stored being used.

---

The most common parser actually does a lot more than just reads the chat log and is most definitely against the ToS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitfox

The most common parser actually does a lot more than just reads the chat log and is most definitely against the ToS.

---

It uses the log that the game itself stores in your documents. It's nothing you couldn't do on your own, it only does it in live time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

It uses the log that the game itself stores in your documents. It's nothing you couldn't do on your own, it only does it in live time.

---

This is entirely false. It's reading game memory for the in-game chat log while also looking at network packet data.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nemekh

This is entirely false. It's reading game memory for the in-game chat log while also looking at network packet data.

---

I'd heard otherwise somewhere, but I know you actually work in that so I believe you. But what data does it obtain that isn't actually available to the player? Granted it obtains the data in a much more direct fashion, but it seems like information relayed to the player either way. excluding what various other pluggins can make it do.

I can't really go into specific depth and detail, however, net data sent to the client contains information that isn't necessarily used nor rendered (especially numerically) by the client in any fashion. In particular for snapshots of actions and statuses including actor source, target actor and attributes of what's about to be done. It's the basis behind how triggers using net data work and how things can be discerned well in advance before a mechanic needs to be resolved correctly because the message is sent before things are actually confirmed in-game by the server and client.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

Being that the data it uses is already directly available to you without any 3rd party program, this data is not being collected. You are not breaking through the game to find and collect data that isn't put into your logs.

Thus the program is not intercepting, mining, or collecting information. It's information you already have stored being used.

---

It doesn't matter how it collects the data. Even if it is collecting the data by reading the chat log, it is still collecting data and hence not allowed according to SE's rules.

than SE should just make a ffffing parser, more legal, more stable, more custumable and especially also for PS4 (!) players...

and SE can have its own legal SE fflogs site (with more aesthetics than the usual fflogs),.. where you can upload only your personal dps logs, OR full party logs, only (!) if every one in the group give they're consent

SE can make them for free (just buy something from the mog-station for a minum of 5$ and get the "personal dps parser"; buy for 10$ and get a "party dps parser"..)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiroe

SE can make them for free (just buy something from the mog-station for a minum of 5$ and get the "personal dps parser"; buy for 10$ and get a "party dps parser"..)

---

SE now sees the free money opportunity, it'll be on mogstation in a week. $30 to have your dps hidden from other's premium party dps tracker.

If there are one or two players in an EX primal group who are severely under performing, it would be incredibly difficult to tell why those adds aren't dying fast enough, or why we just can't to seem to beat this enrage timer if it wasn't for a parser. While we do have Stone, Sky, Sea, it's an incredibly unhelpful tool for gauging raid performance, and it's not even mandatory.

So yeah, people might get kicked from an EX primal group because someone using a parser was able to see they aren't carrying their weight, but what else are we supposed to do? Carry them?


But to stay on topic: Don't worry about people who use parser unless they downright insult you. They may tell you that you have to be replaced because your DPS is half of that of the other DPS and so you don't make the cut, which is not harassment since you can't really expect anyone to carry you as it wouldn't be fair towards everyone else in the group.

There's nothing wrong with the tool, it can't hurt you, just the people who use it can.

The "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy that someone mentioned here isn't written in stone, but it's more or less a moral that everyone has to follow when using Parsers.

We would've seen plenty of good people banned from FFXIV, especially streamers, if parsers were a bannable offense outright in the early days such as in Gordias where DPS checks were through the wazoo. The only thing that I think is right(which may not be seen as right by others) is that people should be free to use their parser, but need to not discriminate, harass, or deface others in doing so by gaining that information. As long as it's used for the right purposes(further improvement of yourself, the raid group, or simply for logs purposes) I don't think SE's going to super crackdown on it like some other games that I know have been cracking down on emulators.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Parsers are probably the only thing that make Savage and Ultimate runs possible....

---

are u serious?... what kind of statement is that? Our fc run Midas (with 2 smns & 2 drks btw) without any pc player so uhm no - parsers and meta-comp are definitely not needed to run savage successfully. Its helpful for those who want to optimize or those who need to put their big balls on the table - but telling someone its the only tool which make savage possible is just... lol?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neela

are u serious?... what kind of statement is that? Our fc run Midas (with 2 smns & 2 drks btw) without any pc player so uhm no - parsers and meta-comp are definitely not needed to run savage successfully. Its helpful for those who want to optimize or those who need to put their big balls on the table - but telling someone its the only tool which make savage possible is just... lol?

---

Did you use any guides at any point? Because the people who made them used parsers to get that information for you faster on a fight.

Be it tank busters/raid wide damage values and type to know which cds work/are needed, or even if it's just better job rotations and stat prioritization for output.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

Did you use any guides at any point? Because the people who made them used parsers to get that information for you faster on a fight.

Be it tank busters/raid wide damage values and type to know which cds work/are needed, or even if it's just better job rotations and stat prioritization for output.

---

During first week parsers usually not even work, but still ppl manage figure out mechanics, clear content and make guides from it before parsers get fixed. You dont really need parser for clearing content, it is more like optimizing content.

What she said - u don’t need data to find out mechanics. We actually always start without guides even if we need much longer than others. But for us it’s about challenging ourselves instead copying worlds firsts - isn’t it what savage is all about? And therefor u don’t need unintended 3rd party-tools - simply try and error. So we do use parsers after we clear a tier yeah but we do not use it through progression. In the end all u need to know about savage is "aoe & tankbuster are bad" - and until a parser can tell u which direction is the best to avoid, your statement remains false to me.

U don’t need parsers for new ex primals, do u? Why should u.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neela

What she said - u don’t need data to find out mechanics. We actually always start without guides even if we need much longer than others. But for us it’s about challenging ourselves instead copying worlds firsts - isn’t it what savage is all about? And therefor u don’t need unintended 3rd party-tools - simply try and error. So we do use parsers after we clear a tier yeah but we do not use it through progression. In the end all u need to know about savage is "aoe & tankbuster are bad" - and until a parser can tell u which direction is the best to avoid, your statement remains false to me.

U don’t need parsers for new ex primals, do u? Why should u.

---

More for damage optimization than anything else. You know those times you wiped to enrage at <1%? Or you were half a second from pushing a mechanic that would make it easier for the party? I view it as a personal failure, if it was possible for you to have been doing better enough to fix it. It's not only your time you wasted. It's 7 other people's time. I don't enjoy that feeling.

Sure, it's everyone's responsibility to do well, but it's harder to control their output than your own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

More for damage optimization than anything else.

---

You do not need parsers for damage optimization. Sure, a parser can help for that, but it is not needed.

Before raid tier starts, people have already figured out best openers and optimal rotations thanks to theory crafting and help of ACT (Parse). Even if ACT stops parsing during the first couple of days of raid, it doesn’t matter much because people have the information they need already.

Once parse is up again, people will use it to figure out few things that they had doubts about. Totally not needed because they have already cleaned content with minimum item level.

ACT is not only used for parsing, it can do much more than that. Just because parae is not working, it does not make ACT useless during the first couple days of raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zerathor

More for damage optimization than anything else. You know those times you wiped to enrage at <1%? Or you were half a second from pushing a mechanic that would make it easier for the party? I view it as a personal failure, if it was possible for you to have been doing better enough to fix it. It's not only your time you wasted. It's 7 other people's time. I don't enjoy that feeling.

Sure, it's everyone's responsibility to do well, but it's harder to control their output than your own.

---

I view copying the worlds first like brain dead lemmings as a failure - and like I said I waste noones time cause my static think the same way: we do it our way. Cause the feeling if you (by yourself and your friends) figure out how to handle mechanics or clear a tier on your own is the best feeling in the world...and absolut worth it. A feeling you actually can't enjoy if you camp Mr.Happy & Co on youtube for the first week after patch until they wrote their guides – If you like to rely on world firsts guides and data to actually have any progress in savage at all - you are the one I pity pretty much... : /

Btw: doing better =/= copying someone who starts with try & error as well. -> Its more like you are just damn lazy, waiting for someone else to do the work - just to jump on given strategies to lecture people how they should play savage content? Its also funny to see, how the argument from "parsers ARE DEFINITELY NEEDED for savage" changed to "for optimizing purpose" - what I actually said in the very first post. So I guess you are out of arguments hm?...

nvm everybody should do it his/her way - if being brain dead is yours, enjoy it but don't claim it as "the only way to go" : o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neela

I view copying the worlds first like brain dead lemmings as a failure - and like I said I waste noones time cause my static think the same way: we do it our way. Cause the feeling if you (by yourself and your friends) figure out how to handle mechanics or clear a tier on your own is the best feeling in the world...and absolut worth it. A feeling you actually can't enjoy if you camp Mr.Happy & Co on youtube for the first week after patch until they wrote their guides – If you like to rely on world firsts guides and data to actually have any progress in savage at all - you are the one I pity pretty much... : /

Btw: doing better =/= copying someone who starts with try & error as well. -> Its more like you are just damn lazy, waiting for someone else to do the work - just to jump on given strategies to lecture people how they should play savage content? Its also funny to see, how the argument from "parsers ARE DEFINITELY NEEDED for savage" changed to "for optimizing purpose" - what I actually said in the very first post. So I guess you are out of arguments hm?...

nvm everybody should do it his/her way - if being brain dead is yours, enjoy it but don't claim it as "the only way to go" : o

---

Thinly veiled insults only hold so much weight when there's no progress to back it up.

Everyone blind progs week one, and blind prog can be fun the whole patch if the entire group is up for it, the group has bountiful time in the week, and capable of doing it. Finding statics that want to keep going blind past week 3 are rather rare however.

Also, I don't think there's a single fight we didn't build our own unique strategy on aside from HW1 and HW2. So I'm not quite sure where you place your assumptions that playing your job the correct way is "brain dead".

But I suppose reading information isn't your strong suit considering the post you referred to was from a different poster, hmm?
: o

But nvm everybody should do it his/her way- if willingly playing wrong is what yours, enjoy it. But don't LARP that you're not using parses or at least reading your friends when you made an account to join your static on fflogs.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Alas not everyone has a static ; for people going in PF, it is useful to know quickly if you're wasting your time cause you're about to hit enrage everytime. Sometimes failure isn't visible at naked eye.

Let's say for instance. You miraculously find a team that does mechanics approximately ok (trust me it's a miracle, mechanic dealing in so called "kill groups" is a complete lie). So you have a CHANCE at killing. One DPS is pulling a 4k. 6k is required for each DPS, with tanks doing 4k and heals doing 2k.

No way 2k can be caught up by the other 7. Well you are bound to hit enrage. Knowing that, will you happily spend 3 hours knowing perfectly it won't lead anywhere ? I will not. When you reach kill level (mechanically) in hours, you don't want to be spending 3 hours in vain again, and again, and again, that adds up to 2-3 weeks later, still not down, all while you know the fight after a timer (thinking of O9S). Someone not going in PF cannot understand the pain of this "roulette". I'm no top player, YET I felt that pain.

Now there are people who will trash talk, or shame and replace and I am absolutely opposed to that. But seeing that, you can just politely walk out of there and not waste 3 hours. And I'm saying that knowing sometimes it will be me the deadweight. If we wipe at 2% and nobody died and I'm under them, I'm the one wasting 7 people time.

So indeed it is absolutely not needed to kill, but it helps a great deal analyzing what goes wrong.Or say if your group is just missing 800 rDPS then watching some logs can help you know how they maintain better uptime than you.

actually I said its for optimizing in my first post - dunno why you try to explain optimizing if that wasn't even the topic. i just said u do not need a parser for clearing savage - and that is after all argumentation still true. I also never said it wouldn't make things easier but that is I complete different topic.

So why still talking around the bush? If it doesn't change anything? ^^

Savage and ultimate at thought out ilvl won't go down without some serious mastery of class.

I am honestly thinking that since most people know their class through guides, and guides are made with parsing to see what's more efficient...the "need" part is indirect, but it's here in some form, like a lurking shadow you see ? You don't personnally need one with you in O9S but you use a rotation that maxes out damage output and that rotation was laid down using parsing tools (or even calculators and simulators which are the same idea but not live).

I don't know if you see what I mean, I'm not saying for instance a group can't kill without a parser active ("what, ACT not on ? huhuh kill denied"). Just that they play their class in a way that's been found effective with parsing. Maybe it was said with that in mind, and everyone took I-don't-remember-the-name's words too literally.

how do u come to the conclusion that all people copy rotations as well?
just because speedrunners/hardcore raiders do so?

There is a huge amount of player who don't care the forum, balance discord or fflogs at all - so there are enough player who haven't seen a given rotation or ex-primal/savage guide in their life at all. It's just not true that there is content which isn't solvable without an unintended 3rd party tool. Even ultimate is clearable without ACT - it just need way more effort, try & error and motivation than without a data-tool - but its still manageable. So no ACT is not needed for anything other than optimizing.

Clearly the statement "ACT is directly needed for the kill" is false, that's not what I'm arguing about. But I'd point out that it rather is "ACT is needed to know you actually were useful in that kill".
A lot of people don't take satisfaction in killing if they're weren't helpful so to them, "getting the kill" doesn't mean duty complete. It means "duty complete AND me doing good". They don't dissociate because to them there is no merit in killing if they were shit in that pull.

"There is a huge amount of player who don't care the forum, balance discord or fflogs at all" Indeed and the fact they go in something with savage or ultimate in the name without seeking information beforehand is alarming. How much do they respect the time of other people ? There are 7 other people in there so it's not just their own fun that counts.

Do note that deadweight can kill. But that doesn't change their nature. I'm not talking adapted fight rotation. I'm talking base, dummy rotation. People doing a random rotation won't down ultimate. For instance, a SMN not doing WW appropriately and desaligning dots application, etc. That is what I call knowing the rotation. These rotations were figured with external means.

If he doesn't output the damage required to down ultimate, someone else will need to step in. So the group kills but that SMN to me isn't a killer. He is a carry. And though the game itself will make no difference, there is a whole world between the two, and not for raiders only, for responsible adults who just don't find it ok to carry the world if the world isn't putting in the effort.

So ACT is not needed to get a kill, just to know if it was your doing.