Is TBN a DPS loss?

My friend keeps insisting that TBN is a DPS loss and refuses to use it in raids. He uses this reddit post to prove his point:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...mall_dps_loss/

I know that this isn't true but I can't find the numbers to prove it. Is he right? I don't think he is but at this point I just need to know.

I didn't check the math and don't really plan to, but assuming the math is correct, that is 7 potency, it's so little that it doesn't matter. A crit here and there, especially if it is from a dark arts bloodspiller will more than make up for it.

Now if you use it too often or on cd, it most definetly will become a dps loss. You have to find the best why to use it, which is pretty much up to you, personally for me some fights see more use out of it than others. I always use it in my opener. O9s doesnt really do alot of damage especially on the tank, so i pretty much only use it for busters. O10s does alot of damage, i use it for all busters, and on cooldown for ancient dragon.

It's pretty much an on demand rampart, so it is key to use, especially in fights that the tank buster really hurts, like o10s for example.

Would it be better if it were ogcd, of couse, but used smartly it is pretty much dps neutral.

Also in dungeons it is important to use it to keep your aoe rotation going.

Will that dps -/+ matter if your dead?

The answer to that is gonna be a no

Can you manage your cool downs to avoid the extra pain?

Yes

Its based on player- my take is, in general, to make your job easy as possible if your a dps or a healer. Dps to me is pointless if i cant make sure the party is dead dying or cant make the cut

The REAL answer is "it depends."

For example, if there's a trick attack window and you use TBN and pop it within that same duration to use a DA'd Bloodspiller, TBN is officially a gain. Another example would be is if you KNOW your GCDs always end up a certain way during a fight. If you've been noticing you always finish a phase on a hard slash, deliberately using TBN to use bloodspiller instead is now an official gain.

Then there are instances where using TBN may be a DPS loss, but a necessary one to avoid a bigger loss. If you used BW and delirium, you might find you're swimming in so much MP you're at risk of capping, and using DA isn't enough. TBN on whoever's MTing will then be a good solution, better than using DP (a 14 pot loss) or even overflowing, which is huggee potency loss. Of course, there's also the argument that using TBN might save your healer a GCD, especially during certain segments where damage is heavy on the tanks.

Personally, I use the hell out of TBN and I achieved OVERALL ORANGES! If your buddy's worried about his parses, he should focus on fundamentals first and min-maxing later, unless he's already at high 99's across the board but I doubt it if he thinks TBN is as simple as "it's a loss."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

The REAL answer is "it depends."

For example, if there's a trick attack window and you use TBN and pop it within that same duration to use a DA'd Bloodspiller, TBN is officially a gain. Another example would be is if you KNOW your GCDs always end up a certain way during a fight. If you've been noticing you always finish a phase on a hard slash, deliberately using TBN to use bloodspiller instead is now an official gain.

Then there are instances where using TBN may be a DPS loss, but a necessary one to avoid a bigger loss. If you used BW and delirium, you might find you're swimming in so much MP you're at risk of capping, and using DA isn't enough. TBN on whoever's MTing will then be a good solution, better than using DP (a 14 pot loss) or even overflowing, which is huggee potency loss. Of course, there's also the argument that using TBN might save your healer a GCD, especially during certain segments where damage is heavy on the tanks.

Personally, I use the hell out of TBN and I achieved OVERALL ORANGES! If your buddy's worried about his parses, he should focus on fundamentals first and min-maxing later, unless he's already at high 99's across the board but I doubt it if he thinks TBN is as simple as "it's a loss."

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I agree with all this.
I find its dps neutral as long as it pops everytime. The key to drks dps is making sure youre NEVER at max MP, single weave during bloodweapon, and double weave when its off.
If you plan on using C&S during BW, darkarts after Souleater combo, and use C&S after HardSlash.

It can be tough to not overcap on mp while single weaving in BW. But that's when tbn, and DP can help out. Like Hierro said, over capping mp is a big dps loss.

that post on reddit is from a year ago, TBN is our main mitigation for everything and the dps gain/loss depending of the situation is so small its dosen't matter today except if the shield don't pop of course, tell you friend stop using that as a reference and pair TBN with everything, he is making your healers work harder for a outdate post.

"TL;DR - TBN is relatively DPS neutral when looking at a large scale of events. Focus on using it to reduce damage, and optimize your mana usage after you are comfortable with your raid group and damage intake."

Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fjq2CcVYE/edit

tanks refusing to use defensive cds because they think its a damage loss, now u know why healers are always in demand, they have to deal with that sht.

Yeah, three TBNs is roughly 23.3 potency lost over 45 seconds. The horror.

It's also roughly 46-47k HP that your healers don't have to heal. If that saves even one GCD of healing, if that turns into even one healer attack, active TBN use is a raid dps gain.

Ask yourself, do you lose more DPS from spending some mana, or from eating the floor?

In an ideal scenario, you would dump all of your MP during raid buff windows as an OT. However, if your co-tank needs more mitigation or your own CD alignment would be better served with TBN in a certain spot, then use TBN. Like if you need magical mitigation, you can TBN with Dark Mind so you can save Shadow Wall and Rampart at another spot and Living Dead somewhere else. It is better than just face tanking stuff out of grit, dying and blaming your healers for letting you die.

Just tell him he's right and pat him on the back. Sounds like he's maybe not open to other information if he's refusing to use TBN in raid. Important thing is that you use your skills correctly and intelligently--and can take satisfaction in playing drk better than he does when you do :)

It Depends on if the usage is proper. If you using TBN allows the healer to get in 1-3 Stone4/ Broil 2/ etc, then its a group dps gain and a personal dps loss, but I remember people breaking it down like its 8 potency personal dps loss. So it really just depends on you.

As was pointed out before, the value of any given TBN depends on what GCD you end a phase on. Ideally, you want to end any phase transition on Souleater, so if TBN helps you do that, it's a gain. If TBN interferes with that, it's a loss. On average, we're talking about very small potency differences per use. As long as you use it with a specific goal in mind (I want to mitigate this specific cleave or attack, as opposed to throwing it out against random autos), you'll probably benefit.

It's also worth noting that if TBN reduces an attack to zero damage, any attached debuffs often don't apply as well. A good example of this is Reset in O11S Level Checker. A central AoE forces you to move out to the edge. If you get hit by the AoE, you take a damage down debuff. But if you TBN + Dark Mind the AoE, you take zero damage from the AoE and can ignore it without penalty for full uptime. Likewise, you can also zero damage flamethrower dots to negate them after Update Program so that your healers can ignore you for a bit.

So while it's not something that you use on recast, and you generally don't throw it out just for fun, smart use of TBN is essential part of optimising.