Warriors of Darkness and DRK

So I've been reading lots of musing on the lore forums about what it will mean to be a WOD (evil Ascian-loving monster, anyone?) but I haven't seen anyone mention this question in the light of how Fray talks about the darkness and what it means to be a DRK. I haven't levelled my DRK very high but I definitely get the impression that Fray sees embracing the darkness in a much more positive than negative light (could be entirely wrong of course). I just wondered if anyone had viewed becoming the WOD in these terms and can that be seen in more positive light (pun not intended)?

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I definitely get the impression that Fray sees embracing the darkness in a much more positive than negative light (could be entirely wrong of course).

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I don't think you're mistaken. Fray seems to push the understanding of DRK (lower-case) darkness as a justified and self-serving sadness, angst, and rage transformed into power to be harnessed for righteous causes. Bring evil actions to evildoers. It's the vigilante justice we all admit would be efficient but don't trust anyone to get right.

The "Flame in the Abyss" is (according to Fray, at least) the hope and love that's all but smothered out by the cruel realities of the world, surrounded by the pain and anger of that good in the world being violated.

Is there anything inherently connected to (upper-case) Darkness in there? Or was it just thematically appealing to have the Warrior of Light Darkness on the Dark Knight job because why not, man, get your edgy art on. Please look forward to it...?

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I just wondered if anyone had viewed becoming the WOD in these terms and can that be seen in more positive light?

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That's a big...maybe? This is tied into why the 5.0 trailer hit me like a suckerpunch.

The 3.4 Warriors of Darkness were lied to and made pawns of by Elidibus. The Emissary told them truths that led them to the "realization" that they had no better choice than to serve a Rejoining because the only options they knew they had were to let everything be destroyed and become void, or to reduce the world to aether and let it flow into the Source dimension to be born as life anew. Either way everyone dies, but one is clearly preferable. Urianger manipulated the manipulator and led the Warriors of Darkness to a way to actually save their world - an option Elidibus never would have hinted was on the table because it didn't serve his interests.

In that light, the Warriors of Darkness could easily be seen in a positive light. They gave up everything, including their lives, and forsook the Mothercrystal for Her helplessness to take up Zodiark's cause, thinking it would save what little they could of their world.

But where does that leave us? Can we take up Darkness to prevent the imbalance of Light? Absolutely. Hydaelyn and Zodiark are both helpless to control anything; they need agents to do it for them. But does the Warrior of Light becoming the Warrior of Darkness mean he trusts the Ascians? That he works for Zodiark? Not necessarily.

But Arbert told us to work for neither Light nor Dark, but ourselves. Would Zodiark jibe with that message? Hydaelyn might - She (allegedly) just wants Her children to thrive. But that means She can't be "victorious" over Zodiark, or allow Zodiark to be "victorious" over Her. What if they're mutually destroyed? Can the world as we know it even exist once the distinction between Light and Dark has been unmade?

Would the Ascians jibe with the reins of history in the hands of man? Obviously not.

Would the game go as far as to turn us to the Ascian cause against Hydaelyn? I'd have said 0% chance last week. I'd say 10% chance this week, lol.

It's all about being new and exciting without undermining or cheapening what came before.

And this is gonna be a hell of a tightrope.

No one tell him the end to the DRK quest line! lol

In simple terms, there's a difference between wielding your darkness and the Darkness. The former is turning your sorrow into strength, the latter would be using the power of Zodiark.

Will this come into play, with DRK as the "focus" job of Shadowbringers? Whoooo knows...

I am possibly romanticising this way too much, but it seems very possible to me that we can take a dark path without it being morally evil. For example, if we had fought after the Sultana's 'assassination', if we'd taken our righteous rage and wreaked havoc on Ilberd and Lolorito, we'd would have been working for the forces of darkness and chaos against light and order. But in this case Light and order were reprehensible and needed to be held to account. Fray would not have run had he been there. People conflate dark and chaos with evil, and they need not be. Light and order can be repressive and stifling and destructive

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I am possibly romanticising this way too much

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As far as I know, I'm with you on a lot of this. I'd love if it was classical Final Fantasy themes, but incidentally. Light isn't necessarily always "good' and "better" and a monolithic force, and neither is Dark. Though I think I'd also prefer if it just so happened that Light truly was our best option (just to not deviate too far from years of estalished themes). As far as we know, She created life (as we know it) out of fear of Him when this was already in motion, and She is the only one who really cares what happens to Her children going forward...even if they had to wield Darkness to put things right in our beautifully broken little cosmos. Though (by virtue of being an archivist and deferring to Occam most of the time) my batting average for predicting plot twists is abysmal.

Still, if She really made us, She could have made us with hearts of pure Light, and we are clearly possessed partly of the Dark. Why? Why would She allow this? Is Her story a lie? Or is She trying to preserve the balance of the cosmos by delegating the war between Light and Dark to the hearts of man - the millions, and millions of hearts of man - trusting in the Law of Large Numbers to ensure that we'd keep the balance ourselves and shut the gods out of it?

I do wonder if drks who have at least done the lv50 quest will get nods. As that part of ourselves did say it would wait for the day we needed to unleash it. It does seem that we might need to stop being so much the boy scout/goodie too shoes in the upcoming expac.

I loved the DRK job story so much. I can't wait to see how Shadowbringers will affect it. I am also hoping that they give the WoL/WoD extra lines depending if they have DRK as a leveled job or not. Much like how certain NPCs commented on the WoL if they were a certain job, like Yuguri commenting on us if we were a Ninja.

So we're talking about 3 different aspects

DRK- i have a giant sword and I hate being abused as a tool, the abyss is my power/ability

Warriors of Darkness (former warriors of light) who gave their souls to save their world from the extra light

Warrior of Darkness (new expac) my perspective- a title, a position and a "proper" equilibrium

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Originally Posted by Elladie

I am possibly romanticising this way too much, but it seems very possible to me that we can take a dark path without it being morally evil.

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Actually, the best analogy would be the quintessential dark knight, the Batman, himself. A vigilante who works outside the law, and bends the rules with the ultimate goal of bringing evil-doers to justice. The over-riding question at all times is whether the ends justify the means. Unfortunately, there's no clear-cut answer to this classic moral dilemma.

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Originally Posted by SicariusSeven

I loved the DRK job story so much. I can't wait to see how Shadowbringers will affect it.

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I'm more curious about how the apparent switch from WoL to WoD would affect all the other jobs. Which job explore its "dark side", so to speak? The warrior succumbs finally to his inner beast; the bard gives in to sorrow and sings dirges instead of ballads; the ninja becomes a ruthless assassin as he is meant to be, etc. In my own head-canon, my summoner has already gone through a trial to subdue all the awakened primal essences in his aether. It would be cool if a "dark summoner" story involves the Bahamut-egi running amok.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I'm more curious about how the apparent switch from WoL to WoD would affect all the other jobs. Which job explore its "dark side", so to speak? The warrior succumbs finally to his inner beast; the bard gives in to sorrow and sings dirges instead of ballads; the ninja becomes a ruthless assassin as he is meant to be, etc. In my own head-canon, my summoner has already gone through a trial to subdue all the awakened primal essences in his aether. It would be cool if a "dark summoner" story involves the Bahamut-egi running amok.

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Given this is probably easier said then done with some jobs as such I image it will be hand-waved in most of the job quests just like how being the Warrior of Light had really no impacted on being a DRK or BLM.

Most jobs weren't impacted in either HW or StB by the MSQ except by having new locations to go too. And some jobs didn't even do that. I expect the ShB Job Quests to be much the same.

I really love the dynamic of duality and equilibrium. It seems to be a constant theme in this game and i feel like it will be magnified in the next expansion. Fighting for the light by becoming dark so to speak. There are already jobs that currently play with the duality of light and dark, like Astrologian and Scholar. It will be interesting to see if some of the new ability names or play styles will show this off more.

I think that there are a few layers to this.

Superficially, there's little difference between a "Free Paladin" and a "Dark Knight". Both are knight errants, after a fashion. Both go out and help the poor and downtrodden. But the difference is in the why:

Your affinity with your darkside grows stronger by the day. And yet...there is a hesitation. Listen to me. You have performed great deeds and saved countless people. You are a hero to the realm... But you are no dark knight.

A dark knight accepts that they cannot save everyone─that sometimes, they are fortunate just to save themselves. Sacrifice, is to renounce that which binds you. To recognize that which matters─and forsake all that does not. At the very least, you must realize that you cannot continue to carry all these burdens...

Unless you wish to die a slave.

The conventional knight helps those in need in keeping with their oaths, their obligations. As the Warrior of Light, you unquestioningly help those around you because they ask you to. But the people around you view you as a hero not because you do the "right" thing, but because you do what they want you to.

As the Dark Knight quest featuring the merchant and his stolen goods illustrates, trying to help someone in need doesn't always win you the gratitude of others. People are selfish. You help someone recover their goods, only for them to demand repayment for the damages.

We saw how quickly our allies abandoned us, at the end of 2.5, when it didn't serve their purposes. When we, and not they, needed help, it was suddenly inconvenient to do so.

Hah hah...“surrender your weapon”? After what happened in Ul'dah? They must be mad.
A fantastic display of willful ignorance...
Wipe the slate clean. Forgive and forget! Convince yourselves that we can be controlled... The Warrior of Light! Our Weapon of Light!

The essence of being a Dark Knight is in the why. Who is the Warrior of Light? What do you believe in?

On a throne of bone he waits...
Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
They come to entreat his judgment...
Serve... Save... Slave... Slay...
One by one, in solemn procession...

A chorus of voices cries out for a hero, and he comes.
He smiles. He nods. And he remains silent...
But he too has a voice...
I will be heard...

The Warrior of Light has no voice. They're an inexorable force for good, that "stood against the coming of the storm." But without a voice, without a will, they're just a weapon. The path to becoming a Dark Knight is about finding that voice.

Listen to my voice. Listen to your heartbeat.
You stand at the precipice, but do not fear the fall. Cast yourself into the abyss, and you shall soar above, free at last. Only when you have renounced everything are you free to do anything.

The abyss and the flame aren't necessarily negative things in themselves. They don't even necessarily come from negative emotions (see: moogles). It's about finding yourself, and freeing yourself. Where others are bound by their oaths to serve corrupt institutions and tyrants, Dark Knights are free to aid and protect those that they care about. Not because they're asked to, obliged to, or required to, but because they want to.

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Ahhh, I think I'm beginning to understand this whole “darkness” concept, kupo! Harnessing the power of your emotions or some such, yes? I'm reminded of an ancient legend about a moogle named Mog─rather simple name, I know, but those were simpler times, kupo! Anyway, Mog had a penchant for dancing, and─

Wait, wait. What does dancing have to do with the dark arts?

Everything, kupo! Everything! The point is, your master was absolutely right when he told you to “submit to the flame.” You just never figured out what he meant by it.

[...]

It all seems so simple in retrospect... The moment I stopped trying to find the answer, there it was. All that anger, all that rage...born of a fervent desire to protect that which we hold most dear.

Shadowbringers
In the Fanfest lore panel, Koji Fox mentions that the Japanese title is 'Shikokku no Hangyakusha' (漆黒の反逆者) - meaning 'Jet Black Traitors'. Being a story set, at least part, in Garlemald, this is about the "bad guys". But this is also the first opportunity that we also have to see them as a people, rather than a militaristic force. After this, will we still be able to look at them under the lens of "the villains"?

On the other end of the spectrum, the Warrior of Light has always represented both the "good" choice, and the popular one. It's easy to act when you have your friends and allies behind you. It's easy to act if everyone agrees with you. But what if doing the "heroic" thing meant opposing the Eorzean Alliance? What if it meant opposing the Scions? What if it meant being hated by your old allies and friends? The second part of any expansion trailer is usually where the plot twist lies, and I'm curious to see what, and whom, we're really up against.

There's a critical point in many Final Fantasy stories where you hit rock bottom, and you have to go it alone in order to redeem yourself and win back your friends. These are character defining moments. Cecil washes up on the coast of Mysidia. Celes wakes up in the world of ruin. I feel like 2.5 flirted with the idea, but took the soft way out in early Heavensward before any real tension built up. I'll be very interested to see what happens here.

To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. Justice demands no less. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it.

I like that analysis.

To add to the difference between Dark Knights and Paladins, Paladin Soul Stones stop "working" for Paladins that forswear their oaths. Even if it's for a good reason. The Lvl 50-60 Paladin quest has a Paladin who had to give up his oaths for some very good reasons and as a result needs to find other Paladins who haven't done so yet. It feels very much like the "Lawful Good" job where breaking the "Law" causes the Job to be usable anymore. Dark Knight is much more along the lines of "Chaotic Good", and is all about your own personal sense of honor, not society's.