Trying to be a voice of reason here. BLU's implementation does suck. Yes. But, we are not worse off for it. If you don't like this version of BLU, the game is no different for you than it was a week ago. You've lived without raiding on BLU for years, you can continue to do so. Content hasn't been taken away. Potential content has, but are you paying money every month for potential content? No, that's a hilariously dumb notion.
Mime is one of my favorite FF Jobs. If it showed up unable to raid, I would keep raiding on PLD. The game doesn't get worse.
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11-21-2018, 03:59 AMdragonseth07Blue Mage's implementation sucks. But, you aren't worse off for having it.
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11-21-2018, 04:01 AMXelphatolTylenolCepacolAlcohol
I don't think anyone is arguing that this is some kind of net deletion of content.
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11-21-2018, 04:04 AMSkyskip
It's absolutely worse than it was a week ago. A week ago I still had hope.
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11-21-2018, 04:07 AMRaldo
One could argue that the creation of BLU saps resources that could've been spent to make another normal job, but idk enough about development to say if that's true.
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11-21-2018, 04:07 AMRodaThis. To people hoping to main blu, future updates were exciting because maybe they would announce blu as a class they can progress with their friends with. Now they don't have that excitement anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyskip
If you didn't care about blu, then yeah you've got a neutral situation. But apathy isn't really a valid position to have in a discussion. -
11-21-2018, 04:08 AMThunderblazeSame here, I knew BLU would be coming...but this isn't BLU. It's like ordering your coffee and getting tea instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyskip
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11-21-2018, 04:10 AMSenorPatty
I haven't seen people discussing their inability to raid come xpac. What I've seen is people discussing their inability to raid withit.
Why am I making such an asinine distinction? Because OPs distinction is just as equally asinine. I mean, in itself, a game being no different than a week ago just means nothing's changed. However in direct relation to an expansion and what the meaning of that entails, for a lot of people, it makes them scratch their heads at best, and irate at worst. -
11-21-2018, 04:18 AMMelichoirQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyskip
There is that other thread with a guy who unsubbed. You could follow suit if this game is so devastating for your hopes. Just saying.
Otherwise the OP is right. Youre not being denied anything, other than your ideals of what jobs get to be what. Gonna tell you now, theres gonna be people who are upset with how Gunblade and Dancer are implemented. Chances are though people wont unsub over it, or raise that huge a stink that this whole BLU thing did. -
11-21-2018, 04:18 AMStanelisWell, to be honest, I'd rather have SE cancel the release of BLU at 4.5 in order for them to release it as a real class later. Because now we know for sure we ll never get blu as a genuine class.Quote:
But, we are not worse off for it. If you don't like this version of BLU, the game is no different for you than it was a week ago.
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11-21-2018, 04:20 AMJBee
No it does not take away any content.
It does take away hope of the release of a job many people have been looking forward to. Releasing it as a Limited Job basically closes that door - short of them deciding to change their minds, which is pretty unlikely. The people who, based off of the concept alone, were planning on that being their Main Job once it came out - if it came out - had something removed from their goals for this game.
If a job you were into enough that you planned on main switching because that's the playstyle you prefer - as best as you could assume on theoreticals of course - and it was announced you couldn't do that, then yes, you would be bummed - and deservedly so. -
11-21-2018, 04:20 AMMelichoirYou assume that this would still be possible given the issue. You also assume that SE is just making this decision facetiously. Chances are very strong that they tried to make it a normal class and could not make it work within the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
To Sum this up:
People tell SE " WE WANT AN OREO ICECREAM CAKE THAT DOESNT MELT, thats all we want!!!"
SE says "Hmm ok, we can give you an OREO ICECREAM CAKE, but it might melt if you dont eat it quick, or we can give you a regular plain cake that has an oreo on top of it, but it wont melt!"
A lot of you are saying that youll take the second cake on the simple basis it wont melt. SE is offering you what your asking for, as closely as possible, and you are rejecting it for an imitation. Or bluntly, youre more concerned with your cake not melting than having the cake you say desire. -
11-21-2018, 04:27 AMStanelisYes, having a perfect exemple of working blu in FFXI (that is way more complex in its design than FFXIV) and given the simplicity of FFXIV's battle system (there are only so few effects that go beyond damage/healing and mitigation), I very much assume that it is possible and that Se's decision comes from not wanting to spend the relevant amount of time to make a viable class (gotta find time to develop cash shop items).Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
They also could have made blu magic ninjustsu like (eg something you cast once in a while along your abilities).
I'm only asking for some coherent design in the game (eg all classes should be equal on a game design standpoint). If blu proves to be too hard to design (and I really don't buy that explanation), then another class should be designed instead.Quote:
SE is offering you what your asking for, as closely as possible, and you are rejecting it for an imitation. Or bluntly, youre more concerned with your cake not melting than having the cake you say desire.
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11-21-2018, 04:27 AMdragonseth07This is just like any other new feature with an expac. If you use it, great. If not, it doesn't matter. The existence of BLU in this form does not make the game worse than it was, because there's no difference! You're not playing it now, and you still won't be playing it when it comes out. The game, and what you get out of your sub, has had no change.Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorPatty
Now, if you're paying good money every month for hope... Well, paying money for something that may or may not exist someday maybe is a really bad decision. -
11-21-2018, 04:28 AMFlanaIt absolutely could have sapped time they could have spent on the other jobs we already have, but without knowing what SB2 Electric Boogaloo changes are now we can't really say if it had an impact or not. If there are more broken changes like 4.0 launch, the dev time spent on BLU could have been used to fix that. We won't know that for awhile though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raldo
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11-21-2018, 04:28 AMNanaWiloh
Players: Change things up please!!!
MMO company: Alright
*changes things up*
Players: *angry* Why did you change things!!
MMO company: *sighs* -
11-21-2018, 04:31 AMMelichoirYour position is reliant on the Devs being lazy and/or incompetent. If thats the case, why not unsub as well? If you hate the job theyre doing, dont pay them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
I do not share that position. Maybe Im just being optimistic. -
11-21-2018, 04:33 AMRita1989This isn't really changing anything though it's like releasing like half a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
It is in line with SE releasing less and less content as expansions come out so I guess there is that. -
11-21-2018, 04:36 AMdragonseth07That's just disingenuous. It has entirely different systems and it's own "endgame" with the Carnivale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita1989
If they released it as a normal Trinity DPS and didn't let it raid then, you could say that.
It's not half a job. It's a different style of one. -
11-21-2018, 04:39 AMAerlanaThe difference is that now, we receive one more insult from devs.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonseth07
They say "hey, here is the blue mage" and yes we will have it... for a side content, yes ok... but not for the main contents.
You will have the new toy but while having hand of it, youwont be able to play with it where you intended to play... Like a watergun, but dont go outside playing it with other people, just stay in bathroom with it... -
11-21-2018, 04:43 AMNanaWilohIf they released it like every other job people would complain about them not handling it differently. End of the day SE loses no matter how they do things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita1989
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11-21-2018, 04:48 AMAerlanaThey could also do it as a real support job, thing that never existed on FFXIV (dont know for 1.0 so, i speak for ARR and after)Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
It would be "not the same thing" aaaaannd... would be a real job added.
And no, this is not a "job different from the other" i dont see any job, i see a side content... -
11-21-2018, 04:49 AMFyceWanting to live in a fantasy world while playing a Final Fantasy title is quite fitting actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyskip
Props to you for staying in the theme. -
11-21-2018, 04:49 AMRita1989Who has ever complained about a full new job being released?Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
If you think there would be mass outrage if Blue Mage was made into a full job your deluding yourself. -
11-21-2018, 04:59 AMNanaWilohWhat would a support job offer that other jobs dont already offer...think that over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerlana
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11-21-2018, 05:00 AMStanelisI wouldn't say lazy or incompetent, but SE's priority seems obviously to make the most money out of the smallest duration of development. One only need to take a look at content like Eureka, diadem, the PVP, the decreased amount of dungeons per patch and the increased amount of cash shop items being developed to see a pattern. Furthermore, when you take a look at SE's PR regarding announcements, you ll notice that they find every speech elements in order to justify cutting corners in content, but never go the extra mile to add something more. When I listen to SE trying to justify releasing an unfinished job with bad explanations, I simply roll my eyes. And especially so they designed years ago the perfect exemple of a similar job that could perfectly be used without being unbalanced in content. It's not even a competitor who designed the stuff, it's the very same company.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
Also, I don't know where I wrote that I wouldn't unsub (I don't even know if I ll buy the next expansion), but that s not your concern nor it is relevant to the discussion at hand. I don't need you to tell me which game I may or may not play. -
11-21-2018, 05:01 AMAppleJinx
Also a week ago we didn't know we were gonna be forcefully tore apart from our friends from other servers.
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11-21-2018, 05:06 AMNanaWilohNever assume what some thinks unlesss you like making a Arse out of yourself. My whole point has been people ask for changes then complain when SE makes them. I personally think blu mages will level faster then they can learn skills which would explain why you only go too level 50. We will see when they come out..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita1989
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11-21-2018, 05:07 AMRita1989Uh you are doing the same things you are assuming that people would have been angry about Blue Mage if it was released differentlyQuote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
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11-21-2018, 05:19 AMNanaWilohSomeone just mentioned it being a real support job like FFXI, rather then what its being released as.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita1989
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11-21-2018, 05:28 AMNanaWiloh
"Unlike other classes, BLU learns skills from defeating enemies, which means going out of your way to fight certain mobs. The average DF idiot doesn't even bother learning a rotation with skills the game GIVES you, so what do you think the chances are of meeting a BLU who actually has the required skills?
BLU will be great for a little diversion from the game. A cool little side quest. A little adventure all of its own that guides you to getting the skills you need.
But letting this out into the open where any moron can foul up a roulette would be a grave mistake."
Saw this on other thread just wanted to share it.. -
11-21-2018, 05:31 AMAerlanaAll kind of skill that Samurai dont have?Quote:
Originally Posted by NanaWiloh
I dont see the matter BLU being support now? I mean, if a party with 4 DD does less damages that a party 3 DD + 1 BLU (or any support job) with this +1 doing really low damages, it will work fine...
Think about it a little ;)
And, people complaning about "this" BLU we have dont complain about the fact it is a side content, but all complains about the fact we CANT play him fully in the main core content.
Why not just having both ? thise sidegame AND the job ? -
11-21-2018, 05:39 AMwhiskeybravoIf Gunblade and Dancer are introduced as "limited jobs" then yes. If they are introduced like Every. Other. Job. then it will just be the usual too strong/too weak arguments we always have about jobs. BLU complaints are not even close to the same category as job balancing. Hell I'm not even sure it deserves the moniker of BLU until it's an actual job, as of right now it's only a glorified side quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
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11-21-2018, 05:48 AMMelichoirMin/Maxing profit is a model virtually all businesses do. If you were paid $100 to do a job, to maximize profit, it would behoove you to do it as quickly as possible with as least amount of effort. This is common sense. You dont overwork something if theres no need. It's weird that we would assume that game studios are some how special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
Eureka isnt a great example of that because the flaw was in the concept, not in the work. Pretty sure weve been getting the same amoutn of dungeons per patch as before. Were currently at 8 lvl 70 Dungeons (outside of the original MSQ at 4.0) at patch 4.45. HW had 12 by the time 3.55 rolled out. We can reasonably assume 5.0 will have 2 more dungeons, and .5 may have another 2 to prep for xpac. We're already at 7 Trials and due probably for another, when HW only had 7 by 3.55. Still have the third installment of the alliance (which would be par for the course), and (even for its failures), have 3 and possibly a 4th Eureka. From a numbers stand point, were on track, if not having slightly more than HW did content wise.
This doesnt even consider that boss fights have increased in complexity. Im not saying SB was glorious and without flaws. As you pointed out, Eureka was a crapshoot mostly due to Pagos. The Devs have done goofed at times. I get it. But theyve also done a lot of pretty cool things and good design decisions. This is why I have the position of "Lets try it out first, then rally the pitchforks if its bad."
I know the meme of "Hardware limitations." And yeah, some of it is absurd. From a business standpoint, theyre actually saying the right things. Pretty much, if there are internal issues going on (cash flow, lack of resources, etc) you do not say that out loud. You make excuses. Their 'excuses' to me come across as that half the time. Im not saying that it makes things better, but rather my disagreement with you is motive. Youre asserting lazyness, and I dont think its that based on the things they have done, what I know about business, and what I know about game design. I think there are larger factors as play that we dont know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
I was being flippant, and more aimed broadly at the general attitude about the Devs at SE, but the point is simple: If you dont like the direction of things, and dont think theyre capable of fixing it for whatever reason, just dont pay em. That "vote with your wallet" metaphor is the point here. If its a big enough issue, or you do not have hopes in this company and how its being run, dont support it. Either itll collapse or itll change course to win back your patronage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
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11-21-2018, 05:49 AMStormfur
The way they chose to implement it, with learning spells from monsters and Primals, is really innovative and unique.
But I don't think we needed 49 of them at launch with more on the way.
Because there's going to be a set of spells that everyone recommends you have and everything else is just filler or fluff.
The reasoning they gave at the dev panel was rather weak -- "Oh you don't have spell X? Booted from the party" is no different than "Oh you don't have your paladin job stone? Booted from the party."
A blue mage who has taken the time (and had the patience) to get all the spells would be as welcomed in a party as a player who took the time to get their final Eureka weapon (and assuming they know how to play their job and do mechanics). That player took the time and effort to work toward a goal. Now the dev team is saying "Good for you, but you can't use those abilities in raid."
Then why have them at all???
A crafter who doesn't level up ALL crafting classes isn't barred from crafting things. They need all crafting classes to make end-game things easier, without a doubt, but they aren't completely shut out from it. If I'm an armorer and I want to craft an armoire, I know I'll need to level up carpenter. Not a big deal. Can I craft an armoire with fewer skills? Conceivably. Would I have an easier time if I leveled up all other crafting classes? Absolutely.
TL;DR: If you put in the time and dedication toward working on a goal, you should have something to show for your efforts that can be used in group settings. -
11-21-2018, 05:59 AMAerlanaUnique = nowhere else = falseQuote:
Originally Posted by Stormfur
Innovative = neverdone before = false.
This is the main thing about all those... Many people defending what we will have say how much the devs does a thing never seen before etc which is fault. . .
It is a side content, using mechanic from other FF (and from a MMORPG FF ! ) to do a simple sidecontent, where people did ask to get a job.
And then yes you are right... if BLU is really a job, getting all skills (hey not hard to create a quest, this quest list spells you have to get, and you cant go to duties until you dont have finished a specific quest of collecting skill). -
11-21-2018, 06:01 AMStanelisI don't care about how things are done or why, all I care about, as a customer, is the result. And what I m saying as a customer is that these practices aren't acceptable. As you pointed out there are a lot of alternatives that can, are and will be played instead. FFXIV is the only game I play where I feel that the developer isn't being honest with what it is said that will be delivered and what is indeed delivered. FFXIV as it is currently is is an aging game, especially when it doesn't evolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melichoir
The issue was both in the concept and in the execution. And it is even worse to see such a content after the diadem.Quote:
Eureka isnt a great example of that because the flaw was in the concept, not in the work.
No they didn't. On the contrary, there are an increasing amount of mechanics being recycled (especially soaks).Quote:
This doesnt even consider that boss fights have increased in complexity.
No they aren't. As a business transparency should be a thing and implying you ll deliver something better than what is actually delivered isn't a good practice.Quote:
I know the meme of "Hardware limitations." And yeah, some of it is absurd. From a business standpoint, theyre actually saying the right things.
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11-21-2018, 06:08 AMdragonseth07People are complaining BECAUSE of this evolution. They are literally complaining because we got something different, instead of more of the same ham-fisted Trinity gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanelis
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11-21-2018, 06:14 AMRita1989No people are complaining because the idea of a limited job is a step back from what we currently have its more of a de-evolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonseth07
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11-21-2018, 06:14 AMStanelisThe fact that evolution is needed doesn't mean you can randomly make untested changes, especially when said change only applies to outdated content that's more than 3 years old. Also, I think you ll be disappointed if you expect something incredible with the blu, because a DPS spell is a DPS spell no matter what its skin is (that's also why I don't get the "hard to balance" argument, ffxiv is designed to be easy to balance, it s the root of its battle system).Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonseth07
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11-21-2018, 06:26 AMAerlanaBut... ...Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonseth07
we HAVE more of the same ham-fisted Trinity gameplay.
If they wanted to do some evolution and not adding a content, but a REAL evolution, they would add the Blue Mage as a job able to do top endgame content (so, even ultimate fights) WITHOUT being a tank or a heal or a DD...
But no, because they dont want to break this trinity, they dont add blue mage as job, but as side content !