Concerns about Blue Mage long-term viability in-game

Yes, this is another Blue Mage thread!

But this is coming from someone that is neither for nor against the implementation, since I have never played this class in any Final Fantasy game and don't really know what to expect with it - so I am keeping an open mind.

Based on what I've heard though, I'm concerned about its long-term viability. So far, we know of these restrictions:

• No matchmaking (pre-formed parties are OK)
• No POTD/HOH
• No PVP

The majority of leveling in the class seems to be rooted in attacking monsters, potentially learning their abilities and exploiting their weaknesses accordingly.

The devs mentioned it's a class designed for solo play, but in a game where everything is built around teamwork and the only exception being this Masked Carnivale, there's a lot that seems unnecessarily walled off.

So as I understand it, you can have BLU as a main class, but it's not going to be a class that you could PUG with in raids and such. Since you can't do daily roulettes with it, is the only way for BLU to earn daily tomestones through pre-formed parties?

With the exception of other BLUs, how many are realistically going to rely on Party Finder to do a daily dungeon (much less a level 50 or lower one?) I can see it now... "Please have pity on us and take us through Toto-Rak/Aurum Vale a few dozen times so we can learn the moves of the scorpion or the morbol!"

After that, your friends are going to hate you ;)

Learning the abilities of other monsters, and a whopping 49 of them at the start, sounds awesome. But it also feels like BLU is going to be a crutch. It feels more like a sandbox job than anything. Here's this wide open, incredible game world but you can only play in this little corner.

Unless there are other "limited" jobs, or if BLU only starts out limited but eventually gets its wings and can join the rest of the group, it really feels more like a gimmick.

Say someone collects all 49 actions. Then what? It's not like they can strut into the latest dungeon and be all like BEHOLD MY AWESOMENESS! *casts level 5 death"

I really hope the team takes player feedback -- ALL play feedback -- into consideration. There's so much that could've been done to smooth over the backlash. Create polls asking the community to choose which spells / weapons are most iconic for the Blue Mage and allow members to vote and take that into consideration...something that makes it feel like we have some say in the direction such a highly-desired job goes because so many asked for it.

I get that there's a lot we probably don't know. But right now it feels like "Here, you asked for this! *plop*" Your thoughts??

There's a lot of fair concerns here, and i hope some are addressed.

However i think youre really underestimating how many people will play blue mage.

There wont be just the one blue mage holding everyone else back, there will be loads of blue mages, with different skill sets, partying up together to do instanced content to learn new skills.
Parties with a blue mage tanking with mighty guard, while another with white wind serves a healer.
As much as theyve pegged this as a solo job, and while that'll be possible, there's as much reason to omay in groups.

Ultimately this is a horizontal progression job, instead of the linear grind of the others, and a reason to play in the open world.
Two common complaints finally being addressed.

I think if they had announced Blue Mage's unique aspects with an intended message that they will be looking to continue deciding its future alongside fan feedback, a lot of the panic and fear would be highly assuaged, this is coming from someone who is admittedly highly panicking. They did not, aspects of this seem to be either set in stone or projected to be (increasing the level cap, but not to the other classes is a bad sign) and that is causing people who would be otherwise unsettled and unsure but willing to try it spiraling into outrage instead.

If the developers were able to convey that the evolution of Blue Mage was up for negotiation before Blue Mage's release I think it will be received a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There wont be just the one blue mage holding everyone else back, there will be loads of blue mages, with different skill sets, partying up together to do instanced content to learn new skills.
Parties with a blue mage tanking with mighty guard, while another with white wind serves a healer.

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That's a really cool element I hadn't even thought of. I knew they'd likely have to team up with other blue mages (as everyone is looking for the same goal) but didn't think of them being customisable into different "roles".

Also I assume most targeted enemies are going to be in the open world - there aren't a lot of monsters that are only found in dungeons and not outside. Though it depends how specific they are about which enemies you can get the skills from.

(Though I don't think I'll be leveling blue mage straight away. It could be chaos in the overworld as everyone tries to take on the same enemies at once. I feel sorry for any new players trying to fulfill certain hunting logs or "kill five Monster X" quests...)

I hope the dev team has the foresight to make separate instances of areas where BLU spell monsters are located, otherwise we're gonna have Raubahn EX: Part BLU Electric Boogaloo all over again!

My concern with how BLU is currently set up (that we know so far, anyway) is that it is limited in what it can do and how it learns things - which is fine on the surface.

I fear that if they introduce more classes like this, you're going to have the "have/have-nots" in that 'these are classes you can do A, B, and C with", versus 'these are classes you can do X, Y, and Z" with -- in an attempt to make the game all things to all players without really satisfying either.

Once you get all classes to 70. Then what?

Once you get all your stuff geared, then what?

Once you own all the items at Gold Saucer, then what?

Once you beat the final tier of a Savage Raid, then what?

There is a point where there is little more to do in an MMO. This isnt limited to just BLU. This is just a universal truth. There is an actual end point in content. That end point continuously moves as patches are implemented, allowing us more things to do. Why would this be any different for BLU? At the end of the day, this is pretty much more "Non-Raid" content theyre adding. And thats good. Having things to do when youre not raiding or doing end game prog is a good thing. Youre not supposed to be maining BLU. It's something fun to do on the side. And that is ok. Much like Hildebrand quests, or anything else that gets extended with patches, at some point youll reach a cap on BLU, and youll have to wait for more content to be introduced. It happens. Thats ok.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Youre not supposed to be maining BLU. It's something fun to do on the side. And that is ok. Much like Hildebrand quests, or anything else that gets extended with patches, at some point youll reach a cap on BLU, and youll have to wait for more content to be introduced. It happens. Thats ok.

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So it IS side content afterall. And oh boy, what a big slap to the face for people who've been wanting to main BLU for so long. That is not okay in any way. A job relegated for the sole purpose of side content? Even some crafters make DoH their mains and not even BLU can lol. Even crafters are gonna get their own endgame now. Again, that is NOT okay, it doesn't just happen. Something as important as a job in an MMO shouldn't get the Hildebrand treatment. Unless they make endgame for BLU, I don't see how this is okay for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Tyla_Esmeraude

So it IS side content afterall. And oh boy, what a big slap to the face for people who've been wanting to main BLU for so long. That is not okay in any way. A job relegated for the sole purpose of side content? Even some crafters make DoH their mains and not even BLU can lol. Even crafters are gonna get their own endgame now. Again, that is NOT okay, it doesn't just happen. Something as important as a job in an MMO shouldn't get the Hildebrand treatment. Unless they make endgame for BLU, I don't see how this is okay for a lot of people.

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Again, why is this such a 'slap in the face' to people. That sounds like entitlement. As if SE is required to give players BLU. Also, assuming its getting the "hildebrand" treatment. Youre missing my point completely, so Ill clear it up for you. All content has an endpoint. Whether its side quests, or main quests, whether its Prog or class lvls or what not, everything eventually has an end point UNTIL more content is added. This will be no different with BLU. That was my point to the OP. Asking the "What do you do after you 'catch all the skills?" question is a moot point because that same question applies to every aspect of the game. The big difference is that of the classes, BLU is the first combat class not designed to do end game prog. And that is fine. I would rather them try a different approach to gameplay and content rather than give people a watered down cookie cutter caster with the name BLU on it just to semi-satisfy a small portion of the population who wants to do end game prog with it, who will all eventually complain about how watered down and noncompetitive it is (just like RDM).

Also, youve created a bit of a issue in your logic. While I may not have been clear in my intent on "Maining" something, the class is still viable in the sense of gameplay. You can still play it. Still enjoy it. Still do things with it. Just like DoH and DoL can. If people can main crafting, then you can main BLU in the same regards. You will just be limited in your scope of what you can do. When I said you wont "Main" BLU, I meant that you wont be using it for End Game Prog, which is where a lot of the vitriol is coming from. The class, in of itself, is still a viable play option. You can still play much of the game with it. Youre just locked out from Certain content, just like DoL and DoH. If anything, Youll have more room for play and variety as a BLU than as a DoH.

So if your point is that people can main Crafters, then you are invariably saying that people can Main BLU. Neither will be able to do end game raiding, but Both are viable classes if you arent concerned with that facet.

Though what I hazard, as I stated above, the issue is that because you cant do end game prog with it, that this is some huge misstep on SE's part, and theyre just "Slapping" in the players faces. And you know what. If you TRULY and DEEPLY believe that to be the case, unsub. Show them you do not approve of this level of disrespect to the player base by voicing your opinion, and then following it up with actual meaningful action. 'Cause frankly, a lot of the "Slapping people in the face" crowd are complaining about something as if its a dire terrible effect, but arent willing to do anything meaningful about it. So it comes across as hyperbole and knee jerk reactions.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

There is a point where there is little more to do in an MMO. This isnt limited to just BLU. This is just a universal truth. There is an actual end point in content. That end point continuously moves as patches are implemented, allowing us more things to do. Why would this be any different for BLU? At the end of the day, this is pretty much more "Non-Raid" content theyre adding. And thats good. Having things to do when youre not raiding or doing end game prog is a good thing. Youre not supposed to be maining BLU. It's something fun to do on the side. And that is ok. Much like Hildebrand quests, or anything else that gets extended with patches, at some point youll reach a cap on BLU, and youll have to wait for more content to be introduced. It happens. Thats ok.

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I'm not a Savage raider, so I'm happy for ANYTHING to come along to break up the monotony of log in-do your dungeon-get your tomestones-cap-log-out" - but why do this with a JOB, much less something so iconic and so deeply desired by the playerbase?

Disciples of the Land and Hand -- those are meant to be side jobs. Hildibrand is goofy fun you can do to sort of lighten the mood. None of those are combat classes. It would be one thing if we started out in game as an adventurer/freelancer sort of "jack of all trades" and then branched into a class, but I can think of many people who were looking to main BLU, and this is kind of a slap in the face to them.

I guess what I meant regarding asking "what happens next" after collecting the skills was less of "this is the end of the content, go outside and get some air", and more "I got all of these skills but what content can I do apart from pre-formed parties and Carnivale?" It's like getting all the logos actions in Eureka even if you can only use a handful of them. I did it anyway because I figured it would be mandatory come the next iteration of Eureka.

A minor concern of mine is for new players coming into the game who will want to try this out. Mind you, the fact that even though it's going to be an available job in ARR it won't be until after the base story is complete offsets much of it, since by nature of the quest progression you'll be required to have at least one other job leveled to 50. Even so, I hope they make the terms of BLU being a limited job very explicitly clear in-game. It'd be a shame for some poor newbie to try to take time to level up BLU, hoping to make it a main job, only to find out they can't do level roulettes or use Duty Finder, and will likely be hindered trying to use the job to make any kind of post-2.0 progress without a good and diligent set of friends to take them through. Again, I don't see it being a widespread problem, but still a possibility that could discourage some new players.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Youre not supposed to be maining BLU.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

That sounds like entitlement.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

If you TRULY and DEEPLY believe that to be the case, unsub. Show them you do not approve of this level of disrespect to the player base by voicing your opinion, and then following it up with actual meaningful action. 'Cause frankly, a lot of the "Slapping people in the face" crowd are complaining about something as if its a dire terrible effect, but arent willing to do anything meaningful about it. So it comes across as hyperbole and knee jerk reactions.

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Congratulations, my first ignore.

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Originally Posted by Stormfur

I'm not a Savage raider, so I'm happy for ANYTHING to come along to break up the monotony of log in-do your dungeon-get your tomestones-cap-log-out" - but why do this with a JOB, much less something so iconic and so deeply desired by the playerbase?

Disciples of the Land and Hand -- those are meant to be side jobs. Hildibrand is goofy fun you can do to sort of lighten the mood. None of those are combat classes. It would be one thing if we started out in game as an adventurer/freelancer sort of "jack of all trades" and then branched into a class, but I can think of many people who were looking to main BLU, and this is kind of a slap in the face to them.

I guess what I meant regarding asking "what happens next" after collecting the skills was less of "this is the end of the content, go outside and get some air", and more "I got all of these skills but what content can I do apart from pre-formed parties and Carnivale?" It's like getting all the logos actions in Eureka even if you can only use a handful of them. I did it anyway because I figured it would be mandatory come the next iteration of Eureka.

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I do not get why you think the player base is being jipped. The only place, ultimately, where BLU wont be functional in is Raid Prog.

Yes, BLU is a side content in regards to end game Prog. That is fine. This is a new thing they are trying. It sucks for anyone who wanted to play this as an end game raider. But if thats not your goal, you still can play this class, you can still do content, you just are a bit more limited in scope due to the nature of the design concept. There is no way around this. You either dumb it down and dissatisfy the players because it loses its identity, or you create its own content that can be played on the side, giving players more things to do.

As for what happens next, that just it. When you play out what is available, you wait for more things to get added. That is the luxury of MMOs. More content is usually 'on the way.' Youre not looking at its end goal correctly. When you get all the skills, and you do all the Carnival, thats it. That is the end game, until the endgame changes. Much like when you beat all the tiers of Omega, and are BIS, thats it for raid progression. Theres nothing else the end game changes. Your disconnect appears to be thinking that the challange of getting skills, unlike when you a lvl normal class, isnt an endgame goal, but an obligatory step you take. As the skills will be 'handed to you', rather than earned.

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Originally Posted by JBee

Congratulations, my first ignore.

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Um ok. Thanks for informing everyone of that and providing great feedback and discussion, I Guess? I mean Cutting bits of my previous posts out of context is a sure way to express a point...I think? Actually I dont even know what point your making, but /thumbsup? You do you?

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

A minor concern of mine is for new players coming into the game who will want to try this out. Mind you, the fact that even though it's going to be an available job in ARR it won't be until after the base story is complete offsets much of it, since by nature of the quest progression you'll be required to have at least one other job leveled to 50. Even so, I hope they make the terms of BLU being a limited job very explicitly clear in-game. It'd be a shame for some poor newbie to try to take time to level up BLU, hoping to make it a main job, only to find out they can't do level roulettes or use Duty Finder, and will likely be hindered trying to use the job to make any kind of post-2.0 progress without a good and diligent set of friends to take them through. Again, I don't see it being a widespread problem, but still a possibility that could discourage some new players.

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I guess the "can't do roulettes" thing is why it's locked behind completing MSQ. It would be worse if a newbie picks it up, levels it during the early game, then gets to Sastasha and... no, sorry, you can't come in here. Please go pick up another class and level it to 15 to continue.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

If you TRULY and DEEPLY believe that to be the case, unsub. Show them you do not approve of this level of disrespect to the player base by voicing your opinion, and then following it up with actual meaningful action. 'Cause frankly, a lot of the "Slapping people in the face" crowd are complaining about something as if its a dire terrible effect, but arent willing to do anything meaningful about it. So it comes across as hyperbole and knee jerk reactions.

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AMEN, I will not be subscribing until this class gets up to snuff. I WILL NOT be paying SE to test out a job that has no certainty of ever being able to do end game current content. It is 2018 and we have to fight to get a class to use something as basic as random dungeon finder. There are too many gaming alternatives out there to spend time and money on something that may never even come true. I would have continued to do the same predictable gameplay loop of a grind that FFXIV is if I could have done it as a Blue Mage. Unfortunately, I'll continue to be a player who this game probably isn't for and as someone who has put several years into the game, am truly saddened by the information we have now. I hope I'm wrong, I'd be the first one smashing that subscibe button.

But with the current information we have now, and with the remaining days left of my subscription I will leave this feedback on the forums.

In good conscious I can't continue to support this game with a subscription.

I think where SE made its biggest mistake is when the announced it as a job to begin with. Blue in the state it is isn't a job it's a side event.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Once you get all classes to 70. Then what?

I can play them on end game content

Once you get all your stuff geared, then what?

I know gear won't step me back from doing the content - I can even somehow push my performance even further, which will help if i'm in a party with "new" player (raid/enrage problematic)

Once you own all the items at Gold Saucer, then what?
Gold Saucer are also mini-game.

Once you beat the final tier of a Savage Raid, then what?
I do again until I'm bored of it and this is still a weekly cotent to do ?

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Your example are just bad.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Youre not supposed to be maining BLU.

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Assuming you actually like DRK and main it because it is a beloved job, how would you feel if it was made a limited job instead of a full one? DRK was introduced as a limited job that allowed the player to do fun little open world content where they hunt down corrupt clergyman ala Assassin Creed Style. But because DRKs sacrifice HP for one strong attack, they aren't fit for normal content, so they are excluded from the DF and will only have their level capped raised in patches after the next expansion. You get to be that DRK class you like so much, but you aren't supposed to main it. It's side content and you really shouldn't complain about it. At least the class exists and it would be impossible to balance around the mechanic of using HP to attack.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Your example are just bad.

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Except nothing's stopping you from continuing to have fun with BLU after you collected all the skills.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I do again until I'm bored of it

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Why are people playing BLU somehow exempt from this? If you can keep raiding Savage after getting every reward you could get out of it, why can't you keep playing BLU after you've gotten every skill?

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Originally Posted by Kogasan

I think where SE made its biggest mistake is when the announced it as a job to begin with. Blue in the state it is isn't a job it's a side event.

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Important question: when and how did they first say blue mage was coming? I know there was confusion on the Saturday night about it being announced as a "limited job" and what that would mean, but prior to that (as far as I'm aware) we only knew it was coming because of the leaks - and they said nothing about the nature of it, just that the job was coming.

So while they still might not have handled it as well as they should have, particularly once the entire fandom was sure it was happening, the hype-and-collapse isn't 100% their fault.

They still probably should have switched the order of the reveal - "we have some really cool solo content coming soon... it's blue mage!" would have prevented the excited period where blue mage was confirmed but not yet explained.

Given the concerns the devs brought up about the job, I can't imagine that BLU will ever be allowed into end game content. Either they'll impose further restrictions on it, to keep it from entering the most current raids/dungeons, or they'll simply keep the job capped at a level below everyone else's max.

So far the only content we know for sure that BLU will be allowed to do is old instances and the Masked Carnival. The absolute minimum they can do to ensure BLU isn't DOA is to give Masked Carnival meaningful rewards (achievements/titles aren't going to cut it).

My personal hope for the job is that they can make it a true solo class. Even if it's never allowed into current end game content, there would still be value in a job that's actually able to solo things. I'd love to, for example, go as my Blue Mage into old EX primal fights and farm mounts on my own. It would require a lot of work to make some of those fights soloable (probably way more work than it would have taken to make BLU as a standard job) but if SE can make it happen, then I'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

There is no way around this. You either dumb it down and dissatisfy the players because it loses its identity, or you create its own content that can be played on the side

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I keep seeing this idea thrown around (by other players and the devs) and I have no idea where it came from. FFXI was the only game to give Blue Mages hundreds of spells that they could mix and match. You know how many enemy skills Kimahri could learn? 12! And, okay, fair enough, Kimahri is more of a hybrid BLU/DRG. But Quina is a Blue Mage through and through, and s/he only learns 24 blue magic spells. Even the original Blue Mage from FFV could only learn 30 spells! Compare that Paladin's 29 current abilities (not even counting Role Actions) and you begin to see how saying Blue Mage getting stripped of its identity is a ridiculous concept.

The other argument I keep seeing is, "It would just be Black Mage but with different spell names!" You could boil down any of the classes to that base level, if you really wanted to. PLD, WAR and DRK just hold hate and mitigate damage with different named abilities that all do essentially the same thing. But, of course, there are differences, and those differences in gameplay and aesthetics are enough to make us prefer playing one over another.

I have no idea what Blue Mage's particular gimmick could have been, but then I never would have predicted Red Mage's mana gauge either. As long as I was still able to use Mighty Guard and 1,000 Needles, I wouldn't mind being lumped into the Magic Ranged DPS category, or any other of the preset roles.