Dark Knight Current State

Hi everyone!!

I’ve been gone for a VERY long time. I played consistently through ARR, took a break until HW came out, played for 2-3 months, then just came back again. I’ve completed SB MSQ, I chose DRK to take to level 70 (I’m not huge on min/maxing multiple classes), and I’m getting feedback from other players that DRK can’t be MT in Omega or even in the Ivalice raids..I was talking to some players on Mateus and everyone keeps telling me that DRK is the worst tank, they’re so bad, I should switch to WAR or PLD..

I keep looking online for a comprehensive list of what makes DRK soooo bad, but I just keep reading very generalized “The other two tanks are better” statements with no real supporting information. I like DRK, it makes sense to me, and most of the time I don’t feel like I struggle. However, and this may not be specific to DRK, in end game dungeons (level 70 ones), I don’t die but I spend a good portion of fights at about 25%-40% HP. Mind you I don’t belong to an FC and don’t have friends that play, and I ONLY do duty finder. I just feel squishy..

While DRK definitely has issues and is technically the worst due to several little factors of potency or skill function, its really not that far behind the others, over all tank balance is probably the best its ever been.
DRK is clunkier to play, and so its more difficult to play well. With enough practice you can still perform well as a DRK providing you enjoy spamming Dark Arts.

If you're feeling squishy:
1. Make sure you've got the best gear you can get.
2. Practice using cooldowns at appropriate times. Not so simple, but its one of the most important things to learn as a tank so that you can progress to leaving tank stance. DRK actually has some of the best ones in Dark Mind and The Blackest Night, but you'll need all your role actions too.
3. Avoid White Mages! (jk)

DRK can totally be mt in Ivalice, not so sure about Omega, at least for pugs.
But one of my FC members is an awesome DRK and I once saw her solo Midgardsormr (normal) after the rest of us died, so with DRK its really down to player skill, it just has a bit of a higher skill ceiling.

Thanks!!

I am pretty good at using my CDs, except Sole Survivor, I usually use that too early, and don’t get the bonus from my target dying while it’s active. I have no issues with spamming Dark Arts..in fact, I assumed I was using it too much. My rotation is essentially one full rotation of my enmity combo (with dark arts), then I start with blood price and the aoe that does damage over time. Then spam dark arts and my mana steal/life steal combo. EVERY action I make I try to make sure I use DA first.

There is one ability that I am not sure about, the AoE that heals me when I use dark arts. The potency is low, and the heal is minimal (unless there are a BUNCH of enemies), I use it very rarely, and kind of don’t even want it on my hotbars lol...

DRK is fully capable of MTing anything in the game and I have MTed all the Ivalice raids and Omega as DRK with no problem, although I admit I am fond of OTing them and putting my ability to cast TBN on the MT to good use.
While DRK definitely has issues that need to be addressed and I could see how they could hold the mantle of being the "worst" of the 3 tanks currently, there is very little in this game that is so demanding that it puts DRK into a position of not being up to the task at hand. Sure some tanks may shine a bit brighter at stuff, but DRK can still get the job done and should never be excluded from a group.

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

There is one ability that I am not sure about, the AoE that heals me when I use dark arts. The potency is low, and the heal is minimal (unless there are a BUNCH of enemies), I use it very rarely, and kind of don’t even want it on my hotbars lol...

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The ability you are talking about, Abyssal Drain, is probably one of the most used abilities in a DRK's arsenal for large group pulls.
For starters, it is an enmity generation ability like Unleash but the damage to mp cost is better whereas Unleash has better enmity to mp. Basically, you can use Unleash during a pull to get initial group agro and then keep up the damage and enmity with Abyssal Drain. If you are cycling TBN and Quietus to keep your MP up, you should have enough MP to pretty much spam Abyssal Drain until the pack is whittled down or dead. Since almost all other AoE damage abilities are gated by a cooldown time or Blood, Abyssal is your main go to for AoE damage, not including Salted Earth of course which you should just be keeping up.
As for Abyssal Drain's Dark Arts effect, yeah it sucks that it doesn't get the regular damage boost that it gives to other AoE abilities but the heal should not be discounted. Basically you only want to use DA with it if there are a lot of enemies and the incoming damage is high enough that you want to give your healer a bit more of a cushion to help them out, otherwise just save your MP for more regular Abyssals.
Lastly, in regards to it's "low potency", it is in-line with the other tank spammable AoE attacks with Abyssal having a potency of 120, Overpower having a potency of 130 and Total Eclipse having a potency of 110. While your non-AoE abilities may have bigger numbers attached to them, hitting 3 enemies for 120 potency each with a single attack will always be more damage dealt in total than hitting a single enemy for 300 potency with a comboed Soul Eater.

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

My rotation is essentially one full rotation of my enmity combo (with dark arts), then I start with blood price and the aoe that does damage over time. Then spam dark arts and my mana steal/life steal combo. EVERY action I make I try to make sure I use DA first.

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If we are talking about boss fights, start them off with a DAed Plunge because it is a little extra initial enmity boost and gets you on the boss as soon as possible. Hit DA right before you go to engage the boss and then hit Plunge as soon as you are in range to be able to use it. From there I usually cycle straight into 2 DA boosted Power Slash combos, weaving Blood Price activation between Hard Slash and Spinning Slash in the first combo. I find that 2 DAed enmity combos is usually enough to last pretty much the whole fight without having to resort to using your enmity combo again. If you are with a good group that knows how to control their enmity and you are doing an 8-man with a co-tank that knows how to Provoke->Shirk to pad your enmity, you can trim down the initial enmity combos to 1 or even forgo them altogether.
From there I normally drop tank stance, pop Blood Weapon and just unload my big hit DPS abilities like DA Carve & Spit, however it is not advised to drop tank stance until you are comfortable tanking and with the fight.

I would also advise against trying to DA "EVERY action" as you will likely burn through your MP too quickly and not keep a comfortable reserve for TBN and DAing Carve & Spit as soon as it is off cooldown.
You want to use DA as much as possible but not so much that you leave yourself MP starved most of the time.
I would suggest a priority system for what to use DA on.
In boss/single-target fights: Carve and Spit always gets DA priority since the damage boost it gets from DA is much greater than other single-target abilities, 350 potency (or ~275 if you factor the MP gain from the non DAed version) vs. 140. After that it will depend on the situation. If I am out of tank stance or I need an extra enmity boost, I tend to give priority to Plunge. If I am in tank stance I tend to give Soul Eater priority for the tiny bit extra to the self-heal. Asides from that it doesn't matter much as it will just be a flat +140 potency gain per DA, so I just slip them in wherever.
In mass pulls: Dark Passenger get high or top priority for DA because of the massive damage boost in comparison to other AoE abilities as well as the extra blind effect. Asides from that you may want to DA Abyssal for the reason I already went over, but mainly your MP will be spent pumping out more Abyssals and not into DAs. If you are absolutely brimming over with MP and need to burn some off so that you don't fill your pool and waste MP gain, add DA to Quietuses.

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

I am pretty good at using my CDs, except Sole Survivor, I usually use that too early, and don’t get the bonus from my target dying while it’s active.

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Try to time it where the mob you are using it on is just about to die. If I am worried that it may expire just a little before the mob dies, I will throw a little extra focused dps at them with things like Carve & Spit to finish them off more quickly.

While you get more resources back if the target dies in the allotted time, you still get something back when the effect ends. Because of that, unless timing for an add to pop and get killed, you should for the most part just keep Sole Survivor on cooldown during a boss fight for the little extra healing and resources it gives. If possible try to sync it up somewhat with your Blood Price/Blood Weapon uses so that you get that little extra MP boost during your BP/BW window. Alternatively you can time it to coincide with a tank buster so you get a nice little heal to help your healer out a bit. Basically just make sure you are putting it to use during boss fights, even ones without adds, and not letting it go to waste.

right now DRK represent the bare minimun, the job himself is not bad to cover his basic dutys, DRK mitigation is on par of the other 2 and is a bit better on fights with magic TB if we are talking off-grit gameplay, his dps is ok right now a bit better that PLD but still worse that WAR and his utility its just the worse no matter what compared what the other 2 can bring.

why is DRK worse that the other 2?
- well primary is gameplay, way more effort for lesser reward, the job have to dealt with clunkyness here and there betwen double and triple-weaving to MP and blood overflowing without any way to prevent it.

- his tools at exception of dark mind and TBN are worse versions of the other 2, shadow wall is shorter and don't hit back like vengeance for example (still his overall mitigation is good), plunge have shorter range to Onslaught and you can't use it as a gap closer without losing dps, ect ect.

- the self healing is just bad for a job that force a healing check with living dead, the job can't sustain himself if anything go wrong like the other 2 can do, you can't literaly use living dead wihout a healer and you can't self sustain at the same level of the other 2 aka clemency spam, hallowed ground,holmgang, innerbeast spam/equilibrium in the case of emergency.

- his utility the blackest night don't offer much, intervetion and cover are just infinitely better, and there is no situations where a single target shield can offer a better reward that a aoe shield like shake it off/divine veil with are god for progresion, and PLD tools cover far better single target mechanics.

- DRK have the most problems to fight against push back mechanics since plunge have to be on coldown to keep you dps high and rarely sync with any of those (you can delay it but most of the time is better sprint and you will loose dps for it) plus his range is shorter that Onslaught making it even harder to use it properly depending of the strength of the push back.

- living dead as i say before its just a dead sentence outside of planned uses if you healers don't notice, and is literaly useless outside of partys or situations with pugs where a healer or the only healer die, you just will die anyway, and you don't have anything to recover from it by you own hand.

- DRK buffs (blood weapon/delirium) don't sync at all with party buffs (trick attack, battle litany, ect) and you dps is more sustained that the other 2 with all the downsides that means.

- reactivate grit is a instan huge dps lose, PLD suffer too from this but is DRK the one that have tools behind it (blood price, soul eater self healing) and lock blood weapon making the job a lot slowler compared to off-grit gameplay.

in resume DRK have to dealt with all of this, the job in raid enviroment works properly for say something and despite still being worse for his utility and his dps is not high enough to compensate it the job can clear everything and is pretty fun to play if you don't mind the dark arts spam plus his aoe sinergy on dungeons is the best and feels pretty rewarding, you can go with DRK anywhere you want, again its cover the minimun requeriments perfectly but WAR and PLD are more rewarding for less effort, just overall better and his combo have no match.

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

Thanks!!

I am pretty good at using my CDs, except Sole Survivor, I usually use that too early, and don’t get the bonus from my target dying while it’s active. I have no issues with spamming Dark Arts..in fact, I assumed I was using it too much. My rotation is essentially one full rotation of my enmity combo (with dark arts), then I start with blood price and the aoe that does damage over time. Then spam dark arts and my mana steal/life steal combo. EVERY action I make I try to make sure I use DA first.

There is one ability that I am not sure about, the AoE that heals me when I use dark arts. The potency is low, and the heal is minimal (unless there are a BUNCH of enemies), I use it very rarely, and kind of don’t even want it on my hotbars lol...

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DRK Main here who plays in Savage. DRK is fine, few things to note though

1. You need to put in more mechanical effort to do well (I.E High APM)
2. When You're tanking in general on a boss you should turn Grit off after 1/2 Aggro combo's to use blood weapon
3. General rule I like to use, dont bottom on mana, you dont need to dark arts every ability, only ability you NEED to DA is Carve and Spit, the rest you can choose not too as long as you dont overflow on mana.
4. Sole Survivor: The Death Bonus is nice, but not necessary, just throw that shit out on CD, Holding onto it for the death bonus is rarely worth it.
5. In aoe dungeon pulls spam Blackest night, Quietus when available and spam DA Abyssal Drain, you should have plenty of mana, can also throw in Dark passenger if you have enough mana for it.

There's some basic, hope you enjoy the class more

I wouldn't trust the opinion of the general populace of Mateus, I should know.

Anyways, people who spout there are no merits to DRK don't really know the class, and I'd argue don't really know the role. Previous to 4.2 buffs, it was thoroughly and meticulously calculated that DRK was on par with every other tank in terms of mitigation. Post-4.2, where you have insane buffs to DM and a 2 minute Shadow Wall, there really should be no second-guessing this time around. In terms of damage, it's currently projected as the strongest tank due to itemization options.

So, good on damage? Check. Good on mitigation? Double check.

Why do people complain? Because """"utility."""" There's this obsession with the idea that every job needs to interact with the party in order to be considered good, thinking a shield worth 10% HP on everyone is going to save the day and make you a hero. Heck, the parties that lock out DRK in favor of PLD are most likely too dumb to even make use of what little PLD brings.

Most of the stigma surrounding DRK is due to unwarranted fear mongering. Stay woke!

Any Tank can MT just fine and generally doesn't matter in most situations.

WAR is a better MT but doesn't mean other 2 can't or does it designates war to MT slot all the time if im war and the PLD/DRK wants to MT they are more then welcome and vice versa when im PLD/DRK if WAR wants to OT.


If you are a casual player it doesnt matter too much what state the class is in, if you like the class then keep playing what you like.

Whoever told you drk cant tank some 24 man dungeon 40 ilvls after it release is stupid. All 3 tanks can tank all savage tier raids without breaking a sweat as has already been stated. Someone who says drk 'cant' do X content is full of it. If you want to talk about meta compositions and getting 99% on an illegal parsing site, then you start to have a discussion about min maxing the tank role and drk slips down a notch, but drk is fully capable and playable at any level in its current state. If you rank the tanks it is last, but that is a completely different statement than what your informants have been telling you.

It's spammy with Dark Arts, but playable. There are some definite gripes I have about it, it could be better, but it can clear everything.

Given that there's an entire thread previously dedicated to this on the front page of the forums, I'm guessing that the answer to your question is inside here. And here. And here.

As far as dungeons are concerned, DRK is really fun. There's a lot of interplay between abilities and resources. Blood, MP, and Lifesteal all build off of each other, and you're overflowing in resources. TBN, Quietus, Blood Weapon, and Abyssal Drain all play off of each other. If DRK played in single target anything like it does in AoE, it would be another thing entirely. The job that really suffers in this category is actually PLD. I know a few people like the defensive potential of Clemency and block, but I really hope that this area of their kit gets re-evaluated in the next expansion.

As far as raid content is concerned, all three tanks have been viable throughout this expansion. They were all viable at launch, when a vocal minority of WAR mains complained about "utility" and being a bit behind in dps. They were all viable before the completely unnecessary WAR rework in 4.2, when tank balance was at its absolute worst. You don't need to be particularly observant to see why change was necessary.

The message in 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, and now 4.4 has always been the same. If you like a job, and you're good at it, you will find groups who want you, and you will clear content on it.

Change is difficult, though. The devs have found a formula that seems to work in the short term, so they've stuck with it. Why experiment if it seems to produce results? 1-2 dungeons, 1 primal, 4 disconnected raid bosses per patch. Grind fates for widgets/light to build a redundant relic. People like WAR? Promote WAR to promote tanking. Give everyone more Fell Cleaves. Turn every tank into an inferior WAR clone. Excitement ensues.

The problem is that it gets old, at 6 years and counting. MMOs are built around a revolving door model, but they still need to adapt, evolve, and re-invent themselves in order to keep their playerbase. The formula is getting old. The dominant jobs are getting old. It's time for a change. And the starting point is to break down the systematic advantages that make certain jobs perennially dominant and make room for more unique and varied job identities.

For me it was locking blood price behind grit and the loss of dark dance and 3.0 reprisal that killed it for me....

DRK had lots of great synergies in 3.0 that they gutted in 4.0. Right now my main gripe is that it just doesn’t feel good anymore. Of course my view differs from those that started with DRK in 4.0 but I feel a sense of loss losing those abilities and TBN and the blood abilities didn’t make up for it.

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Originally Posted by Phileas

For me it was locking blood price behind grit and the loss of dark dance and 3.0 reprisal that killed it for me....

DRK had lots of great synergies in 3.0 that they gutted in 4.0. Right now my main gripe is that it just doesn’t feel good anymore. Of course my view differs from those that started with DRK in 4.0 but I feel a sense of loss losing those abilities and TBN and the blood abilities didn’t make up for it.

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Basically what you said plus the loss of potential combining of 2 weaponskills(Scourge and Delirium) and I know people like Scourge for it's animation but I prefered the old Delirium because of animation but it got relegated to Cross Role Silence that doesn't even do damage, along with a bunch DRK abilities relagated to Cross Role abilities that do no damage and are just there to make for the fact the devs needed to fill in space for cross role because the suits told them to...

Locking Blood Price behind Grit makes sense though.

You basically have either Price or Weapon depending on if youre in tank stance or not.
The former gains mp by getting hit (tank) the latter gains mp by hitting (dps).

Now if they could be consolidated into the same skill so I'm not gimped by the macro I made to combine then, that'd be great.

I MT DRK on all the raids trials etc. even in the savage and extreme's currently out. I enjoy the rotation of the class and to me its more fun the PLD and WAR, but that's preference. Any class is viable, there are just those elitists who have to have their opinion and want to force everyone to it. Dont worry about what others say, play how and what you want. I suggest finding a good FC and friends and playing with them, even make friends cross world. I'm on Couerl so i can't help with Mateus groups, but i'm sure there are good ones. or hit me up as a friend in game and you can run stuff with me and my fc.

I play both Dark Knight and Paladin. Even though Dark Knight can tank any content out there right now, including savage raids, I prefer to bring my Paladin because the DPS is about the same on both, but Paladin just brings more to the raid in terms of utility.

Feeling squishy as a DRK could be from a few things such as low gear item level on either you or the healer, or it could be the healer is focusing at dps and reacting to your healthbar when it gets a bit lower.

The only thing honestly wrong with DRK is the fact that when it comes to heavy partywide damage, they aren't able to mitigate them like Divine Veil or Shake It Off can. they only have Reprisal which any tank can do.

As far as damage, they're honestly fine and are actually coming close to WAR in damage if you look at the top damage dealing tanks for 4.4 Alphascape raid tier.

Gameplay wise, they can feel a bit clunky with the heavy reliance of needing to excessively use Dark Arts to buff the next skill, but during Blood Weapon can be difficult to double weave such as Dark Arts+Carve and Spit or Dark Arts+Dark Passenger. Then the mini game of managing Mana can be a bit daunting while trying to optimize yourself.

drk should be the most rewarding tank with its "difficulty" compred to the other tanks.., like making drk have the highest single target damage of all tanks..

(imo war should have the highest aoe damage but not single target.., its more befitting for a class that goes "beserk" to thrash blindly thru masses of enemies and therefore have high aoe-damage..., while the drk feels like a class with a more focused / clear killing intent)

I like he idea of the WAR and DRK and how they deal damage. I’m a vet EQ2 player (Shadowknight was the king of AoE’s and self preservation, I had hoped DRK would feel like that.)

I’ve been practicing my rotations, and honestly, now that I’m not trying to weave DA on every hit, I actually feel less pressure, and since I’m not parsing I don’t know how much less DPS I am delivering. Also, knowing about stance dancing (if that’s what you’d call it) makes me feel more useful. I haven’t done Savage yet, but I was doing Alphascape 1-4 today and MT’ed all fights. I started with Grit, and switched out on less threatening parts.

I honestly feel more comfortable now with the class and don’t feel like I am playing a bad class anymore.

I do have questions about TBN though; When do I use it, how do I know when I need to use it, and aside from throwing it on a tank if I am OT to eat a big hit..aside from saving it for emergencies, I just use it to fill up more blood.

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

I like he idea of the WAR and DRK and how they deal damage. I’m a vet EQ2 player (Shadowknight was the king of AoE’s and self preservation, I had hoped DRK would feel like that.)

I’ve been practicing my rotations, and honestly, now that I’m not trying to weave DA on every hit, I actually feel less pressure, and since I’m not parsing I don’t know how much less DPS I am delivering. Also, knowing about stance dancing (if that’s what you’d call it) makes me feel more useful. I haven’t done Savage yet, but I was doing Alphascape 1-4 today and MT’ed all fights. I started with Grit, and switched out on less threatening parts.

I honestly feel more comfortable now with the class and don’t feel like I am playing a bad class anymore.

I do have questions about TBN though; When do I use it, how do I know when I need to use it, and aside from throwing it on a tank if I am OT to eat a big hit..aside from saving it for emergencies, I just use it to fill up more blood.

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TBN is your bread and butter on mitigation you always use it on tank busters with rampart or shadow wall or dark mind every single time, on big aoes you used too if there is no TB before the skill recast.
If you are a OT then is the same, you use it on the MT to help with TB only but is not enterely necesary specially on non savage content except the MT get a vuln stack or something.
Dont use it against auto attacks on single target, is complety a waste and the shield will never pops (on savage can pop but more that half of the time it will be wasted bcs the boss start casting something or doing a mechanic that dont AA you or you will overflow you blood for nothing).
On dungeons you can use it on adds pulls, TBN pops and you can use quietus to recover mana and keep spaming abyssal drain.

For me as much as drk grew on me and I been getting better at it, I really wish they would change drk to a dmg dealing job again. In final fantasy 11 online I was so good at drk and had so much fun cause that much dmg like a dark grim reaper. Anyone else feel this way?

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Originally Posted by spectrabn

For me as much as drk grew on me and I been getting better at it, I really wish they would change drk to a dmg dealing job again. In final fantasy 11 online I was so good at drk and had so much fun cause that much dmg like a dark grim reaper. Anyone else feel this way?

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No and the chance anyone agreeing no matter in how many DRK threads you will post this is close to zero.

Get over it already.

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Originally Posted by spectrabn

For me as much as drk grew on me and I been getting better at it, I really wish they would change drk to a dmg dealing job again. In final fantasy 11 online I was so good at drk and had so much fun cause that much dmg like a dark grim reaper. Anyone else feel this way?

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Every job is a damage dealing job.

If Dark changed to Red and dealt 50% more damage, it would still be awful because the gameplay is stale.

Kabooa, explain what you mean by saying that DRK is “stale”

I know everyone hates on the amount of effort the DRK requires to keep up with the other tanks (so to speak), but I think it’s far from stale.

Personally, I enjoy the resource management, and feel like I’m relatively good at it and TBH everyone says it’s not a good idea to burn through MP, but I can burn through my MP and in 5 seconds have it refilled. I’ve never actually found myself in a spot where I can’t cast the ability that I need when it’s off cool down. I like having access to so many temp buffs, and worst case scenario, I can chain my temp buffs consistently for most boss fights (outside of raids) and make myself MUCH more durable when need be. I don’t always know when to pop living dead, but to be honest, I’ve got a macro that says “I’ll buy us some time. Get the others up and only focus on healing me to 100% once I’ve been reduced to 0%” (not very creative/fun but it works) and if something goes wrong and it’s me and a Healer, I can use that at the last moment, paired with my Mitigation buffs, and it’s usually enough for the Healer to get everyone up (or at least the second Healer) and feels pretty darn good when you help pull off a save like that. In AoE fights, you become an endless font of MP (blood weapon [or Blood Price if you’re getting beat up], salted earth, dark passenger [the blind also makes you more durable], abyssal drain, and spam quietus) using that combo you’ll never run out of MP, and you can even spam DA>Abyssal Drain for sustainability.

I think the class is FAR from stale, but after talking to people here I can’t deny that there is less team synergy/utility than the other tanks. Maybe add more AoE fights that are prolonged just a little? Add a DoT to the DRK maybe, and some sort of magic resistance debuff? Like I said, things could be improved, but the class isn’t stale.

*edit*

Sorry, I don’t have an option to edit, I’m on a mobile device.

To be clear, Kabooa I wasn’t trying to be rude or discredit your opinion. I just wanted to understand it more, because from MY point of view, stale might be the wrong word.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

*edit*
Sorry, I don’t have an option to edit, I’m on a mobile device.

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Just an FYI since I see this quite a bit on the forums. You can edit your posts on a mobile device, you just need to switch from the mobile site to the full site.

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Originally Posted by Grafeit

To be clear, Kabooa I wasn’t trying to be rude or discredit your opinion. I just wanted to understand it more, because from MY point of view, stale might be the wrong word.

Cheers!

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I'll clarify by saying I find -all- the tanks stale, but Dark Knight is the worst offender.

By stale, I mean there are very few moving parts and considerations. They are discount melee Jobs, without positional requirements, and without multiple buff timings to line up with themselves and with others. Where DPS jobs hit their cooldowns according to buff windows, synergy stacking, and pushing the Deeps, half of the Tank's abilities are based around the Boss using a tank buster, a highly telegraphed and strictly scheduled ability.

The three jobs also have very little distinguishing them on a basic level, from each other, and arguably from Melee. An upkeep combo, a spam combo, and a threat combo. Where the Dark Knight falls short is it doesn't even have an upkeep combo (Unless we count Siphon Strike, which is part of the spam combo). Dark Knight does not change much from ARR to SB.

Resource juggling isn't all that engaging anymore since the much needed Dark Knight buffs. You keep 2400 in reserve in case you need to TBN but otherwise you dump all your MP as much as you can, while dumping blood so you don't overcap. The only point where this isn't true is when raid buffs are coming back online.

Activity =/= Engagement. Hitting buttons more often doesn't make the gameplay more engaging.

Well...

When you put it that way, sure, all tanks are stale? I don’t think having a third combo makes the other tanks more engaging? If anything, it’s more muddy to bounce between 3 combos, for no real reason...


Hence why I mentioned more AoE fights, buffs, debuffs, etc..

I think a tank role in any game is stale based on your statement. Give more AoE boss fights, give more of a reason to turn the boss (instead of now, we turn them from the party, and then they mem-wipe or throw random AoEs at random players..) otherwise, as it is now, an AoE boss fight means the MT doesn’t do much, and OT just snaps aggro and pulls the single mob away from the boss and then it’s business as usual.

Mind you, I came from EQ2 (Vanilla to Thalumbra) and even in EQ2 (arguably a grandfather of MMO’s) a tank stands still holding aggro from DPS Machines...the mechanics always fall on DPS, but that’s not the DRK being stale per se, it’s just a lack of tank mechanics. Sure, occasionally we eat an AoE to spread damage, but other than that, we stand still and try to survive doing moderate damage.

I think what it is, it's that DRK is very much so a subjective kind of class that requires an acquired taste. Either you enjoy high APM activity, or you don't. Either you enjoy having several rotations to consider, or you don't. You either enjoy having to put in thought about optimization, or you don't. The list could go on, but I'll give my own personal view as an example:

I come from playing DRK in heavensward, where DRK had numerous oGCDs to use, some that could only be activated on random procs. I hated it and thought it was just a lot of RNG-based button-bloat, but others liked it and cited it as engaging. So when the switch was made to consolidate all those oGCDs into simply Dark Arts, it was a change I much appreciated, but again, others will tell you an experience like "the job was stripped naked!"

A lot depends on how your tastes are. But I'll drop the veil and say if you enjoy SB DRK, you have good taste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dark Knight does not change much from ARR to SB.

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Dark Knight was in ARR?

Unless you were going from 30 to 50 Fate'ing in Western Coerthas, I would think you went through ARR stuff as a Dark Knight.