Stormblood's missed opportunity.

Does anyone feel like the dev team missed the opportunity to reinstate a Hamlet like system or something like FFXI's campaign battles?

I mean sure, it probably would've been hell on the servers, but the areas in Stormblood such as the Fringes, the Lochs, and Yanixa maps seem to lack that feeling of there being a war/liberation effort taking place.

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One thing that I do want to clarify is that I recognize that XIV has some serious server stability issues and so something like what I mentioned up above would be near impossible with the current server set up. However if the server were or are able to handle this one day then who knows what can happen.

I would love to see something like beseiged, but reality is, I don't think it can be done in open world. We saw what happened with the ixion fate. However, I think Eureka is the place they could do it since you already have a player capped instance.

...maybe I'm a bit cynical - and I actually havent played FFXI, so I'm not sure what Hamlet Defense actually was like in that game (even though I heared great things), but... we got Eureka which was supposed to be "FFXI-like" content.
And it didnt/doesnt work - for several reasons. Some of them are actually variations of "this content is just badly designed", BUT lets please not forget that it "worked" in FFXI because that game worked differently in regards to the battle system and gear progression and so on.

I might not know enough about Hamlet to actually make a call on wether or not that could work in FFXIV, but at this point I'd very much like the devs to developed content for this game, playing to the strengths of it. After Eureka I'm very sceptical about FFXI-insipired content - something that was great 10 years ago, might not be so great anymore now.

So, no, I dont feel they've missed a chance there - maybe they've missed a chance to make the maps feel more "alive" or like a battlefield, but I dont believe that asking for FFXI 2.0 is the answer here. They need to come up with ideas that actually fit this game - and I cant tell wether or not a tweaked Hamlet could do that, but I'm pretty sure that open world content that needs a lot of people participating just doesnt work in FFXIV. Sitting around, waiting for something to happen might have been great in FFXI, but not here.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

...maybe I'm a bit cynical - and I actually havent played FFXI, so I'm not sure what Hamlet Defense actually was like in that game (even though I heared great things), but... we got Eureka which was supposed to be "FFXI-like" content.
And it didnt/doesnt work - for several reasons. Some of them are actually variations of "this content is just badly designed", BUT lets please not forget that it "worked" in FFXI because that game worked differently in regards to the battle system and gear progression and so on.

I might not know enough about Hamlet to actually make a call on wether or not that could work in FFXIV, but at this point I'd very much like the devs to developed content for this game, playing to the strengths of it. After Eureka I'm very sceptical about FFXI-insipired content - something that was great 10 years ago, might not be so great anymore now.

So, no, I dont feel they've missed a chance there - maybe they've missed a chance to make the maps feel more "alive" or like a battlefield, but I dont believe that asking for FFXI 2.0 is the answer here. They need to come up with ideas that actually fit this game - and I cant tell wether or not a tweaked Hamlet could do that, but I'm pretty sure that open world content that needs a lot of people participating just doesnt work in FFXIV. Sitting around, waiting for something to happen might have been great in FFXI, but not here.

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Hamlet was from FFXIV 1.0.

I love events like these, and this year's The Rising event really got my nostalgic juices flowing. It was disappointing that it was relegated to an instance, though. Everything in this game is instanced, and the world feels very barren as a result.

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Originally Posted by Reyn

Hamlet was from FFXIV 1.0.

I love events like these, and this year's The Rising event really got my nostalgic juices flowing. It was disappointing that it was relegated to an instance, though. Everything in this game is instanced, and the world feels very barren as a result.

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Oh, my mistake - doesnt change the fact though that I dont believe open world content like that will really work in this game. And that nostalgia is getting the better of people who want it back.
I might be biased, because I already dislike FATEs so much, but those are actually kinda showing me why this doesnt work. I remember to many times when it was 3 in the morning and Odin or Ixion spawned - and it was only 10 people around. I'm still missing that achievment from the Coeurl-Queen-FATE because is just impossible to get her to spawn and have enough people around.
And sometimes (...or actually quite often) I want to play at 3 am and I want to make progress at 3 am. Or progress on some old stuff - Odin-FATEs are impossible on my server now, because no one cares anymore.
Instances solve this problem - even at 3 am I'm finding enough people for most content. Even Sastasha gets people through roulettes.

I get the whole "the world feels barren"-thing and its a bit sad, granted... but I take it over the alternative every day. Personally, I dont want open world content that really has an impact on ones progression. I dont want to rely on "hopefully are enough people in this area right now".

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Sounds to me like the developers should create less content for the outside world based around FATEs and more functional content that can work without it. But would something like that work in this game though? For them to make something like Eureka be basically FATE dependent in order to grind through its content it seems like it's either impossible for them to do it or that they just don't want to waste time implementing such content.

Personally, if a Hamlet system were introduced into Stormsblood I would actually have liked it that way. Without the FATEs, I mean.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

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Sounds to me like the developers should create less content for the outside world based around FATEs and more functional content that can work without it. But would something like that work in this game though? For them to make something like Eureka be basically FATE dependent in order to grind through its content it seems like it's either impossible for them to do it or that they just don't want to waste time implementing such content.

Personally, if a Hamlet system were introduced into Stormsblood I would actually have liked it that way. Without the FATEs, I mean.

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I think the biggest issue with Open World content is that SE doesn't give players an incentive to participate in whatever content exists. No one cares about Fates outside of Eureka anymore because there's a bunch of alternative ways to earn xp now. I enjoy bringing up topics like this, because it makes you wonder what this game could or could've been. Sadly, it's also a reminder of how much the dev team has backed themselves into a corner with the game's current design.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Oh, my mistake - doesnt change the fact though that I dont believe open world content like that will really work in this game. And that nostalgia is getting the better of people who want it back.

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I used both 1.0's Hamlet defense and XI's campaign battles as an example, but even with them I wondered why something like that wasn't added. It definitely helps add to the immersion/illusion that we're in the middle of fighting with the Garlean's to liberate Doma and Ala Mhigo. My biggest worry would be like you stated, player's needing incentive to continue doing the content. Players would need something so that the content doesn't run dry after everyone has gotten what they need from it. Something like area buffs such as increased exp from normal mobs/fates, increased exp for crafters and gathers, stat buffs and so forth. The only way to keep that up would be for players to continue participating in the content.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

we got Eureka which was supposed to be "FFXI-like" content.

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Any serious discussion about Eureka/open world/etc. begins by forgetting the imposture from Yoshida that Eureka is supposedly inspired from FFXI.

Also, the excuse of "it was in FFXI so it can't work now" needs to stop. FFXI wasn't that special. It was "just" common RPG features pushed on a persistent online world, and it tried to make use of this persistent world. The problem isn't with FFXI, but with FFXIV who pretends to be a "mmorpg" but doesn't make good use of its persistent world. We just login in a pretty chat room and the true game only happens in instances.

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Originally Posted by Evogolist

Does anyone feel like the dev team missed the opportunity to reinstate a Hamlet like system or something like FFXI's campaign battles?

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Yes, this. And it is fervently hoped that they could introduce something similar to FFXI's Campaign in 5.0 (if we could use our GC squadrons, even better)... it would be perfect for the lore.

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Originally Posted by Evogolist

I think the biggest issue with Open World content is that SE doesn't give players an incentive to participate in whatever content exists. No one cares about Fates outside of Eureka anymore because there's a bunch of alternative ways to earn xp now. I enjoy bringing up topics like this, because it makes you wonder what this game could or could've been. Sadly, it's also a reminder of how much the dev team has backed themselves into a corner with the game's current design.

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I'd not really say it's the devs that backed themselves into a corner so much as the players will always take the more effective route. 2.x saw F.A.T.E.s as the absolute best way to gain EXP outside of the MSQ. Back when you could farm the adds in that one F.A.T.E. in Northern Thanalan and get a chain bonus of 400+ easy. F.A.T.E.s worked back then. However, since those days, more story quests have come out, as well as dungeons, with a need to always have players fill them for the newer players. This by default shifts the focus away from open world to instances. Just like now, as much as I hate Eureka, I feel it's the most effective to farm tomestones for the amount of work required (would normally say this goes to the two newest dungeons because of 50 tomestones a run, but some parties really cause me to work).

The F.A.T.E. system isn't bad (let me clarify this; having a system that has an indicator of a spontaneous open world event on the map where everyone can participate because of level syncing), but that's not to say people have grown to despise them because of the sheer RNG behind the relic's atma and crystal grinds in ARR and HW. Players don't generally bother with content if there is no incentive behind it and F.A.T.E.s have always been a way to grind for EXP (which has since been shifted to other sources), tied to relic (again, shifted to other sources) and otherwise simply have no incentive. Even with the special enemies that pop up that reward increased EXP.

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Originally Posted by Genz

We just login in a pretty chat room and the true game only happens in instances.

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The 'true game' being what?

A lot of MMOs are mostly dungeons being the content. Open world gets used for open world PvP (does not exist in FFXIV), gathering for crafting, crafting and quests. That's how it is for theme park MMOs, which FFXIV is.

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Originally Posted by Evogolist

I think the biggest issue with Open World content is that SE doesn't give players an incentive to participate in whatever content exists. No one cares about Fates outside of Eureka anymore because there's a bunch of alternative ways to earn xp now. I enjoy bringing up topics like this, because it makes you wonder what this game could or could've been. Sadly, it's also a reminder of how much the dev team has backed themselves into a corner with the game's current design.

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From what you've told me, I can imagine the game being far better off then it's current incarnation if only Yoshi-P and his team were to better divide resources to better develop other areas of the game instead of using them in order to hash out the same dungeon, raid and such rotation content we've been getting for years now and especially wasting them trying to add "new and innovative" content in the form of already proven failure entertainment systems within the game, such as Diadem.

From what I can tell from what other people have said on multiple occasions within the forums, Ultmate is probably their only truly success piece of new and innovative content without producing such a heavy backlash compared to Eureka, in which the latter only brought about some success to due to some people claiming to have liked it and especially with the current expansion's relic's being held hostage within, forcing people whom want the special gear/weapons to play it.

If the development team would divert their resources from already overly used and stale areas, such as dungeons and raids and from popularly hated content, such as Eureka into the Open World in order to introduce new content not related in any way to FATEs, such as the Hamlet from 1.0, then the game could possibly begin to feel less stale and start going into the right direction.

I would enjoy seeing something similar to campaign battles. Fates are fun but if I remember correctly (which I might not because it's been more than awhile) campaign was designed more around higher xp rewards for performing a specific job and I think that would present an interesting challenge. Even if I have that completely wrong, something more to do in the open world would be fun.

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Originally Posted by SugarPuff

I would enjoy seeing something similar to campaign battles. Fates are fun but if I remember correctly (which I might not because it's been more than awhile) campaign was designed more around higher xp rewards for performing a specific job and I think that would present an interesting challenge. Even if I have that completely wrong, something more to do in the open world would be fun.

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I would absolutely love to see something like that added into the game for Open World content! Campaign battles sound like they would definitely get people in Open World to team up and help one another out without the added/forced incentive that is Eureka's relic system.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

If we were to receive less dungeons and raids in exchange for breathing new life back into the game's vastly barren Open World, then I'd definitely be all for it. Especially with less focus on FATEs and more on newer/older and innovative content, such as the Hamlet system from FFXIV 1.0.

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Why do you want to cut content that we only see more of once per patch (dungeons, which we get two of), or raids roughly every 8 months? If you want to have it implemented, ask them for this instead of Diadem / Eureka / FFXI - like content, which is when they experiment with things.

*Looks up what the heck this Hamlet Defense system is.*

So ...

... F.A.T.E.s?

... With a 25 hour combat system and a 50 hour non-combat system?

... I'm sorry, this sounds terrible. F.A.T.E.s already cover the system while Rowena and beast tribes cover the rest of this old system, without needing to babysit a structure.

Hamlet Defense was a special event in the original version of Final Fantasy XIV, in which players of all classes were required to supply the small hamlets around Eorzea and aid them in battles against invading forces of Beastmen.

Just from this alone, lore reasons why it wouldn't exist in Eorzea. Once you're far enough in MSQ, Garleans invading and attacking Ala Mhigo stops making sense. Same for Doma, as we've been pushing them back and/or are currently engaged in more diplomatic approaches. This may make sense in the earlier parts of an expansion, but once we've progressed enough, the system no longer makes sense for it as a persistent activity. It's bad enough there are F.A.T.E.s that already break this, but at least they are largely mutable.

Rewards were calculated by a point system affected by several different factors; certain point thresholds increased the number of chests and chance of getting better items. Hamlet Defense rewarded players with unique "Militia" gear, some of which were amongst the best equipment for their respective slot (specially for crafting and gathering classes), as well as the beast tribe seals which were, at the time, required to begin the Relic Weapon quests.

Reading on how scoring was done, it was not something you really "helped each other out with" but directly competed against your fellow player to score high enough to achieve the good rewards (did have a top 20 contributor score multiplier).

I feel the same. Well, Eureka is new to me so I'll mostly reserve my opinion until after I've actually gotten a into it a bit more, but I think an activity in the open world that rewarded teamwork without making it an absolute necessity would appeal to a lot of people and to some extent promote camaraderie.

Think it's safe to say that the 90's server hardware, spaghetti code, net code and what not makes this nearly impossible.

Forguve me if this is a misunderstanding, I am quite tired as I've just finished a 19hour work day.

While I won't claim to know what the hamlet system was, I was more disappointed on the lopsided focus that is the identity of Stormblood.

Someone mentioned Fates earlier and I can only think of one instance of a Fate changing the world and that is in the Shroud north of Quarymill where you have to take over or defend a base. I wish there were more instances of that.

More notable though, if you wanted to have more content to do via fates that act somewhat like the hamlet system the formula of them has to change on some way I feel and the reward should be lasting. I mean to say that failing a Fate should come with consequence in that it changes the local geographic area with enemy density/level or something.

There's a Fate in the Sea of Clouds about a guy summoning Bismark and you need to end them to prevent a summoning ad per the fate text, but failing the fate doesn't do anything making in inconsequential and just a random event that spawns every 15/45 minutes.

FF11 battles openworld was awsome and i had really the feeling to play WITH others, as summoner my buffs/debuffs were shared with people even if they weren't in my party (certain amount of person around), mobs were tough and we needed to help everyone!

We need that in ff14 sometimes i just feel i play a solo game with lots of npcs. We need adventures!

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Originally Posted by Loki

FF11 battles openworld was awsome and i had really the feeling to play WITH others, as summoner my buffs/debuffs were shared with people even if they weren't in my party (certain amount of person around), mobs were tough and we needed to help everyone!

We need that in ff14 sometimes i just feel i play a solo game with lots of npcs. We need adventures!

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There are a few open world "events" happening in FFXIv that show me that this just doesnt work well within this game.

5 people standing around in the Shroud at 2am looking at the timer of the Odin-FATE ticking down to 25, 20, 15 minutes with no one else showing up, because its 2 am and the people who are online are spread across the world - aswell as the rewards not being worth it anymore.
Me trying to get that TT-card from the Darkscale-FATEs in the Churning Mists - but no one ever showing up for them.
A friend staying up 36 hours to finally get his achievment for the Coeurl-Queen-FATE, because thats how long it took for the whole FATE-chain to complete.
Vendors in Upper LN and Eastern Thanlan not being there during or right after certain FATEs (they only sell minions though).
Severe lag once 40 people are rushing into a giant FATE like Ixion or Odin - not even the servers can handle so many people fighting something!
Complains about "early pulling" with hunt-mobs, because if something doesnt appear at 2 am but rather 8 pm, everyone and their mom thinks that they should be waited for.

I get that those things might sound great on paper and might worked in games that were set up with a different kind of battle system - and had/have a different community, but I dont believe that they'll work on this scale in FFXIV.
We got Eureka for "open world"-content with everyone working together and helping each other - and from what I've heard it worked in Anemos but with Pagos people already arent doing that anymore (with people not going out of their way to raise someone etc.)
This game is extremly focused on instances, because it works. Because it allows you to still play the game at 2 am, thanks to matchmaking.
Personally, I want to "control" my experience within the game as much as possible - and by that I mean: I want to choose what I play and when I play it - and to a degree with whom I play.
The worst part about the ARR-relic for me were the FATEs in the books that made you sit around in one spot from any time between 10 minutes and 6 hours to progress. Same with Pazuzu in Anemos again: Being afk for 1-3 hours, hoping that his window will open, wasnt really fun. I dont want to be lucky enough to stumble across some battle happening in the open world that will give me my progress. If I want to play at 2 am and still get my tomes, I want to queue for expert roulette and get it over with.

And I know that you guys dont want to replace any of our established stuff with some open world battles, but I still dont believe that they will work - for a number of reasons... you cant make permanent changes to the world (at least not relevant ones, having pet-vendors disappear is probably the best you can really do), you need to balance it around a certain number of people that might not be reached (if its to many, the server gets in trouble - if its not enough, the whole thing fails even though everyone present did everything right), you need to keep it relevant throughout the whole game - Darkscale worked GREAT during the first few weeks of HW, because it gave tones of exp and everyone was leveling (and questing in that area). After that... it died down and got pretty much impossible to beat.

I'm not saying its a totally bad idea - but I dont think that it would really work within this game, thanks to how we've been taught the game works, which is instances-based. Personally, I like that over open world content.
I wouldnt mind seeing something like that in an Eureka-style - an instance that everyone, who wants to play content like that, can enter at anytime.
But just in the open world... I see it mainly causing trouble.
Partyl because I just recalled one other annoying thing about the open world content we already have: The interaction with gathering. You can have hunt-mobs and FATEs sit on top of your gathering nodes. So those open world battles would have to happen away from all of those... and they're pretty spread out across the world. Because no, sorry, telling me "Well, if you want your herbs, help us defend this town for the next 2 hours!" isnt a good solution.

Maybe I've just never seen open world content "done right" - but from all that I've seen within FFXIV is incredible hard to get it right in this game. They've groomed a playerbase that isnt used to open world content by now and they did the same to their servers.
Personally, I could see stuff like that happen more easly in yet another instance - wouldnt be oppossed to that, but I dont feel that they desperatly need to put stuff in the open world just for the sake of it. The most annyoing part about maps for me? Traveling from spot to spot. Same with daily hunts - and even A- and S-ranks...
And I probably sound more "bitter" than I should and this is obviously only my opinion on what I like and dislike - but thats why I dont feel like theres anything missing here. Maybe, if they'll ever put it in, I'll be pleasently surprised. But so far all open world content in this game has been more of a chore and not really an enjoyment for me.

I agree with you, actually it wouldn't fit with ff14 but imo the main trouble is the servers which can't manage lots of stuff.....

They should really improve that, i like open world big Fate but as healer when you can't heal your own party members even with a macro cause you can't see them even not on clicking on their names in the party list wtf....it's not fun at all that's why no one do this content.

You can't see ennemies mooves / aoes etc either it's just unplayable and not normal in 2018 for a company like SE

And concerning Eureka i don't call that an open world content, it's just a zerg massiv party, you watch some moovies by following your group.... it's a bit cheap, but just my opinion once again.

Instead of adding content like that, i think SE should really resolve the server trouble.

I am sad that they did not try this system with Eureka..it would have made perfect sense imo..we would have to go and create a base and then defend it from the monsters. It could have been the prototype to test this system for later overworld actions and at least the describtion of it sounds quite fun. (And it has all classes involved which is something Eureka really lacks)