Holy knight

I was just thinking abt this class if thy add this class as tanks i would play it over blue mage if u look at all games u see tht Holy knight is not a pld Holy knight don't need a shield thy can us 1 but thy mostly use a sword and hve awesome parry so i would question this class because there better thn warrior we all should act for this class it need to make its way to the online gaming finally

So let's say they don't use a shield, what makes a Holy Knight different to a Paladin? How would a Holy Knight fit in to the FFXIV universe?

Holy knights in FF are templars, It Will be nice have templars and have more a religius job in the game.

This would either be a Paladin, or a Dark Knight with blue/white animations.

The holy knight i'm talking abt is from tactics tht use judgement blade etc and thy do massive damage aoe

yeah the most overpowered cls in tactics at all... you could solo the game with just Orlando - although he’s pretty cool, how would u balance them in a mmo?

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Originally Posted by Neela

yeah the most overpowered cls in tactics at all... you could solo the game with just Orlando - although he’s pretty cool, how would u balance them in a mmo?

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Just like thy balance every other job

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Originally Posted by Starcake28

Just like thy balance every other job

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so not at all

Holy Knight and Paladin are interchangeable in FF games. In fact, in later FFT games( FFTA), they renamed Holy Knight back into Paladin again. There was no concept of Tanking in FFT, so they made Holy Knight into a DPS. They removed the religious aspect of Paladin in FFXIV because it's an MMO and they didn't want to anchor your character to having fealty to any deity.


Also Requiescat is a nod to Lightning Stab/Hollowed Bolt.

Going back to Templars, it would be cool to have a heavy-armored, javelin-weilding tank in the game. iirc, Tactics A2 had Templars like that.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

Going back to Templars, it would be cool to have a heavy-armored, javelin-weilding tank in the game. iirc, Tactics A2 had Templars like that.

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But DRG wears heavy armour.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But DRG wears heavy armour.

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Chain, they wear chain.

So far we have 4 armor classes, which I'll name as thus

Plate: 100/100 P/MDef. Fending. Paladin / Warrior / Dark Knight wear this.
Chain: 70/50 P/MDef. Maiming. Dragoon wears this.
Leather: 60/60 P/MDef. Strking/Scouting/Aiming. Monk, Ninja, Machinist, Bard wear this.
Cloth: 50/70 P/MDef. Casting/Healing. Casters and healers wear this.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

But DRG wears heavy armour.

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I mean, yes. They do. I never said that they didn't? I suppose my wording might have been a bit off, but I simply meant Templar essentially being a jousting tank like in TA2 might be fun. Our current tanks don't have a ton of weapons diversity atm, since we have two types of sword and an axe (and I suppose the shield if you want to count it). I wasn't trying to suggest there were no other armor-clad spear wielders in the game.

I'd say Plate and Chain were both 'Heavy' amour.
My point is, we already have a spear user, who uses heavy armour, or the dps variant of it at any rate.
We're not likely to get another one.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

My point is, we already have a spear user, who uses heavy armour, or the dps variant of it at any rate.
We're not likely to get another one.

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This is something that always bums me out about this game. I'd love to see a geomancer dps with an axe, a Templar tank with a spear and shield tanks, chemist healers with guns, etc. But nope, can't share weapons with another class.

As for OP, I think holy knight would be awesome, focusing on holy sword skills rather than paladins defenses and wearing drg equivalent armor. AF could be the tabard over armor that the holy knights wear in tactics.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

This is something that always bums me out about this game. I'd love to see a geomancer dps with an axe, a Templar tank with a spear and shield tanks, chemist healers with guns, etc. But nope, can't share weapons with another class.

As for OP, I think holy knight would be awesome, focusing on holy sword skills rather than paladins defenses and wearing drg equivalent armor. AF could be the tabard over armor that the holy knights wear in tactics.

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Yes Holy knight in tactics was awesome this so called pld nothing to Holy knight

This threads grammar is killing me. Please don’t shorten works as if it’s a text message.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

This threads grammar is killing me. Please don’t shorten works as if it’s a text message.

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Welcome to the internet!

This is a game with a lot of players who do not speak English as their first language. If you can still understand what they're saying, I don't think there's an issue.

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Originally Posted by DamianFatale

This threads grammar is killing me. Please don’t shorten works as if it’s a text message.

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Shorten words?

If people are very vocal about it, I guess they could sell some sort of job glamour for skills. Like an entire set. The job doesn't change one bit but the animation do.

However I dunno how much it would cost considering they charge 5€ for a dress. 20€ I guess?

Anyway, it could go this way
DRK - holy theme
PLD - Magitech theme
WAR - no clue

WHM - no clue... Darkness?
SCH - Magitech too (robot fairy!!!)
AST - No more star... Clockwork!

BRD - elemental archer?
MCH - less flashy, some people complained

SMN - no clue except demibaha - > demi Alexander
RDM - replace some elements by others.
BLM - "ice mage" sounds too simple, I guess some sort of void magic, like some sort of dark fire etc.

I mean, while I don't think something like this would ever happen.

To me it seems more likely than them adding a holy dark knight as a new job. (I mean, there's still Templar but I don't forsee any new tank for 6.0, so 7.0 would be a looonng wait) and I don't think they'd go for a theme one of the tank already has (holy). If anything they'd save the spot for a dps as no dps has the holy themed attached to it.

If I recall correctly, Paladin here in FFXIV is actually called "Knight" while having skills like "Hallowed Ground", "Holy Spirit" and "Divine Veil." "Clemency" meaning mercy or merciful while being a healing spell (white magic). "Requiescat" being a prayer for the dead. Pretty sure the holiness is implied.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

"Hallowed Ground", "Holy Spirit" and "Divine Veil." "Clemency" meaning mercy or merciful while being a healing spell (white magic). "Requiescat" being a prayer for the dead. Pretty sure the holiness is implied.

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Yeah, a defense move, a shield, a heal, a prayer. They are definitely holy. However, the ones that OP is referring to did not use any of those and rather used that holy power for magic sword attacks. Really, the paladins in FFTA 1 and 2 have little in common with the holy knight class aside from gear.

I don't see why classes can't share a theme or a common weapon. In fact, it places huge limits on what classes you can have when only 1 class can use a one handed sword, 1 class can use a gun, etc.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

Yeah, a defense move, a shield, a heal, a prayer. They are definitely holy. However, the ones that OP is referring to did not use any of those and rather used that holy power for magic sword attacks. Really, the paladins in FFTA 1 and 2 have little in common with the holy knight class aside from gear.

I don't see why classes can't share a theme or a common weapon. In fact, it places huge limits on what classes you can have when only 1 class can use a one handed sword, 1 class can use a gun, etc.

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<Insert quote about every game has their own vision of X class or job.>
(Oh, found something similar.)

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One example of this was the Summoner. That was highly demanded, but once it was in, there were more and more requests. "You should be able to summon all the Summons and Eidolons!" That can push a person to think, "Oh, I shouldn't have included a Summoner in there." It is something that we need to be very mindful of, because something that could be implemented into an MMO may not necessarily be fun in a standalone Final Fantasy. The opposite is also true; an FF element that people have a strong attachment to may not translate well into the world of an MMO.

Click to be taken to the interview.

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Probably has something to do with how the game is coded to your main-hand being what triggers what class/job you're on when it comes to the physical main-hand.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

<Insert quote about every game has their own vision of X class or job.>

Probably has something to do with how the game is coded to your main-hand being what triggers what class/job you're on when it comes to the physical main-hand.

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The main hand are classified as "Arms". Gladiator Arms, Dark Knight Arms, etc. They further have a requirement for Class, Job, and Level.

For example, non-Relic weapons are typically "Gladiator Arms, Level Require X, Gladiator - Paladin"

A Paladin relic weapon will be "Gladiator Arms, Level Required X, Paladin"

As class and job are synonymous with each other now, the distinction for Arms Type and Requirement are redundant.

So the coding itself likely goes first by the "Arms" tag and then secondly by the Job Requirement. For jobs without a class, it defaults to Job, which equips the weapon and jobstone.

What this means is that so long as Sword Mage Slinger doesn't use "Gladiator Arms", then there is no conflict even for the exact same weapon model.

And frankly we have every manner of sword imaginable. We have two handed swords, one handed swords, swords that can be two handed or one handed, swords that slash, swords that stab, soon we're going to have swords that shoot bullets.

The only problem I see with having swords that shoot lightning is that we could use some god damn hammers.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The main hand are classified as "Arms". Gladiator Arms, Dark Knight Arms, etc. They further have a requirement for Class, Job, and Level.

For example, non-Relic weapons are typically "Gladiator Arms, Level Require X, Gladiator - Paladin"

A Paladin relic weapon will be "Gladiator Arms, Level Required X, Paladin"

As class and job are synonymous with each other now, the distinction for Arms Type and Requirement are redundant.

So the coding itself likely goes first by the "Arms" tag and then secondly by the Job Requirement. For jobs without a class, it defaults to Job, which equips the weapon and jobstone.

What this means is that so long as Sword Mage Slinger doesn't use "Gladiator Arms", then there is no conflict even for the exact same weapon model.

And frankly we have every manner of sword imaginable. We have two handed swords, one handed swords, swords that can be two handed or one handed, swords that slash, swords that stab, soon we're going to have swords that shoot bullets.

The only problem I see with having swords that shoot lightning is that we could use some god damn hammers.

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The way I see it, the weapon more readily shows what someone's job/class is. PvP is a completely perfect example, especially since glamours were allowed into the area. You see someone running at you naked, but with a single handed sword: it's a PLD (as there is a glamour for having no shield). You can easily and readily identify what someone is (yes, I know there's a class/job tag in place of an opponent's name - you can opt out of this setting). Outside of PvP, it's debatable the significance of this, but if it's something wants to be kept, that's what they'd want to have kept.

There's also the question of balance, too. Unless you meant purely for looks. Well, as it is, you can only glamour the same arms.

Yes, we have many different swords in the game, but historically (in game and in reality) for different uses/ fighting styles.

You'd not use a claymore the same way as a longsword, nor would you use anything like a katar (though they are daggers, they function more like a brass-knuckle stabbing weapon than something you'd see a NIN use their daggers for). None of which function the same way a rapier does. All of which are different from a katana. A broadsword is not a jian, though they are similar in looks, but jian functioning more often like a rapier, but still different from a rapier.

The weapons do still need to function for the class/job's animation and I'd honestly hate to see a PLD wield a rapier, or claymore, and swinging it around like they do for Rage of Halone. Maybe I appreciate that more having studied weapons way back in martial arts; just because a weapon is similar in looks does not mean it's identical in use and I can appreciate keeping some semblance of realism with high fantasy in this aspect.

We've already seen Koji's love for pulling names and things from history (dueling circle, despite it being a square). As much as people may hate hearing it, lore is also a good reason. When you forego the lore for things to be implemented (like say this desire), you start poking holes in a narrative that make it start to ring hallow.

Though I'm someone who doesn't like to compare one MMO to another, many others have this same conformity and could be called a standard aspect of the genre. The weapon often defines the class. It's unusual if they have a system that allows freer weapon choices while still having that class aspect.

However, yes, I will agree that the arms type between class and job are largely redundant, but it's something that's forced to exist thanks to 1.0.

tl;dr
Job identity (PvP and PvE) and animations to lend itself to enough realism to not make it utterly ridiculous, and not in the same way someone can wear a metallic green pig-suit kind of ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

<Insert quote about every game has their own vision of X class or job.>

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I agree, which is why it would be fine to have it despite similarities in the theme.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

tl;dr
Job identity (PvP and PvE) and animations to lend itself to enough realism to not make it utterly ridiculous, and not in the same way someone can wear a metallic green pig-suit kind of ridiculous.

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There's almost no realism beyond the basic low level weaponskills among animations. You really can't use that argument. Just in the Paladin's weapon models alone there's enough variance that the animations hardly line up with what the sword should be used as.

The Dark Knight Animations work with literally any metal stick, let alone differentiating them between the various models of actual swords.

This goes on and on between the various weapon types.

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Originally Posted by GrumbleBeard

I agree, which is why it would be fine to have it despite similarities in the theme.

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Was saying that in the confines that for all we know, PLD is FFXIV's iteration of Holy Knight. Or it might not. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I actually don't know, especially when you consider Yoshida saying the Warriors of Darkness are classes/jobs that we don't have (IE: their "PLD" might be a Holy Knight because he was saying it was another universe).

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There's almost no realism beyond the basic low level weaponskills among animations. You really can't use that argument. Just in the Paladin's weapon models alone there's enough variance that the animations hardly line up with what the sword should be used as.

The Dark Knight Animations work with literally any metal stick, let alone differentiating them between the various models of actual swords.

This goes on and on between the various weapon types.

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I can and will use that argument as it is part of the whole that is world building. Yes, Dark Knight animations "work" with any object you place in their hands. That doesn't mean it won't look terrible, break lore or just make no sense. You're essentially telling me a MNK will look just as fine using a spear with their animations as their fists; that is the difference of placing a shortsword in the hands of a Dark Knight, whose animations are built around a claymore.

All of which feeds back into the game staying true to its core/lore; if a class/job only uses a certain weapon, then that class/job only uses that weapon. In PLD's case, the lore states they are the "shield of the sultanate" boasting "stalwart shieldwork and exquisite swordplay." - Encyclopaedia Eorzea, page 218. Seems they are pretty intent on keeping the class/job consistent.




However, and I'm not changing my stance in this debate, as I really don't see the FFXIV team changing the weapons of existing classes/jobs, I don't think the weapons of current classes means they won't be seen/used again on another class. As it is, SCH and SMN both use a book (grimoire and codex) as well as WHM and BLM both use rods (cane and staff).

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

I can and will use that argument as it is part of the whole that is world building. Yes, Dark Knight animations "work" with any object you place in their hands. That doesn't mean it won't look terrible, break lore or just make no sense. You're essentially telling me a MNK will look just as fine using a spear with their animations as their fists; that is the difference of placing a shortsword in the hands of a Dark Knight, whose animations are built around a claymore.

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Except they're more appropriate with the PVP Glamour weapon, the beatstick. Seriously. The Beatstick makes it seem like the Dark Knight -should- have been a two handed club job, because the consideration of weight and momentum given to the animations fits a crushing weapon far better. When the sword is big enough, it's not really about it being a sword anymore.

Put a giant metal stick in Guts's hand, and he'll use it exactly like his sword, it'll just leave a bigger mess behind.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except they're more appropriate with the PVP Glamour weapon, the beatstick. Seriously. The Beatstick makes it seem like the Dark Knight -should- have been a two handed club job, because the consideration of weight and momentum given to the animations fits a crushing weapon far better. When the sword is big enough, it's not really about it being a sword anymore.

Put a giant metal stick in Guts's hand, and he'll use it exactly like his sword, it'll just leave a bigger mess behind.

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The PvP club? You mean the onii club, Kanabō? This is why I said at least part of this is grounded in reality - a two-handed club/blunt weapon doesn't exist in reality. At least, not in that way. The closest equivalent is a bo or rod. After that, you find maces or possibly the Macuahuitl, which is a PLD arm already (and single handed). It's also said that Dark Knight did take inspiration from Berserk.

Speaking of Berserk (which is why I'm guessing you brought up Guts)...

...With Guts though, he doesn't like normal swords. He actively turns down smaller swords when offered (happened once or twice). He always uses a claymore. Also, you're not getting a much bigger sword than Dragonslayer.

(In my opinion, none of the moves would fit with a club - you don't use a blunt weapon the same way as a slashing weapon, but you may use it similarly to a piercing one. That's probably why DRG got the Eastern Journey Battle Staff item.)

the problem with a tactics holy knight in ff14 would just be the balance... since its the most op job in the tactics series overall (Orlando wtf...) it would either have to challenge Sam or Blm being another raw-ego-dmg dealer to fit their image... on the other hand SE also could focus on the aoe-debuffs the holyknightswordskills provided in tactics as well but I doubt its what the topic creator is looking for.... its more about hard-hitting aoe-swordskills hm? but do we really need another raw-dmg-dealer...? SAM & BLM are still fighting to find their spots... a tactics holy knight would outcls both of them with ease : /

Yes, yes, GIVE ME SWORDSAINT!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3295317

As a lover of Final Fantasy Tactics (War of the Lion ear), I would -love- to have Holy Knight. Close to short range AoE with a chance for debuffs. For armour, put them in the same classification as Dragoon, and with "Knight Sword" for their arms, making it between the Paladin's longsword and Dark Knight's claymore. Shoot, make their weapon specifically a type of bastard sword where their attack animations bounce between two-handed strikes and one-handed strikes.

Also, I've seen people mention Orlandeau. He was a Sword Saint, the combination of Agrias, Meliadoul, and Gaffgarion, and then beefed up even more. HE was OP. Agrias / Delita Holy Knight? Not so much unless you got lucky with status ailments, and we've seen how short-lived those can be in an MMO setting. A way to balance is to add diminishing returns, like with Flash's Blind effect for GLD/PLD. And then, make it so bosses are immune to the effects altogether so you don't go in with full Holy Knight teams to just cheese through a boss, though that might be a funny sight, anyway.

If SE would include Holy Knight, they would balance it, thats all.
Do we need another raw damage dealer ? humm actualy its hard to say, you will certainly see other raw damage dealer in the future if it would be Holy Knight the most important would something original out of his gameplay, or something interresting for him he can give to the group or both.
Its one job i would be glad to see anyway

Have them function as the opposite of red mages. Build up a resource bar using physical combo's and attacks that lead up to big magic damage abilities like Lightning Stab, with certain abilities like Split Punch and Crush Punch functioning as combo finishers.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Have them function as the opposite of red mages. Build up a resource bar using physical combo's and attacks that lead up to big magic damage abilities like Lightning Stab, with certain abilities like Split Punch and Crush Punch functioning as combo finishers.

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That actually sounds like a really neat idea. :D

Expanding on it a bit, the class resource could be called Grace. Split Punch and Crush punch build grace at roughly ten per use. Using Crush Punch puts a debuff on the target, call it Crushed for now. Using Split punch exploits the Crushed debuff for additional holy damage and removes the debuff, to encourage people to use both. You can 'dry cast' Lightning Blade and Stasis sword but for a much lower effect. Give them a support ability, call it Holy Wind for now, that causes a minor HoT for the party. Then you can spend Grace to beef up your attacks, say 50 for Lightning blade ((With Lightning blade being a single target strong attack)) and 75 for Stasis sword ((With it functioning as your powerful AoE)). At 60 grace Holy Wind adds a minor MP regen on top of the minor HP regen. Using a beefed up Grace attack builds stacks of Condemnation, at three stacks you can use Holy Explosion. Add in an AoE attack that gains grace at a rate of 5 per use, call it Holy Burst.

I realize it'll never happen but its fun to dream.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Expanding on it a bit, the class resource could be called Grace. Split Punch and Crush punch build grace at roughly ten per use. Using Crush Punch puts a debuff on the target, call it Crushed for now. Using Split punch exploits the Crushed debuff for additional holy damage and removes the debuff, to encourage people to use both. You can 'dry cast' Lightning Blade and Stasis sword but for a much lower effect. Give them a support ability, call it Holy Wind for now, that causes a minor HoT for the party. Then you can spend Grace to beef up your attacks, say 50 for Lightning blade ((With Lightning blade being a single target strong attack)) and 75 for Stasis sword ((With it functioning as your powerful AoE)). At 60 grace Holy Wind adds a minor MP regen on top of the minor HP regen. Using a beefed up Grace attack builds stacks of Condemnation, at three stacks you can use Holy Explosion. Add in an AoE attack that gains grace at a rate of 5 per use, call it Holy Burst.

I realize it'll never happen but its fun to dream.

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For balance, would definitely cap it at like, 100 Grace (or whatever resource name they use).

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Originally Posted by Crescent_Dragoon

For balance, would definitely cap it at like, 100 Grace (or whatever resource name they use).

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Oh yeah, absolutely. This was just sort of a rough hedging I cooked up after I made that first suggestion. And to run counter to Red Mage, they'd have a skill that increased magic damage, but started at a low percentage and built up in intensity over time. Start off at five percent, then built up to twenty percent over the course of fifteen seconds with a twenty second duration.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

They removed the religious aspect of Paladin in FFXIV because it's an MMO and they didn't want to anchor your character to having fealty to any deity.

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Are you sure about that?

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Rage_of_Halone

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Halone