How do I know if I'm getting better?

Without using parses. Is it possible? I know of SSS, but the pass/fail doesn't help me very much. I don't want a "good enough" check, I want to know if my rotation is improving etc.

Without parses, a stone sky sea dummy really is the only thing that can quantify your damage. There are sites like http://ffxiv.2digitalgames.de that will help out by putting solid numbers to your performance, and beyond even that just aim to kill the dummy faster each time, using leftover time / percent left at time out to gauge your performance.

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Without using parses. Is it possible?

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Nope. Also, SSS is mostly a gear check that has very little to do with skill and improvement as a player.

Well, that sucks. I'm learning MNK and I want to do it right. SE Doesn't make it easy, do they? lol

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

SE Doesn't make it easy, do they? lol

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Not for the kind of player that wants to be an asset for his/her party. It makes it very easy for those players that don't care about fellow party members and just don't want to be held accountable for their performance.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Not for the kind of player that wants to be an asset for his/her party. It makes it very easy for those players that don't care about fellow party members and just don't want to be held accountable for their performance.

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I just think of WoW and how the rotations are infinitely simple (like 4 buttons max usually + one or two longer CDs) in comparison to FFXIV dps jobs. This game really needs a supported way of gauging one's performance.

Otherwise like you said, it will only benefit the ones who don't care and prefer to be carried and leech off others who do care.

Yeah SSS is only useful to check if your gear is good enough or if do your rotation properly. The latter being only useful to new players or player trying out a new job.

It's by no mean an indication of your actual competence in a raiding environnement.

you get better the moment you get a name, and people don't "omg look im with xxx yyy, demn nice lose gg, report this one"

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Nope. Also, SSS is mostly a gear check that has very little to do with skill and improvement as a player.

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Indeed. With food and pots you can boost your damage, but at the end, it means nothing. SSS does not includes downtimes, mechanics, dodging, healing/shielding (for healers), using def cooldowns (for tanks), mitigation, group composition or buffs/debuffs.

So... without any parse, its not possible.

Well, if you really want to hate life, I knew a guy who legit read the ENTIRE combat log after fights and did math with the timestamps to essentially be a manual parser. Would not recommend that rout unless you just hate free time and sanity.

Most groups you run with will have at least one guy parsing. If you ask for something to be recorded or uploaded for you, they'll usually do it and give you a link. Even in DF stuff.

Technically THE SSS dummies are good enough. You don't need hard numbers, though they are nice. It is assumed that if you can clear x dummy in a certain amount of time then as long as you can maintain that and not die you will win the fight.

SE wastes resources / cash for an app noone is using...., but can't give console players a parser -_-

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

Without using parses. Is it possible? I know of SSS, but the pass/fail doesn't help me very much. I don't want a "good enough" check, I want to know if my rotation is improving etc.

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SSS does tell you if your rotation is improving.. It's pretty much what it's designed to do. It's not a difficult tool to use.

If say you've gone from barely clearing a dummy with maybe 1-2 seconds left on the clock to clearing that dummy consistently with 10 or 12 seconds left then it's an obvious sign of improvement. it's measurable and quantifiable. If you then beat that dummy with 15-16 seconds left. then that's even better. So it's actually very easy to see if your rotation is improving or not. It's only a binary pass fail if you treat it like one.

Also in some ways SSS is actually a better comparative tool than a parser because in SSS the only variable is you. Parsers however have an almost infinite number of variables.
So if Jack can smash a dummy 10 seconds faster than James it's a much clearer comparison than say.. Jack parsing 500 DPS higher at the end of a fight than James.

In the case of parsers you might actually find James was playing better even if he's 500 dps behind Jack on parses. Jack probsably had a better comp and more DPS buffs than James did.

At the same time if you came out of a fight today doing 500 dps more than you did yesterday in the same fight that doesn't mean you've improved. You might actually have done worse. because again it could be any number of variables that account for the differences.

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Originally Posted by Zephanoa

It is assumed that if you can clear x dummy in a certain amount of time then as long as you can maintain that and not die you will win the fight.

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That assumption is wrong though. First of all, it is completely invalid for 6 jobs, namely healers and tanks, since aggro, mitigation and healing are ignored in SSS.
Second, a 3 min dummy session is not representative of anything since damage is highly influenced by crit, direct hit and proc rate in such a small time frame(and you can even summon a chocobo to help you out lol).
Finally, the implicit assumption that players will be able able to replicate whatever they did in SSS in actual high difficulty content is so asinine that it makes the whole system useless.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

That assumption is wrong though. First of all, it is completely invalid for 6 jobs, namely healers and tanks, since aggro, mitigation and healing are ignored in SSS.
Second, a 3 min dummy session is not representative of anything since damage is highly influenced by crit, direct hit and proc rate in such a small time frame(and you can even summon a chocobo to help you out lol).
Finally, the implicit assumption that players will be able able to replicate whatever they did in SSS in actual high difficulty content is so asinine that it makes the whole system useless.

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I think it should at least be granted that Stone Sky Sea is a good starting point. The ability to reset cooldowns at will makes it way more convenient for practicing the muscle memory of which buttons are where and what order one wants them to be pushed in.

I spent 4 hours at the dummy when I first picked up mch, just picking up the basics. Noting when my gauge was where and how to take advantage of the resources at my disposal.

Did this help first contact with an actual raid? Not in the slightest, initially. But it helped me adapt much faster to the raid because of the Stone Sky Sea practice I'd done showing me the gist of how I want my cooldowns interacting.

Tl;dr: its a single tool. To be effective it needs to be used with multiple tools (like a guide). Even then it won't prepare you for raid very well, but the groundwork is set if Stone Sky Sea is used well.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Tl;dr: its a single tool. To be effective it needs to be used with multiple tools (like a guide). Even then it won't prepare you for raid very well, but the groundwork is set if Stone Sky Sea is used well.

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Yes, it's good for training your opener and rotation up to 3 min, but that's it. It would be much more useful to have a potency-based SSS. Do your correct rotation flawlessly and you clear 2-3 seconds before the time limit. They wouldn't even need to update it every time a new trial/raid is released and it would be much more informative for the player. With the current system people can just wait to have full ilvl 400 gear after the next 24 man raid is released, clear o12s SSS 1 second before the time limit and think they are "good" enough. Clearly, that is not the case.

Even potency based would end up getting affected by stats like spell/skillspeed, especially jobs like MCH who live or die on their skillspeed, but I get the gist of what you're saying.

I won't argue that SSS is useful beyond that. It's just my anecdote that learning those 3 minutes, looking at as many variable scenarios and gauging every single visual stimulus I could to create shorthands for myself in a solo environment I can reset at will, I wouldn't have been able to adapt MCH to savage nearly as quickly as I did.

Maybe a necro, but you COULD try going to a forum of advanced players (Like Balance) and ask if someone there can take a look at you. But really, there's not much else you can do.

Thanks for the responses guys. Some of the advise is really good and helped me see things a different way. I really appreciate it!

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

SE wastes resources / cash for an app noone is using...., but can't give console players a parser -_-

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In-game parsers aren't generally a thing in any MMO, at least not ones provided by the developers. "Damage Reports" that just tell total damage are a little more common...and even this game has that in PvP (such as in the frontline report at the end).

But a damage parser that tracks the way ACT does here or Recount does in WoW is almost always handled by mods, not the developers.

Some games simply have significantly better mod-support (or mod-support at all).

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Originally Posted by Nerfworthy

I'm learning MNK and I want to do it right.

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Please someone throw this guy a party and give him a medal! We need more of this attitude in the game.

Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray!