Based on feedback;
Salted Earth double click/tap to cast at user's feet.
Return Scourge as a proc based attack, base the proc on something that doesn't require main tanking to work.
Make Blood gain consistent vs right now where overcapping is too easy.
Give us interesting ways to spend blood, preferably in smaller increments.
Likewise with mana, overcapping is too easy currently.
Darkside as a trait.
Blood Weapon overhauled to make it more interactive.
Reduce Dark Arts treadmill.
Thanks to those who gave feedback that was constructive, and good luck to DRK players in 5.0
A Suggestion for Dark Knight moving into 5.0/Eventual Rework
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10-08-2018, 11:10 PMSpeaksA Suggestion for Dark Knight moving into 5.0/Eventual Rework
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10-09-2018, 04:22 AMWhyAmIHere
"Grit changed; Grit now gives +20% damage reduction and reduces damage by 20% unless under the effect of Blood Weapon.
Grit no longer gives bonus enmity generation.
Grit becomes Global to toggle on or off."
pack it up boys, we're done here. -
10-09-2018, 04:28 AMDaulBan
I was going to write some sort of response to these but the sheer volume of... stuff is just sapping my will to live.
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10-09-2018, 04:29 AMSpeaksBlood Price can still only be used in Grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Blood Price now gives bonus enmity generation currently tied to Grit but no longer restores MP when hit. it's duration remains the same, but it's CD is increased to 60sec.
Tank Stance without a downside when played correctly sounds terrible. Why not just another WAR clone? -
10-09-2018, 04:31 AMSpeaksSorry, though DRK deserves a wall of changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
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10-09-2018, 04:33 AMWhyAmIHere...maybe once you learn how DRK actually functions you might have an argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
"I'm gonna make a tank stance be, instead of a constant thing, a thing that's only available for an amount of time"
and
"DRK isn't a good tank."
you're trying to reinvent the wheel by making a triangle out of a rhombus. -
10-09-2018, 04:34 AMDaulBan
The most succinctly I could describe these changes is 'I don't like how DRK plays in dungeons so I'm going to use some deep analysis to just put AoE on everything'.
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10-09-2018, 04:39 AMWhyAmIHere
Seriously. You say yourself
"Feel free to skip the next section if you are not interested in the kit proposal"
in a thread about suggesting DRK changes.
Titled as such. -
10-09-2018, 04:40 AMSpeaksI know how DRK currently works. DRK feels bad to play, and to quote myselfQuote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Grit is not suddenly time limited. The passive defense bonus becomes permanent, you also lose the damage down effect normally on tank stance once you get your buff up. The buff is also maintainable through using gauge for Bloodspillers. You are being rewarded for thinking ahead and planning when you need to use aggro vs when you don't. Not all tanks need to play the same, or we will never see anything interesting done with classes in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
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10-09-2018, 04:42 AMSpeaksI am more than open to suggestions for getting DRK's AoE up to speed if you have some. The proposed changes make it's AoE more fluid overall, is there something wrong with doing that?Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
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10-09-2018, 04:44 AMSpeaksThe intent was to let you choose to view simply the pros and cons instead of just kit changes as a TL;DR for the suggested alterations. After all most people don't want to read and I took that into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
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10-09-2018, 04:46 AMWhyAmIHere...you also nixxed the hate generation of grit. The thing Tank stance is for. And put it on a skill. with a cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
so, you made Grit, a tank stance, only act as a tank stance, as long as BPrice was up.
You made a tank... not a tank.
No. You don't get to pull that card. You posted in a forum, and a "public" one at that. You made yourself open to criticism, and making a throw-away line of "don't read this if you don't care to" doesn't absolve you of feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
People are going to read what yo wrote. What you wrote was bad. Very bad. If I had more time I'd go line by line, and show you how wrong and bad they all are.
You'd turn around and defend the points you care to defend, and ignore feedback on any others you don't want to deal with by saying "you don't have to comment if you don't like it" or anything along those lines. -
10-09-2018, 04:49 AMSpeaksYou do realize that currently tanks are only in tank stance for a few GCDs anyways right? WAR only pulls in tank stance for 2-3 GCDs at most, and does so under Unchained. Meaning they basically pull in DPS stance.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Tank Stance for mitigation first and aggro second? Preposterous. -
10-09-2018, 04:59 AMJonnycbad
Maybe by high-end raiders, but not for most players. Also, not during progression--only when optimizing for farming for speed/efficient kills.
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10-09-2018, 05:05 AMWhyAmIHereandQuote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
shows you're lacking in how to handle DRK in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
DRK is, by far, the easiest to use AoE in dungeons.
Yes, WAR as inner release for sweet sweet direct crits... every 90s. Beyond that you've got what, two aoe moves in decimate/cyclone and the conal upheaval?
DRK has Abyssal Drain, DP, Quietus, and if you're really feeling spicy, Unleash and Salted Earth. Q is affected by Blood Weapon, so you can drop grit to really generate massive amounts of MP/Blood, spam Abyssal, hit a Quietus, to fuel more Abyssal Drains. BP isn't a slouch either if you stay in grit if you want to fuel more AD uses either.
I'd say before making statements towards the effect of "I feel that X could be improved by Y, Z, and Q," you should do more class research on how X functions to start with. Right now DRK shines in dungeon content compared to WAR/PLD. Saying that they don't is just you admitting you're not good at it and not recognizing it, or being unable to accept that. -
10-09-2018, 05:17 AMSpeaksI hope you arent saying you know raiders who open with 3 or more aggro combos back to back, because 3 power slashes is what you could get under a 15 second enmity generation buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonnycbad
I don't know anyone who even opens with aggro combos at all. Neither me nor my OT do and we are in progression savage, and it isn't like either of us are amazing world first either. -
10-09-2018, 05:18 AMRaffter
not sure if this post is meant to be a meme "guys if you play drk wrong it's not a good tank"... same. Leave DRK suggestions for people that know the class. Refer to FFLOGs if you're looking for DRK advice.
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10-09-2018, 05:20 AMKabooa
To be quite frank, I don't see many of your changes making Dark Knight feel better. I see it being less active, which is not a bad thing, but with little given to make it compelling. If you're removing 'activity' from a class, then something has to be added back in.
Activity level and engagement aren't the same thing. This is part of translating class fantasy to mechanical input. The Black Mage doesn't require much activity / input itself, however, the engagement stems from keeping mind of timers, incoming mechanics, and working around them. The APM of Black Mage is among the lowest, but the attention it utilizes is quite active itself.
Compare this to, say, Samurai who have significantly higher APM but their 'engagement' is on resource management and cheating the GCD to maintain as much uptime, especially if Melee uptime is removed. You're not planning as much around what happens for the Samurai, you're primarily just concerned about keeping in melee range as much as possible.
It doesn't matter if the boss does a zig zag aoe pattern followed by out/in and then two steps back. Odds are you can cheat all of it with one simple backstep and charge, where a black mage must work around every step. The considerations given to the same mechanic are vastly different, and that plays into the feel of the Job.
So with this in mind you are removing "activity" (Dark Arts) but not giving anything back.
Grit being toggled on fully and requiring Blood Weapon to nullify the penalties means it's just maintaining blood weapon as much as you can. If at any point in this kit that Blood Weapon cannot be maintained full time, Grit goes back to never being used, especially since threat generation got removed. This in turn makes the Delirium change kind of meaningless. Blood Weapon is going to be prioritized no matter what. It pretty much has to be, so Delirium will always be the first choice of use, even (and perhaps especially) with the Blood price attached to it for early use.
Thus from a GCD standpoint Dark Knight has received nothing to compensate for the removal of Dark Arts. The considerations haven't changed. You prioritize Delirium and excess blood gets spent on Bloodspiller, which is pretty much exactly what happens now.
The Addle effect is a no go. The primary reason potential full time reduction abilities got removed in Stormblood is because they were simply always factored into boss damage anyways. Having them meant you were fighting the encounter as designed, not having them meant you were in for a bad time.
The actual action changes themselves feel mostly unwarranted and in the wrong direction. Like why did you change Abyssal drain in every way into Unleash, instead of just making Unleash part of the AoE combo?
Why do Dark Passenger and Carve and Spit share a cooldown despite not competing with each other in their use, and on top of that, -why make Carve and Spit better-. Dark Passenger is already considered a waste of time by most.
Why have Delirium if it's just Blood Weapon?
Why curtail MP generation effects to make resources more compelling to manage, but then also remove the primary use of said resource (Dark Arts) by changing it into a tick that's just going to be covered by Siphon Strike.
Why is Quietus removed instead of being part of the AoE combo?
Why does unleash still exist if Abyssal Drain is just a combo version of it?
These action changes seem contradictory with each other for intent and purpose and execution.
You honestly could have just focused on making Dark Passenger be a super cool ability and skipped the rest of this. -
10-09-2018, 05:22 AMSpeaksOnly every 90sec? Sure. I only eliminate a single wall to wall 3+ pack pull once every 90 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
IR gives you 5 back to back direct crit steel cyclones or decimates. Decimate is 280 potency AoE. If you infuriate before hand you will get 7 total decimates a pull and 5 of which will direct crit.
You also have vengeance and upheaval/onslaught.
WAR literally pulls double DRKs AoE if not more. By the time you've got your next triple pack pull together IR is already on cooldown or close to it and boom, another triple pull is done.
It isn't that I underestimate DRK AoE, it's that I think most don't understand that WAR AoE is better than most DPS AoE. -
10-09-2018, 05:23 AMSpeaksFFLogs was used for the proposed changes, as was information and tools found on The Balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raffter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
All of these are fair criticisms and I will adjust the main post to reflect these better.
A few notes though; Assuming you get at least one Bloodspiller (which would extend Blood Weapon by 5s per use) you will be able to hold over to recast Blood Weapon while only losing a single GCD. But I would hope that under optimal play you could get 3 or even 4 Bloodspillers and thus refresh your buff effect like Greased Lightning, which was the original thought process. Unlike GL or Enochian though I would prefer it be a little harder to maintain to, like you said, increase activity and engagement.
As for Dark Arts you will still use it. I would like to see Scourge brought back too, giving us yet another off global to use.
You are correct on the Addle effect. I will remove it and allow Bloodspiller to simply refresh Blood Weapon as it's main extra gain.
Abyssal, Delirium and Unleash will have their names corrected, thank you. I am sure it only made things harder to follow.
Syphon Strike should not be able to cover new DA's mana consumption. With the only other source being the refresh effect from CaS you would at best be able to prolong it for a few GCDs extra. I would like to see DA drain all of your mana in 2 combos or less.
DP and CaS sharing a cooldown was to keep DP from being used in single target since your main source of mana would be fueling DA and TBN. Otherwise it is just free off global damage.
A good question is why unleash or abyssal exists at all on current DRK. Abyssal is strictly better right now, unless you are too low a level to have it.
The action changes was to reinforce having Grit up to survive Busters and to enforce use of TBN. Shadow Wall and Dark Mind exist as extra cooldowns, but if you give DRK a lot of lifesteal and also mitigation in large amount you end up with a tank who doesn't need a healer at all, which is also a bad thing. -
10-09-2018, 05:39 AMWhyAmIHereVengeance is not an AoE move inherently. If you want to include it, don't forget Eye for an Eye then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
The other two are not AoE moves at all. I listed every skill i could remember that was purely an AoE move. DRK inherently has more than WAR.
This given that criteria is strictly factual.
You're also not discrediting what I just said. As well, you're reinforcing that you don't fully understand how to run with DRK in dungeon content.
Of course it'll be bad if you're playing it bad. That falls onto the player not playing their class well.
No amount of job buffs can improve someone playing poorly. -
10-09-2018, 05:59 AMSpeaksDRK doesn't have more AoE if you still have to spend a GCD to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Also Vengeance definitely counts since it is part of WARs kit. Onslaught/Upheaval are not AoE, but they are both free and off global. Something that cannot be said for CaS or Dark Passenger.
What is your potency per second in a dungeon? What is WAR's? What is your DPS on a triple pack pull for DRK in the Burn right now? Because WAR can break 6k.
I am unsure why you are so incredibly insistent on being hostile though, you could afford to be more constructive like Kabooa.
Nor does it absolve you of being rude to strangers. Go ahead and go line by line, I would welcome the feedback or even the chance to show you may yourself not be correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
I am not ignoring feedback, I responded to Kabooa as I will do with others too. -
10-09-2018, 06:36 AMAniya_Estlihn
This is not Dark Knight's identity, it doesn't bolster or form a new one either, it over-complicates a job that only has very specific things that need to be altered to restore it's identity. You've no idea what you're talking about and it shows in that you suggested a bloody tank stance shouldn't increase enmity, which is the entire point of a tank stance. Furthermore, putting DP and Carve and Spit on the same Cooldown makes no sense even with your proposed changes as the two actions are completely unrelated to one another and serve entirely different functions.
Secondly, Dark Knight's identity as the speedy counter tank; as it was in Heavensward (with a GCD and APM that was only second to Ninja), is the identity they should be striving to restore. Not any of this... nonsensical garbage that literally spits int he face of the job as a whole.
This is also wrong, extremely wrong.Quote:
Dark Knight currently suffers. It has deceptively low AoE DPS, and while it certainly is not Paladin, it is still much worse than Warrior's.
Dark Knights have the ability to use TBN for Blood which gives use of Quietus, which restores MP, which under the affect of Blood Weapon will restore 800 MP per enemy hit, with Delirium up that's 21s of raw MP and Blood gain, which if one spams DA Abyssal you'll create a fountain of damage, MP and personal healing that frankly makes you damn near invincible if you have so much as even a single CD up. This is excluding using DADP to prevent over-capping MP as well as the blood you'll gain from Salted Earth being properly placed and ticking on all enemies.
WAR has inner release and can burst things down quickly, sure, but it terms of large pulls, DRK can handle them for much longer and far more effectively than the other two, hands down. One could even argue that Dark Knight and Warrior are comparable in terms of their performance in dungeons as both have unique kits that seem tailored around surviving big pulls while outputting exceptional AoE damage all the while. Just because you or someone else might not utilize the kit to the fullest doesn't mean they are bad, and there needs to be some accountability there.
Frankly, as a DRK main since 3.X, I don't want any of what you've listed; though props for not changing TBN.
Most Dark Knights you ask will tell you that we want a fast job with less reliance on Dark Arts and more of a focus on Blood.
Okay.... just noticed this... and like... uhhh... what?Quote:
Bloodspiller now deals it's damage normally for the first enemy, 10% less for the second, 20% less for the third, 30% less for the fourth, 40% less for the fifth, and 50% less for all remaining enemies.
You do realize that they only do diminishing returns for AoEs and Bloodspiller is single target, r-right?? Like, you're not getting it confused with Quietus are you? Because this would be like telling a Warrior "Heeeey your fifth Fell Cleave in Inner Release is going to have half of it's potency"
I can't... I am reading through more of your suggestions and they just... make me feel like you have no idea how the kit worked in 3.X or now. It's hard to really want to reply or comment on anything else, so I'll just leave it at this and bail out. You can reply, by all means, but I won't be coming back to read it. Felt it was courteous to say, since I really have no more input to give... these suggestions are just bad and I am at a loss for words. :/ -
10-09-2018, 06:50 AMSpeaksDP/CaS shared CD was changed before you even posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn
I understand the AoE rotation. Quite well in fact. I understand TBN gives you Blood gauge, and Quietus gives you MP back. Blood Price also give MP, albeit much smaller amounts.
But DA Abyssal is not going to pull over Decimates in DPS. My bigger trash pulls die only a few short seconds after my last Decimate.
You shouldn't need to handle pulls for super long periods of time, DRK will never pull over WAR in DPS in a trash pull if you are running dungeons.
If you truly believe that please, run a dungeon and parse it in direct comparison to a WAR run. I thought DRK AoE was really good too, and is easy and sustainable to boot! But it isn't everything it seems to be.
I had listed Bloodspiller as able to cleave. Removing Quietus and baking that effect into Syphon was fine, Bloodspiller is used to maintain Blood Weapon under the suggested changes though; you need to be able to extend it's duration via it and the easiest way to do that is make Bloodspiller good whenever you can possibly use it. The only two abilities that gained AoE were Blood Spiller and Syphon, both for different reasons.
Thank you for posting regardless. -
10-09-2018, 06:54 AMWhyAmIHereExcept... you're still wrong. DRK and WAR BOTH have to spend a GCD to do their AoE. Everyone has to spend a GCD to do an action. Just... wow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
Again. I listed everything WAR/DRK has that hits more than a single target. Upheaval and Onslaught aren't being included in this as... they don't hit more than a single target. Again, by that criteria, DRK has more options than WAR.
What is your TP/Beast gauge per second? DRK has means of refilling their MP continually. WAR has Equilibrium to refill TP when in Defiance, HP in Deliverance. Only their combos generate beast gauge, and Infuriate is a one time, +50 to the gauge.
TBN is up way more frequently, when it breaks (which it should in a large pull), you get 50 gauge. enough for a Quietus, which is more MP, which is more AD's, or even if you drop grit and go with BW+Del; point is WAR is good at short-burst AoE damage dealing hindered by gauge and TP. Their means of refueling themselves pale in comparison to DRK's in the same scenario.
If you think I'm being hostile, I'm both sorry for you to think that and less so for me coming off as such. You're just flat out wrong in your assumption on the core gameplay loop of DRK, while simultaneously saying that it's bad because you think it's bad. In AoE situations, DRK wins hands down compared to WAR/PLD in dungeon pulls. This isn't some wild speculative quip, people who are leagues better than myself echo the same sentiment. It's not hard to see that statement made time and time and time again on these forums if you'd but look for it.
Disclaimer: Sure, I feel like killing a few hours, and I just might. I know my analysis of your breakdown will be lacking, but hey, I'm willing to have people nitpick my critique of your ideas. I won't get defensive about having my analysis being called out for being bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
But let's get this much outta the air. Having your viewpoint challenged by a person does not make them rude. Having a belief challenged doesn't make the challenger rude. Using tu quoque and false cause arguments whenever people challenge your viewpoints isn't what I'd say counts as "responding to feedback." See your posts, #19, #16, #13, #11, and #5. -
10-09-2018, 06:55 AMEmiinHi! Emiin Vanih here, primary tank mentor and theorycrafter for The Balance, as well as The Theoryjerks. I was ignoring this post as best as I could until you flat out lied about TB's position on Dark Knight, and FFLogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
For the most part you were being subjective, so I didn't really care about the topic. But when you misquoted both FFLogs and my personal stance, I had to step in.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...nt&class=Tanks
FFLogs itself refutes the first claim of DRK being underpowered in DPS, in pretty much every percentile bracket. If you are considering logs for dungeons, there isn't any point in looking at them - no one actively competes in dungeons and many people play defensively.
At the moment, Dark Knight is in the lead in all of our respective theory sheetwork. If you got any information from The Balance, you are clearly misrepresenting the work we have done since the patch has released.
Now that I've stated our record of fact, now I'll dissect your post.
Your ideas for every ability revolves around the idea of an AoE powerhouse. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that we need any work in this matter. Having Syphon cleave, Abyssal doing 2.2x its damage, Bloodspiller act like Flare, Holy, etc - there is no point to these changes.
A while back I did a 90s comparison of WAR and DRK pretending no downtime and 100% resource generation. They are essentially the same. With natural downtime WAR will obviously peak higher due to Inner Release, but this is a standard that is accepted amongst all Burst type classes.
We do not balance around burst. We balance around consistency. Each tank brings their own tools to the table. Your adjustment to make DRK an aoe powerhouse does nothing but make them *the dungeon tank*.
You mention earlier that defensively DRK has no issues, and then proceed to completely dismantle pretty much all of their defenses in the idea of this perma-grit stance, and the concept of consistent life steal.
Your concept reduces the output of DRK to even dumber than it already is - The deletion of Mana as a DPS resource removes the micromanagement of DPS and instead on the defensive aspect...which you said it does not need.
There is no complexity to the DPS decision of this concept. It is a shoddy, slow acting version of Enochian, with an extreme lack of burst potential.
The current concept of DRK is microdecisions and resource management. Your interpretation is an AoE focused storms eye variant of buff uptime. There is no management anymore, and the overpoweredness of your class interpretation defensively would require it to be the main tank in almost all situations.
As a final word, earlier you mentioned buffs as analagous to Warrior abilities. Certainly some are similar, but the goal of the design is not to make them the same. Both classes are designed completely differently. Bloodspiller is not Fell Cleave, and Inner Release is not Blood Weapon. They both serve different functions. Learn the identity of the class before you attempt to change it. -
10-09-2018, 07:03 AMSpeaksBoth DRK and WAR spend a GCD for their AoE, that is the point. As such let's directly compare and contrast;Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Decimate: 280 potency. 5 of 7 will Direct Crit on start of pull.
DADP: 280potency once per 60 seconds, off global.
So WAR gets 5 Direct Crit 280 potency attacks per 90 seconds, DRK gets one oGCD 280 potency attack per 60 seconds.
Abyssal Drain: 120 potency in an AoE.
Overpower: 130 potency in a cone.
Both are GCDs, DRK has slight advantage on GCD speed, but lacks the bonus potency.
Quietus: 210 potency
Steel Cyclone: 200 but restores health akin to Abyssal.
The only way DRK could win out is if the fight went for more than enough time to recast DADP but less time than for another IR. I cannot remember the last time a pull took me more than 40 seconds to burn though. -
10-09-2018, 07:10 AMReiMakotoYou're forgetting salted earth in that comparison for a start. Second Drk has more opportunity to use their AOE than War, with war having to switch to single target to build beast gauge and running out of tp fast with overpower. In a good pull i can spend almost every gcd doing aoe, with dp and salted earth inbetween, firing off 1 quietus at least every 15 seconds, likely more with every other gcd being drain, compare that to war that gets its 7 gcds followed by either bar building or running out of tp, so the 2's damage are easily comparableQuote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
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10-09-2018, 07:11 AMSpeaksHello Emiin!Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
I would like to quote myself really quick
This is not saying the Balance endorsed my post, I am saying I used your tools and FFLogs to come to my respective changes for DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
I also would like to restate something I stated at the beginning of my original post:
I have never stated DRK's single target DPS was subpar. In fact I pointed out that aside from AoE it's DPS is actually quite fine right now. It is not going to cause enrages or wipes at all, nor did I ever say that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
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10-09-2018, 07:12 AMWhyAmIHere-sigh-Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
Okay. Lemme go through this for you.
You're comparing DECIMATE to DADP. inherently a flawed argument as one's a GCD, the other an oGCD with a recast.
Second: You're comparing AD to Overpower. Okay that's a start... but if you want to spam OP on a WAR, I hope you get a goad or a spire, because you're going to chew through your TP otherwise. DRK? DRK regenerates their MP leagues better than WAR does. I mentioned this. Equilibrium has a long recast, so good luck if you run out of TP. DRK? Played well, will not worry about running out of MP.
3rd: Steel Cyclone, without Unchained, will suffer a 20% damage loss because it isn't a thing outside of Defiance. DRK can drop Grit and still do Quietus, thereby suffering no damage loss. And AD's health regen is ONLY a thing when DA'd.
The more you post, I really hope you look back and reflect on the input given, and take it to heart and learn where your own shortcomings with DRK lie, and improve upon them. It'll only serve to make you a better DRK overall. But as it stands now, I still can't but say, again, you don't understand DRK enough. -
10-09-2018, 07:15 AMSpeaksI was comparing them for the purpose of them both being 280 potency. But you should never be using Overpower aside from the initial trash grab.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere
Steel Cyclone actually ignores the damage reduction of tank stance, it is mentioned in it's tooltip. -
10-09-2018, 07:15 AMEmiinIf you had used any f the tools I have made or provided to people in The Balance, you would have been immediately proven wrong with your ideas.Quote:
This is not saying the Balance endorsed my post, I am saying I used your tools and FFLogs to come to my respective changes for DRK.
If you keep saying you used my tools for your numbers - how did you use them? What did you compare? My numbers and tools are for current implementation of DRK and adjusting them in the ways you describe would break the design of the game. -
10-09-2018, 07:16 AMDaulBanWhat tools or information did you use pray tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
Once IR is over you sit there and do nothing but single target I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Speaks
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10-09-2018, 07:17 AMEmiinYou did not add Darkside or the typical lack of Storms Eye to these numbers. Dark Knight clearly leads outside of Inner Release.Quote:
Abyssal Drain: 120 potency in an AoE.
Overpower: 130 potency in a cone.
Both are GCDs, DRK has slight advantage on GCD speed, but lacks the bonus potency.
Quietus: 210 potency
Steel Cyclone: 200 but restores health akin to Abyssal.
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10-09-2018, 07:22 AMSpeaksI would like to note if you are grabbing 3 packs at a time you can usually pull up Storm's Eye before you hit your 3rd pack as long as you keep moving while you do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
I am going to ask a favor from you, and I am quite serious. Please run the Burn or Mocianne's (Hard) and parse yourself on triple pulls and post it in the balance. I would genuinely like to be proven wrong here, I want to believe DRK has good AoE DPS. -
10-09-2018, 07:28 AMEmiin
With the advent of TBN and Quietus it is a perpetual AoE machine, consistently outputting damage if done correctly. Dark Knight greatly leads Paladin in raw DPS output in AoE. It lacks behind only Warrior, which has a lead due to downtime in dungeons.
AoE as a balancing tool should never be used. Different classes should be competitive, but the idea of every class being similar in damage isn't necessary, and definitely not required.
Also as a footnote - if on Warrior, using 3 GCDs putting up Eye when pulling wall to wall is very typically a DPS loss and shouldn't be done. Overpower spam is much more effective in most situations. -
10-09-2018, 07:30 AMSpeaksThank you for posting your logs. I see that DRK was not as far behind WAR as I initially thought. Do you perhaps have suggestions to be changed or things you would like to see changed for DRK going into 5.0?Quote:
Originally Posted by Emiin
Yes I accepted that thank you. -
10-09-2018, 07:39 AMTaiyoShikasu
Pros: I didn't read all of this.
Cons: I know it exists. -
10-09-2018, 08:00 AMSpeaksSorry you feel that way!Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu
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10-09-2018, 08:01 AMSeraphor
The only part I'm on board with is making Darkside a trait.
I mean, it's just always on anyway, except for when you forget it.
I'm sure Grit and Blood Weapon could be handled better too. At least have Blood Weapon cancel Grit, instead of having to first deactivate Grit and then use Blood Weapon.