Change AST to HoT healer if we're getting DNC...

Thoughts on changing play style of AST to feel like a HoT healer if we're getting DNC and assuming it will be a melee dps style healer? Then we have a burst healer - WHM, shields/pet healer - SCH, HoT healer - AST, and dps healer - DNC.

EDIT: Also makes sense for AST to play this way since it's the closest thing we'll get to Time Mage.

While I agree that AST does need it's own identity if we're going to be adding more healers, it shouldn't be HoT. As much as people like to talk about WHMs being the "pure healer" and whatnot, it's actually AST that has the strongest heals in the game by comparison.
Nothing beats Earthly Star, their Benefic/II and Helios/II are both stronger than the WHM equivalents.

WHM simply has more OGCD options, but the actual potencies of heals is stronger on AST.

All healers, by design, are burst healers. You can get pretty much anybody to (or close to) max health with a GCD+oGCD. SCH's burst may not be as strong (in exchange for its ridiculous flexibility), but burst it still is.

Resto druid anyone?

I was actually thinking about this if they were to add dnc then at should have it's shield effects removed as it's kit works best for hots and dnc should instead have shields this way whm and ast are the hot healers with whm having more dps and raw healing power and ast having party buffs. Sch would have better shielding power and mild support while dnc keeping to it's past incarnation would be the debuff healer.

Challenge accepted.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM simply has more OGCD options, but the actual potencies of heals is stronger on AST.

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WHM has Tetra, Bene, Assize and Asylum, whereas AST has ED, Lady of Crowns, ES and CU. Earthly star is much stronger than assize, whereas asylum is stronger than collective unconscious. Essential Dignity heals as much as (or more than) tetra as long as the target is below half health, and has a 40s cooldown as opposed to tetra's 1 minute cooldown. So I'm not sure that I agree that WHM has more oGCD options.

As far as AST's focus, I think it would be better to focus on shields for them.

If dancer has ever had any healing capability it's been a regen, so no, they shouldn't be a shield healer (although they should still have shields)

But I don't agree that AST needs to be fixed to one sect. The addition of another healer doesn't invalidate ASTs versatility. We could end up with 2 HoT healers and 1 shield healer plus AST, and it's ability to switch to fit with it's co-healer would be just as valid.

Don't worry about how AST will fit with a fourth healer, just worry about making that fourth healer unique.

Also, deploying shields is directly addressed in the AST questline, via use of Aspected Benefic, so that's never going away.

I don't think it a matter of making ast work with 4 healers but really how a fourth will work.

As for 2 hot healers, 1 shielder and versatile ast I don't quite like the sound of that since whm, dnc and ast will compete for the hot slot and sch only has to worry about ast causing sch to more then likely have a spot in any party and the rest having to duke it out. So if dnc is added I honestly would prefer it to be able to do both like ast or it take one role and ast lose it's versatility this way all healers have an equal chance.

Now dnc being able to do both may sound like it's taking away from ast but really I feel like ast main gimmick is it's cards and buffs so it's only a matter of giving dnc it's own gimmick ie. debuffs and being a melee healer

Oh I agree, a WHM clone wouldn't help things at all, but not because of AST. Although anything like this could be mitigated by buffing up Nocturnal Sect and enabling it to compete with SCH instead of/as well as WHM.

The problem with AST is Nocturnal sect.
Diurnal plays incredibly well, but Nocturnal is blatantly inferior for a few reasons.
Diurnal Aspected Benefic and Helios stack together and with WHM regens (although all of that would be overkill), while Nocturnals don’t stack and also don’t stack with SCH shields.
Diurnal Aspected Benefic and Helios get extended by 10s with Celestial Opposition, which effectively boosts their healing potencies by up to 420 and 120 respectively, or 540 together! Nocturnal doesn’t really benefit from this except that if the enemy is stunned then they’re not dealing damage and so the shield is useless, so it’s more of a fix than a boon.

Now being able to stack Nocturnal shields with Adloquium would be overpowered, however I think being able to stack the two together, Benefic and Helios, would be fairly balanced. It would also provide more benefit with Celestial Opposition, as a bigger shield means it’s more likely to stick around for the longer duration. If timed right, you could apply a 700 potency shield compared to a standard 500 for the extra mana that stacking a Helios would cost. This would give it more competition against the SCH’s ‘Critlo’.
Or to put it another way, casting a Helios 200 potency party-wide shield, followed by a 500 potency Benefic shield on the Tank, wouldn’t result in losing that initial 200, or worse vice versa, replace a 500 with a 200.

One unique ‘gimmick’ that could work for a TP DPS healer Dancer could be proximity based heals combined with mobility skills.
(by TP DPS, I mean that their offensive skills, and maybe some movement abilities would be TP based, but the core healer set would still be MP based)

AoE that heals more when close by: <3 yalms = 400 potency, 3-6 yalms = 220 potency, 6-10 yalms = 160 potency, 10-15 yalms = 80 potency
AoE that heals more when further away: <3 yalms = 100 potency, 3-6 yalms = 200 potency, 6-10 yalms = 300 potency
AoE HoT that heals more with proximity: <3 yalms = 100 potency on tick, 3-6 yalms = 80 potency, 6-10 yalms = 60 potency, 10> yalms = 40 potency
(potency figures are purely for illustration purposes)

Gap closer with heal buff: jump to party member and if moving less than 8 yalms, apply a buff on them that doubles received healing potency for 3 seconds.
Gap closer with shield: jump to party member and if moving more than 8 yalms, apply a 500 potency shield for 20 seconds.
Gap closer attack that grants yourself and party members within 5 yalms a 10% damage reduction buff for 5s.

Gap maker: backflip 8 yalms and grant yourself a buff that guarantees your next heal will crit for 3s.
Gap maker: backflip 12 yalms and grant yourself a buff that doubles TP regeneration for 10s.
Gap maker attack: backflip 6 yalms and whiplash attack that lowers targets STR, DEX, INT by 10% for 5s.
(gap makers set to different distances in order to hit the different ranges on the proximity AoE's)

Those gap closer additional effects could also be proc guaranteed, to promoting combo oGCD weaving, like you’re… dancing…
Have them all on like a 10 or 12 second cooldown, double for the attacking ones, and you could have a pretty elegant combo system to weave between basic heals/attacks.

With the right implementation of instant/HoT/shield heals, and on the right cooldowns, this could be a healer that covers all aspects, without necessarily being a one-or-other stance healer like AST.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

While I agree that AST does need it's own identity if we're going to be adding more healers, it shouldn't be HoT. As much as people like to talk about WHMs being the "pure healer" and whatnot, it's actually AST that has the strongest heals in the game by comparison.
Nothing beats Earthly Star, their Benefic/II and Helios/II are both stronger than the WHM equivalents.

WHM simply has more OGCD options, but the actual potencies of heals is stronger on AST.

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Cure III.

/10char

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Cure III.

/10char

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Yes, Cure III is a thing.
Yes, it technically does propel their healing past AST and SCH.

But it's also mimicked by both Indom and Earthly Star for the same results. Just because the former aren't spammable doesn't make them any less powerful or more practical.

I think a great way for ast and sch shields to synergies is by making the second shield apply at half potency.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Yes, Cure III is a thing.
Yes, it technically does propel their healing past AST and SCH.

But it's also mimicked by both Indom and Earthly Star for the same results. Just because the former aren't spammable doesn't make them any less powerful or more practical.

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Indom and Earthly Star are clearly the answers to Cure III for their respective healers and there are certainly situations in which they each shine.

I remember doing Byakko EX and while he wasn't the hardest fight I was still impressed by Miste being able to place her star down to heal us from the tiger explosions perfectly every time. Indom was great in o8s as everyone is gathering back up from dropping their puddles and Kefka clones.

I still just think it's disingenuous to say that AST is the more potent healer though because it's numbers are larger. There is nothing an AST or a SCH can do in some situations or heavy aoe, especially when they don't preplan, where as a WHM who has MP or even just Thin Air left can still put out strong, consistent HPS. Even without Cure III, Medica II landing on a hit and following it with a Medica (or two) and Plenary isn't going to out hps an AST during the instant that ES detonates but the point its a WHM can do that basically on-demand.

I'm usually with you on the fight against WHM being justified as 'fine' thanks to its hps potential. I still believe it needs help, but I don't believe minimizing how borderline overpowered it's potential healing is is going to be the answer.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I still just think it's disingenuous to say that AST is the more potent healer though because it's numbers are larger. There is nothing an AST or a SCH can do in some situations or heavy aoe, especially when they don't preplan, where as a WHM who has MP or even just Thin Air left can still put out strong, consistent HPS.

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I understand what you're saying here. The point I'm trying to make is that even though Cure III is a more accessible burst heal option, it's rarely needed more than once and within the next 30 or so seconds. So Earthly Star, while not spammable or as accessible ends up being more efficient.
It's why I always argue against people using Cure III as a justification for WHMs weaknesses. Sure it's there, sure it's spammable and ready whenever you need it, but you'll rarely ever cast it to the extent that people seem to imply.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I understand what you're saying here. The point I'm trying to make is that even though Cure III is a more accessible burst heal option, it's rarely needed more than once and within the next 30 or so seconds. So Earthly Star, while not spammable or as accessible ends up being more efficient.
It's why I always argue against people using Cure III as a justification for WHMs weaknesses. Sure it's there, sure it's spammable and ready whenever you need it, but you'll rarely ever cast it to the extent that people seem to imply.

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Oh for sure!

Also (as I learned the hard way healing o8s) if you do dare press it too frequently you'll often rip off the tank and eat some autos. I remember a particularly wonderful run where I pulled right before a Hyperdrive and killed the entire party.

My only real argument was that I feel like WHM is still the technically stronger healer. If someone between WHM and AST were going to move away from direct healing I think AST makes more sense both in terms of abilities and thematically.

I don't know if it's already been said here as it seems a natural part of this discussion but every healer needs some burst healing options. AST has their Time Mage aesthetic so it would be natural to give them some kind of fast-forward ability that lets them cash in their Hots for instant heals, kinda like SCH has Emergency Tactics.

WHM has no such tie to Hots. I think it's more suited to the direct role.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

One unique ‘gimmick’ that could work for a TP DPS healer Dancer could be proximity based heals combined with mobility skills.
(by TP DPS, I mean that their offensive skills, and maybe some movement abilities would be TP based, but the core healer set would still be MP based)

AoE that heals more when close by: <3 yalms = 400 potency, 3-6 yalms = 220 potency, 6-10 yalms = 160 potency, 10-15 yalms = 80 potency
AoE that heals more when further away: <3 yalms = 100 potency, 3-6 yalms = 200 potency, 6-10 yalms = 300 potency
AoE HoT that heals more with proximity: <3 yalms = 100 potency on tick, 3-6 yalms = 80 potency, 6-10 yalms = 60 potency, 10> yalms = 40 potency
(potency figures are purely for illustration purposes)

Gap closer with heal buff: jump to party member and if moving less than 8 yalms, apply a buff on them that doubles received healing potency for 3 seconds.
Gap closer with shield: jump to party member and if moving more than 8 yalms, apply a 500 potency shield for 20 seconds.
Gap closer attack that grants yourself and party members within 5 yalms a 10% damage reduction buff for 5s.

Gap maker: backflip 8 yalms and grant yourself a buff that guarantees your next heal will crit for 3s.
Gap maker: backflip 12 yalms and grant yourself a buff that doubles TP regeneration for 10s.
Gap maker attack: backflip 6 yalms and whiplash attack that lowers targets STR, DEX, INT by 10% for 5s.
(gap makers set to different distances in order to hit the different ranges on the proximity AoE's)

Those gap closer additional effects could also be proc guaranteed, to promoting combo oGCD weaving, like you’re… dancing…
Have them all on like a 10 or 12 second cooldown, double for the attacking ones, and you could have a pretty elegant combo system to weave between basic heals/attacks.

With the right implementation of instant/HoT/shield heals, and on the right cooldowns, this could be a healer that covers all aspects, without necessarily being a one-or-other stance healer like AST.

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I could totally get behind distance-based heals, combined with debuff/buff damage reduction.