Yet again no promised DRK rework

It is already two patches late.
So much for "it's definitely coming on the next major patch". It's not industry standard to mean 5.0 with that.

When are we stop getting lied and tricked to? The list is growing.

Actually, they said in their previous interview about DRK (a few month ago, I will look this up, once I am at home and link it here) that they would not change anything about the job until the next expac. IIRC the reason was that a design/overhaul change would be too great and sudden for the design and balance team.

It saddens me too that DRK (and other jobs) are left unpolished. And while I think that at the end of an expac there should be no issue with balance, I would rather play a fun DRK just like in HW than a "balanced", but boring/annoying one.

They also didn't solve the tank accessories issue either, so we'll see in 5.0 what disaster they are creating next.

edit: Translated Patch 4.3 info from the game watch,dengeki,famitsu and gamer interviews.

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[Tanks]

• [Dark knight]
  To reach 100% safisfaction for what players demand, a huge adjustment will be needed (note: e.g such as players wanting devs to remove dark arts spam from DRK), and those changes won't be possible in a regular patch, so they decided to prioritize the clear and understandable feed back and adjusted as much as they could with the available time. The changes to Dark knight will be basically improvements to usibility (this term is used a lot in Japanese) and buffs to both their DPS and defensive capabilities.

• As for warrior, all they can say is "they are on a rampage".

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no buff to be in line in terms of dps and utility, really its a bit insulting, i dint expect a rework but balance numbers, in the end SE dont care about tanks, acc still not fixed like ariane say, poor management during all the expansion, i preffer they dont say what is they balance logic if they dont have intention of implement it.

They said they weren't going to be able to do much with it before the next expansion. Any expectations of any rework before 5.0 is mostly laughable at this point. The amount of resources they are going to be placing on the expansion is probably going to take priority. Historically they have never reworked a job in it's entirety during patch cycles. If you'd like an example, both times that Bard was reworked it was on an expansion release.

They aren't going to overhaul a tank deep into an expansion right as last raid tier is relased. What if the new drastic changes make DRK extremely overpowered? And that allows for a quick/easy world first clear? Or what if the changes are so bad that DRK is even worse than before? You can't predict how powerful buffs/nerfs will be with JUST in-house beta/play testers. You need to monitor it after it goes live and adjust up or down from there. The DRK overhaul will likely come in 5.0.

No we aren't being "lied to" or "tricked".

As others have pointed out, what they are doing with DRK is pretty much exactly in line with what they have said they would do, look into it and make a few small "usability" tweaks to it for now while considering ,not promising, more drastic changes with the expansion.

However I will express my disappointment that there weren't more tweaks that I would consider small and easier to implement that could have a decidedly big impact on how DRK feels to play, such as providing some level of passive health regain while out of Grit by doing something like providing a weaker heal to out of Grit Soul Eater or a life-steal effect on Blood Weapon or any other number of potential solutions to this problem that have been repeatedly brought up for a very long time now.

Could we at the very least get Soul Eater heal outside Grit. Would it really be that bonkers?

DRK could do with a class identity and self-heal seems to fit the bill quite well.

My main issue isn't with Drk specifically, even if I find it a hollow shell of itself compared to it's HW counterpart the issue is how the devs ultimately tweak and change the other tanks but the thing is their toolkit is sound and makes sense where Drk just has 1 flavor ability: TBN. Not to mention leveling Drk now is playing like a gutted fish where the class doesn't really get anymore complex until 70 or even fully realized as the whole purpose of Drk is TBN but you don't get it until 70 which is a huge loss to be quite honest with you.

I wasn't expecting any changes at all honestly, this is a QoL change since we've been asking for this since the start of HW.

Not to mention they're changing the tanking accessories again..ugh I don't think they'll ever find a happy medium with this at all I felt that the previous expansion handled this very well but there's still the issue of overmelding if you want that extra gain. I took a 4 month break and nothings really changed at all I don't even tank as much anymore maybe the next raid tier will keep me interested for awhile but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Could we at the very least get Soul Eater heal outside Grit. Would it really be that bonkers?

DRK could do with a class identity and self-heal seems to fit the bill quite well.

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Considering how they changed Shake It Off from one effect to an entirely new one early in the expansion, you'd think making Souleater like Syphon Strike would be doable. They even radically changed how Sole Survivor works, so legit no reason why they couldn't.

Yeah they definitely need to do something about drk pre 70

Pre 60 you have next to nothing for mitigation and 61 -69 you have no blood lol

Ive freaking dropped queues to change class because i go "oh wait i might not get a lvl 70"

Who needs mitigation when you got a e s t h e t i c s?

It's not surprising that they didn't change Drk. Numbers wise they're balanced, but it doesn't address the real issue as to why Pld is the OT and Warrior is the MT.

I'll grant you the Dark Arts spam is tiresome though. I hate that, a lot.

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Originally Posted by vVAstrAVv

Yeah they definitely need to do something about drk pre 70

Pre 60 you have next to nothing for mitigation and 61 -69 you have no blood lol

Ive freaking dropped queues to change class because i go "oh wait i might not get a lvl 70"

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I don't do leveling queues anymore. Besides what you mention for some inexplicable reason they nerfed the crap out of unleash when Stormblood came out. I don't have the patience to low level sync content anymore.

Overall, I just don't see why they gutted the class so much for Stormblood. What were they thinking?

Maybe it was "well, most of HW it was WAR OT DRK MT and PLD on the sideline so this will be DRK's expansion to sit out".

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

It's not surprising that they didn't change Drk. Numbers wise they're balanced, but it doesn't address the real issue as to why Pld is the OT and Warrior is the MT.

I'll grant you the Dark Arts spam is tiresome though. I hate that, a lot.

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Most complaints are about DRK's kit and just the overall feel of the job. You spend nearly twenty levels with next to no cooldowns that aren't role actions. Their first innate cooldown isn't even useful in most situations. Then you spend a little more than twenty more levels with again pretty much no mitigation until 70.

I won't speak on WAR as I never played it, but PLD at 50 has more mitigation than DRK does at the same level.

I don't think that there's a quick fix to this.

What makes this expansion disappointing is that most of these problems have simply been carried over from Heavensward. DRK still doesn't have a clear identity. PLD doesn't really either, to be fair, but it's a bit less obvious now that they're not at the bottom of the barrel. We've moved towards classifying them as a sort of "utility" tank (now that most people have caught on to the fact that WAR has better mitigation), but with 4.2 and SiO, I'm not sure we've left them all that much room for a niche. Perhaps they can be classified as "Cover" tanks.

The problem is that we've embraced the notion that WAR should be able to do everything at least reasonably competitively, while having a stranglehold on burst damage, sustained damage, AoE, and raid damage buffs. There isn't any room for other tank identities. WAR stifles them and drowns them out.

I think the resistance to change exists because the devs are afraid to rock the boat. WAR is a popular tank choice. You need a healthy tank population to keep queue times down and let newer players experience content. But you'd have a lot more people interested in tanking if there was a variety of tanks to choose from that each felt strong in their own right. Instead, they took the easy road, swapped PLD for DRK (hey, look, we made PLD seem like an attractive choice again!), and tried to capture people's imaginations with fell cleave spam. The changes were all superficial, and it was a wasted opportunity for a rework.

I'm hoping that if this coming expansion brings a new tank, people will start to realise the problem with having three tanks without proper identities and niches instead of just two. To quote the old Heavensward catchphrase, WAR may have "superior design", but it comes at the cost of everyone else's.

My main regret in this is that I supported a wait-and-see approach after the media tour reveal. The WHM community had it right. The devs are more quick to solve core job problems when pre-orders are on the line. Live and learn.

Either way, I hope the next tank released doesn't suffer from the identity biases that we've set up for the other three and manages to carve a niche out for itself.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

It's not surprising that they didn't change Drk. Numbers wise they're balanced, but it doesn't address the real issue as to why Pld is the OT and Warrior is the MT.

I'll grant you the Dark Arts spam is tiresome though. I hate that, a lot.

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The main reasons why PLD is OT and WAR is MT, is WAR has superior aggro grab, while PLDs have the weakest and also need to waste a GCD pulling, which overall causes them to miss raid buffs during their rotation.

WAR is defensively stronger than PLD and even more so with inner beast if in defiance, while PLD brings cover which can act as a CD with 20% mitigation and, intervention, while paired with rampart or sentinel can make a super strong CD saving the MTs CDs. Cover and intervention are pretty pointless as MT outside of a super small niche.

PLD is the OT, WAR is MT, this ain't even an issue to be addressed and probably won't be addressed either.

I enjoy the way DRK plays so the minor adjustments they made a while back to buff it were already sufficient for me. A major rework has potential to make it worse rather than better so that is not something I am personally looking forward to. Some of the things I would want them to avoid is to make the job too similar to other tanks, or to make the rotation too simplified and boring. If they can keep it fun and unique in some ways then I don't mind a rework but I don't really feel it's necessary.

Even just some more MP would help... anything, literally. Right now in pagos i rather use pala then my beloved DK and it kinda hurts me... i may suck anyways but still, loosing that few CDs made it hard and as others said in low level it sucks... even just Doma without TBN is so much harder after you used to it >_<

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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instead of waiting devs to do something or letting then do nothing and wait the comunity realize tanks can't have proper niches with WAR monopolizing everything we should make a megathread adresing this problem and support it to be sure the devs get a translated version of it now we have time before the next expansion.

main WARs especially the most agresive will not allowed any change of his "superior desing" and they are pretty loud with ppl like xeno making interviews or expresing his opinion on twitch, devs have to know a healty tank population pass for a desing balance betwen tanks and not babysitting WAR letting the other 2 (or 3 soon) outside the match like happen on heavensward with paladin and now with dark night.

not even a major rework its just design flaws the class has that could easily have been fixed with out remaking the class
tank has issue defensively leveling
grit locked Quirks
sol survivor is a CD on a CD
no anti knock back ( and they sure loved adding knock back and places you can fall off in SB)
having one attack in the combo that raises blood gauge while 80% of wars raises the gauge
The Blackest Night does nothing if shield doesn't break making this move extremely awkward to use in 24 man raid unless you MT or in over world since most ads will not break it if they tried
they gave SCH back miasma II easily could have brought back scourge

salted earth now instantly takes effects
better then nothing? might as well be nothing at this point

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

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You misunderstand.

I was referring to fixing the reason why drk doesn't have a place in either of those spots. I've cleared savage mode, I know how the tanks work.

The "fix" that was I was referring to specifically, is the fact that War/Pld have way too much synergy and are objectively better than any other tank combination in the current savage mode content. Until they fix that, there is no reason to bring a drk because War/Pld work far too well together. If you stack them up against each other at 70, Drk and Pld are more or less balanced and just about even in the dps they pull and their personal mitigation but in situations where you need two of them? War/Pld is far too good.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Most complaints are about DRK's kit and just the overall feel of the job. You spend nearly twenty levels with next to no cooldowns that aren't role actions. Their first innate cooldown isn't even useful in most situations. Then you spend a little more than twenty more levels with again pretty much no mitigation until 70.

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I'm aware of this.

However, you don't need tons of mitigation in level 50 content. For better or worse, SE balances around the level cap. Not saying that's good, not saying that's bad, but it's what they do. Whenever issues of job balance come in to play I focus on how they perform at the level cap and how they perform in the most difficult content. As is, EVERY job is viable for ex dungeons and other throwaway content, it's always balance in savage mode that folks tend to focus on.

Whether or not the job is able to clear content isn't the issue. Even meme jobs like SAM and BLM can clear content, none of the issues the job has come from an inability to get through content.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

You misunderstand.

I was referring to fixing the reason why drk doesn't have a place in either of those spots. I've cleared savage mode, I know how the tanks work.

The "fix" that was I was referring to specifically, is the fact that War/Pld have way too much synergy and are objectively better than any other tank combination in the current savage mode content. Until they fix that, there is no reason to bring a drk because War/Pld work far too well together. If you stack them up against each other at 70, Drk and Pld are more or less balanced and just about even in the dps they pull and their personal mitigation but in situations where you need two of them? War/Pld is far too good.

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While I certainly agree that WAR/PLD is the best comp, I do think it's a bit over-emphasized how good the comp is. As a direct comparison, the two things you lose going from WAR to DRK are DPS and Shake, the former more useful than the latter. If you're willing to give up that DPS -- which is going to depend a lot on your personal performance with WAR as the DRK -- then the only remaining thing is shake. Shake is good, incredibly so. It, along with galvanize effects and veil sort of break the speedkill meta with how it helps generate LB.

While that is true, in the relatively casual play that most raiders operate the 4k-8k shield may or may not really have a material effect on raid survival. In most cases the damage that it would mitigate is just as easily managed by several different healer cooldowns that they have on tap as well. Between healer CDs, reprisal, and DPS role actions, the difference in resilience of the group is pretty minimal. Case and point DRK in World First UCoB and UWU. They're very strong data points to indicate that the lack of shake is not a crippling issue.

As such, I'd reiterate that while WAR/PLD is better than DRK/PLD (with slim exceptions) the difference between the two is mostly a matter of DPS, not a matter of surviving. The issue of not bringing a PLD is its own bag of bones, in part because PLD tech is just too good for the rest of the tanks. But really that's more of a 'cover' conundrum than anything else.

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Originally Posted by DaulBan

As such, I'd reiterate that while WAR/PLD is better than DRK/PLD (with slim exceptions) the difference between the two is mostly a matter of DPS, not a matter of surviving. The issue of not bringing a PLD is its own bag of bones, in part because PLD tech is just too good for the rest of the tanks. But really that's more of a 'cover' conundrum than anything else.

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These are the two other issues I actually forgot to mention and I'm glad you brought it up as the two tie in together. War/Pld have the highest dps together by a slim margin on paper, however, Cover/Tempered Will is useful in 3/5 encounters for allowing the warrior to stay on the target without having to break off which actually allows the combo to push their DPS even higher since their uptime and DPS would be higher than any other combination.

That ties in to the other issue, the DPS meta we have right now. I won't go too much in to it since that's outside the scope of this thread, but right now every encounter favors the raid maxing out their DPS in all scenarios. Then when you factor in the higher dps and the utility on top of that? I think War/Pld is too good and has too much synergy right now.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

PLD is the OT, WAR is MT, this ain't even an issue to be addressed and probably won't be addressed either.

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Fun fact - depending on the encounter it can actually be smarter to tankswap with the PLD once so he tanks the boss after a WAR / DRK established enmity for him, or dare I say it swap multiple times to not sit on cooldowns.

Good example was O6S - having to OT as a PLD is a nightmare compared to DRK and WAR. You need to save cooldowns for last kiss and thus can't invest a lot in the goddess' autoattacks which are stronger than chardanook's. Bulwark being a 180s cooldown adds to this quite a bit. On top of that Sheltron is awful to use against the goddess who mainly autos even while kiss is up - while against chardanook's frequent shears (that dont hit too hard individually) Sheltron is a godsend with 28% on a single hit.

Thus you have WAR or DRK taking goddess attacks and given their cooldown suite even without dark mind and raw int they are better off fending against the goddess' attacks by a long shot - and then there is also holmgang and TBN respectively.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Good example was O6S - having to OT as a PLD is a nightmare compared to DRK and WAR. You need to save cooldowns for last kiss and thus can't invest a lot in the goddess' autoattacks which are stronger than chardanook's. Bulwark being a 180s cooldown adds to this quite a bit. On top of that Sheltron is awful to use against the goddess who mainly autos even while kiss is up - while against chardanook's frequent shears (that dont hit too hard individually) Sheltron is a godsend with 28% on a single hit.

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A good work-around is to have healers and ranged to absorb first gale, and hallowed ground the 2nd kiss, to free up sentiel for first and third kiss. Only applicable if your rDPS is high enough to end before 2nd gale, but seeing as we're at the start of a new tier, none of it matters anyways.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Actually, they said in their previous interview about DRK (a few month ago, I will look this up, once I am at home and link it here) that they would not change anything about the job until the next expac. IIRC the reason was that a design/overhaul change would be too great and sudden for the design and balance team.

It saddens me too that DRK (and other jobs) are left unpolished. And while I think that at the end of an expac there should be no issue with balance, I would rather play a fun DRK just like in HW than a "balanced", but boring/annoying one.

They also didn't solve the tank accessories issue either, so we'll see in 5.0 what disaster they are creating next.

edit: Translated Patch 4.3 info from the game watch,dengeki,famitsu and gamer interviews.

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We didn't get a tank or healer in SB because they wanted to balance what they already had and screwed that up badly.

Please forgive me if I don't give SE the benefit of the doubt anymore.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

We didn't get a tank or healer in SB because they wanted to balance what they already had and screwed that up badly.

Please forgive me if I don't give SE the benefit of the doubt anymore.

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'Screwing up balance' (even though all 3 tanks are the closest in overall performance at this very moment than they have EVER been since Drk was released, but hey, lets be angry!) isnt breaking a promise. SE stated they would not make fundmental/big changes until 5.0 and instead toss out smaller changes in the mean time. What did we get? TBN timer extension, Enmity buffs on multiple skills (PS, Plunge, passenger), shadowwall timer reduction, dark mind mega buff, Plunge animation reduction, salted effect delay removed, a swath of potency buffs on multiple occasions.

Wow. It's almost like they have been doing EXACTLY what they said they would. There have been a menagerie of 'small' changes that, when combined, have really moved the needle on Drk's performance accross the board on damage, enmity, mitigation, and QoL. The 'broken-ness' of drk is now focused on being 'clunky' and 'not fun' from not so long ago 'unplayable trash' job.

You dont have to like the changes, or how drk plays. But give credit where credit is due. SE has done exactly what they stated they would (make small changes in the meantime till 5.0) and what they have done (in little pieces over many patches) has dramatically improved Drk's function as a tank. Is it perfect? Nope. But its a helluva lot better than where it started. Each little patch of potency here, QoL there, mitigation buff there doesnt seem like much, but when you put all those little nibbles together SE took a big bite out of the crap pile drk was stuck in.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

A good work-around is to have healers and ranged to absorb first gale, and hallowed ground the 2nd kiss, to free up sentiel for first and third kiss. Only applicable if your rDPS is high enough to end before 2nd gale, but seeing as we're at the start of a new tier, none of it matters anyways.

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MT War can cover the first kiss and following shear with Rampart/TOB also... I've had to on occasion. Lazy PLDs

Back on topic.. SE never promised a rework? Least not for this expac. Already been covered.

DRK is definitely in a better spot with regards to tanking than it was at the beginning of SB. Most of what's left is simply adjusting the actual gameplay to something the community more thoroughly enjoys.

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Originally Posted by Sorriow

Yet again no promised DRK rework.

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No DRK rework was promised.

Maybe the DRK rework was giving it a really good BiS this patch... It's looking pretty good.

Yoshi say when they adress the DRK isues need like 6 months of work, that day din't promise a rework but dint say it wouldn't be one, so its normal the ones that miss the interview where he says changes like that wouldn't be in a regular patch get a bit upset.

Still DRK need more buffs, being close in the balance don't mean we don't need anything more.