White Mage is falling behind while Astro keeps getting buffs

Astrologian gets yet more buffs this patch by being able to weave Collective Unconscious, and also having lower arcana recast time. And that's after Astrologian getting a significant DPS buff last major patch. Everyone is also getting Cleric Stance due to the increase cross slots, while Astrologian will have the most ease to use it on cooldown.

White Mage still doesn't get any DPS buffs or any extra tools to manage their aggro, yet it brings no raid buffs to the table.

Can we get a bone at least?

That's not a buff.
That's a fix to every aoe since we had to wait the server tick to have its effect.
Whm got the same with asylyum.

Minor Arcana reduced CD won't change anything.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

That's a fix to every aoe since we had to wait the server tick to have its effect.

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Whether it's a fix for something that wasn't functioning the way it was supposed to or not, it very clearly improves the effectiveness of the skill and hence it is a buff. This change saves casting time (no clipping) for the AST and makes no such difference to the WHM. That's besides the fact that a white mage would usually have to clip their gcd in order to use Asylum anyway, whereas an astrologian can weave it with the reduced malefic cast time.

I don’t think this is something to get up in arms about. Removing abilities like this from the server tick is a good idea; they did it with more than just Collective Unconscious; ground AOE abilities were also affected (Salted Earth, Doton, Shadow Flare), as well as PLD’s Passage of Arms and SCH’s Sacred Soil. I doubt this was some ploy to destroy WHM in favor of AST.

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Originally Posted by number473

That's besides the fact that a white mage would usually have to clip their gcd in order to use Asylum anyway, whereas an astrologian can weave it with the reduced malefic cast time.

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I don’t play WHM often, but can’t you weave it during Aero II’s GCD? Certain situations may require you to clip the DoT slightly, but if it’s for party-wide healing, it would probably be worth it.

That's only because AST wasn't designed properly at first place, they just put it right step by step now.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I don’t play WHM often, but can’t you weave it during Aero II’s GCD? Certain situations may require you to clip the DoT slightly, but if it’s for party-wide healing, it would probably be worth it.

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Yes, you can double weave during Aero II GCD, but that's it for weaving. That only occurs every 15 to 18 sec. AST can (single) weave EVERY Malefic GCD since 4.3, and double weave every 30 sec when they cast Combust. They also reduced "Aspected Helios" cast time, meanwhile WHM still has its "Medica II" cast time on 3 sec.
Hell, even SCH can double weave with Miasma II if they need to and pay a little DPS loss (-30 pot compared to Broil II).

WHM has no other choice, but to clip every other oGCD outside of Aero II casts.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I doubt this was some ploy to destroy WHM in favor of AST.

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Of course it's not, people in here just like yelling about any small fix or adjustment about Ast without using their brain.

I am actually really happy with the changes that they have made to AST over the last few patches, including this one. For context, I am a WHM player and I pretty much never play AST, but these changes make a lot of sense to me.

The thing is, there have been numerous buffs to SCH and AST over the expansion so far, including quality of life buffs as well as straight potency buffs. At the same time the dev team does not even acknowledge that lilies are basically a useless system and most of WHM's strengths only really make a noticeable difference in the very hardest content in the game.

Where's my "quality of life" YOSHIDAAAAAAAAAAA!?

Call me a heaven if you may, but what about weaving by using Regen or clipping the A2 dot a bit earlier in favour of weaving? I know that isn't the most dps-friendly solution, but I don't know what else to say that may sound like a solution.

Understandably the meta for healing is minimizing healing gcds and maximizing dps potency, but don't you think WHM is more than well equipped with the best mana economy, more healing ogcds and the most accessible burst heal, only limited by MP? There gotta be some trade-off for all the goodies and that is efficient weaving potential.

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Originally Posted by number473

At the same time the dev team does not even acknowledge that lilies are basically a useless system and most of WHM's strengths only really make a noticeable difference in the very hardest content in the game.

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I won’t disagree that Lilies are completely worthless, but I think if they were going to overhaul that system, they’ll probably wait until 5.0 to do so. They should, because it’s a stupid system, but I don’t think it’s something you would see in a patch cycle.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

...but I don’t think it’s something you would see in a patch cycle.

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I also don't think they will change it before the expansion. But consider that they fixed the cooldown passives of both SCH and AST since the expansion launched and didn't do anything to WHM's which is even more useless (I'm referring to lily 2 at 68).

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

That's not a buff.
That's a fix to every aoe since we had to wait the server tick to have its effect.
Whm got the same with asylyum.

Minor Arcana reduced CD won't change anything.

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It is a buff. Collective Unconscious is now more efficient as it can be weaved properly. Minor Arcana is now more efficient.

Just the CU change might make AST better for proggression than WHM as it's now consistent instead of relying on server ticks, which was the only thing White Mage was good at.

If you raid with competent players, WHM is now the SAM of healers; barely anyone wants you in their composition.

White Mage's whole shtick is healing with no gimmicks (pets or cards), and bringing higher DPS. The latter which they don't do anymore.

My friends dad who works at Nintendo says White Mage will get potency buffs across the board it just isn't being revealed until the full patch notes so as to mitigate astro players chimping out.

So glad I swapped to a different healer.

Can't wait till 5.0 when they decide to throw cure 3, benediction, and thin air into the crossrole system. Stone V 260 potency. I heard you liked rng and cdr lets double down on that for the new expansion.

Devs are a joke at this point nothing will ever be changed.

Honestly. reducing Stone IV cast time to 1.5s like Malefic and maybe Aero 3 as well, though it isn't a big deal, would go a LONG way to fixing Whm compared to Astro. Whm has it's own issues like Lilies, but at least reducing Stone IV would improve their DPS and prevent clipping when we need to heal. I try to time all of my heals in a very specific way to weave with Regen and Aero II, but that means I need to know the fight very well compared to Astro and Sch, and there's no helping when the tank needs healed. I raid in Savage on Whm, and this is just my opinion. I completely ignore lilies honestly, so they need fixed, but I also don't feel gimped the way they are, unlike Stone IV. Sorry for the rambling...

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Originally Posted by IanFrench

That's only because AST wasn't designed properly at first place, they just put it right step by step now.

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Exactly.

I didn't expect them to reduce the CD on Minor Arcana and Lady and Lord.
It's a very good surprise.
More Lord (if lucky enough) with all the buffs and debuffs from teamate during burst, great !

QoL changes and general system improvements are all well and good, but they DO affect different jobs differently and some will benefit more than others from such changes. You don't just get to say it's quality of life so ignore any repercussions of it. If it's a good system change, you keep it and adjust everywhere else as needed. If it's a good change cause a class was poorly designed to begin with, you keep it and adjust elsewhere.

When your job's "touted role" is already being snuffed by the developers due to other (I'd argue good) changes, it's hard not to see something like this and get annoyed as it's more salt in the wound. Unintentional salt, but salt nonetheless. For what it's worth, this ain't a big thing balancewise I feel but it definitely has the least amount of impact for WHM unless instant application means instant HoT tick (don't see that happening but I could be wrong). It's certainly a welcome change, generally speaking. Activation time of all these abilities being tied to the server tick sucked for everyone.

But you know Square - if it's not scholar, it has to be out of whack for at least an entire raid tier before adjustments. For the love of god it took half a year for another creative-stroke-of-genius fire IV potency buff. At this point I'm just hoping whoever is in charge of healers over there just knows everyone hates lilies for exactly the reasons we told them going into 4.0 in that massive thread, and maybe something will finally come of them in 5.0. It's still absolutely no reason Secret of the Lily II had to remain a complete and utter abomination the whole expansion, though.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

don't you think WHM is more than well equipped with the best mana economy, more healing ogcds and the most accessible burst heal, only limited by MP? There gotta be some trade-off for all the goodies and that is efficient weaving potential.

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In regards to MP? I don't really think so - If anyone was really hurting for MP they'd be slotting piety as more MP does more for you than anything else when you're struggling with it. You also wouldn't see Miasma II in parses. WHM MP economy means very little at the moment with refresh being as strong as it is and mana shift being available on top of it. Stuff has to go wrong - very wrong, at that, before it really starts to show, or you need to be refresh-less. It's also the only healer that really has to care about threat, which rears its head every now and then for sure.

Nobody would care about the lack of weaving potential if it didn't push WHM well out of its highest-personal-damage-by-design slot, as evidenced by Stone Sea Sky. But alas, it is part of what does. To me it feels the designers are continuously leaning on Cure 3 more and more and more to keep the job afloat, and eventually it's not gonna cut it. Of course, they could just toss some more multi-mob phases in there and it'd help because of Aero 3 (on top of being more able to Holy). It's not a broken job, but it could really benefit from some attention.

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Originally Posted by Erakir

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It's getting somewhat grating, as it's the second end of expansion where White Mage is in this weird area where Astrologian feels like White Mage 2.0. I like White Mage because it's straight forward, and doesn't have a bunch of RNG baked into it. It's great for Astrologians that they get QoL improvements, but it's interesting that White Mages don't even get anything, like a Medica II cast reduction, increased potency on Stone IV, or cast reduction on Stone IV. I'm pretty sure that if Asylum/Salted Earth/Shadow Flare applies the same way UC does, I think will also apply the HoT tick.

Here's something else I didn't mention in the OP; now every healer will have Cleric Stance due to the increased class slots. White Mage is the job that will have the most issue with it, while the cooldown lines up with Aero 2, White Mage has other OGCDs it needs to use, and Cleric Stance is worth about 0.3 casts, that's if you cast damage spells for the entire duration, so clipping it isn't worth it at all. Whereas Astrologian will just be able to use it on CD because they can just weave it after Malefic. So technically, that's another Astrologian DPS buff with barely any penalty.

As you mentioned, there's also the aggro problem. If you don't have a Ninja in your party, you're stuck adjusting to either heal less, which defeats the entire point of having Cure III, especially with how the two last raid tiers introduced mechanics that force you to overheal the party, or the other healer/the tanks need to adjust. The latter wouldn't be so much of a problem if players in my data center weren't so obsessed with their fflogs parses, even in Party Finder groups. Astrologian gets Earthly Star which fully charged, is a Cure III and a third, without any aggro implications. Couldn't Plenary Indulgence, Assize, or another ability reduce aggro?

You can argue that Scholar will have issues weaving Cleric Stance as well, but Scholar isn't competing with Astrologian in raid groups.

I'm still shocked that Thin Air doesn't have 100% Aggro reduction during its effect. That would go a long way to helping WHM mitigate their aggro issues without changing how its played at all.

And really, all WHM needs is a filler spell to weave oGCDs in. SCH has Ruin II. AST has Malefic II. WHM could get Stone I back as an instant-cast spell. I remember back in HW AST used to use Aero to weave with as it was the same potency as Malefic II at the time. I wonder if giving Stone IV and Aero II the same treatment would be a good idea. Upping Stone IV's potency to 270 and reducing Aero II's potency to 40/tick with an initial potency of 30 would boost their single target DPS a fairly small margin and achieve that effect.

It's really annoying that SE said they're not going to require more CC in raids to be honest. That's one area WHM excels at over the other two healers, by a large margin.

I don't understand why they didn't even reduce the cast time of Stone like they did with Malefic, but well. Reducing the cast time of Medica II to 2.5 seconds would have been nice too. If they did that, it would let WHM at least catch up just a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

And really, all WHM needs is a filler spell to weave oGCDs in. SCH has Ruin II. AST has Malefic II. WHM could get Stone I back as an instant-cast spell.

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Or rework Fluid Aura into Water or Aqua and use that as the instant GCD spell. I would like to see some Water spells on WHM. ^^
That could be even better than reducing the cast time of Stone.

We are nearly at 5.0 and they are still buffing AST. I don't understand why AST has to be 100% efficient and keep getting tweaked constantly while WHM is certainly the worse off of the two and has been since 3.0.

The fact raids will not have more CC and that PVP has been nerfed into the ground to the point WHM is no longer a threat with all their CC utility... honestly what is the point of this job? Everything WHM can do AST and/or SCH can do better.

SE seems to be trying to make every class "playable" and SCH and AST are extremely difficult to pick up in comparison to WHM. What I see in duty finder is healers struggling to get through trials and dungeons and WHM has every skill and trait necessary to ensure a clear while Ast and Sch leave you dry on MP or outta aetherflow stacks before you know it. Since the vast majority of people playing Healers will never be in a savage raid group this lends itself to the Devs tweaking the more difficult classes. White Mage has problems but these issues go completely unnoticed by most players. Making Scholar and Astro more accessible is important because it gives people who want to heal options for classes to try and enjoy. I don't think White Mage being ignored at the high end of play is okay but it functions well despite clipping and excessive aggro and SE appealing to the majority of its player base is only natural.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

We are nearly at 5.0 and they are still buffing AST. I don't understand why AST has to be 100% efficient and keep getting tweaked constantly while WHM is certainly the worse off of the two and has been since 3.0.

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Sorry to nitpick - but 3.0 AST was terribad and desperately needed buffs.

I do agree WHM needs help atm, and I do fear we're doomed to repeat this cycle if we can't convince SE to give WHM/AST their own identity, but AST hasn't always been viable.

I’m starting to believe that the only place WHM has at this point in the tier is O10S and Akh Morns, because AST outplays it by a mile and a half on Diurnal. Based on what I’ve seen, there aren’t as many mechanics that require Cure 3 to power through that AST can already provide through cards and regens(40 pot).

I think that to fix WHM and give it a place to stand out would be to break the job itself, similarly to how they broke BRD and AST as a job back in Heavensward. It’ll give them time to understand what’s wrong with WHM, similarly as to how they figured out what was wrong with AST.

Maybe its not AST or WHM, maybe it's simply that the other job, all three healer roles should be equally viable.
It's unfair to have one job secure a place and the other two fight for the one left.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I’m starting to believe that the only place WHM has at this point in the tier is O10S and Akh Morns, because AST outplays it by a mile and a half on Diurnal. Based on what I’ve seen, there aren’t as many mechanics that require Cure 3 to power through that AST can already provide through cards and regens(40 pot).

I think that to fix WHM and give it a place to stand out would be to break the job itself, similarly to how they broke BRD and AST as a job back in Heavensward. It’ll give them time to understand what’s wrong with WHM, similarly as to how they figured out what was wrong with AST.

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To be honest, you don’t even need a whm for o10s. My static uses sch/ast and we don’t have any issues. A well timed ES and Indom pretty much accomplishes the same thing, then regens can top everyone off.

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Originally Posted by IanFrench

Maybe its not AST or WHM, maybe it's simply that the other job, all three healer roles should be equally viable.
It's unfair to have one job secure a place and the other two fight for the one left.

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Then it’s technically how they managed job design for the last 6 years. SCH has always had the niche of being a green DPS with supplementary shields to help support its heavier healing counterparts. The only gripe is that mitigation is king compared to everything else in a raid when it comes to saving healing GCDs.

If they’re to fix the problem, they’re going to have to devalue shielding a little bit and make healing needed a lot more similar to how they handled God Kefka.

While the server tick on ground aoe changes definitely benefited AST the most, it's not fair to say that it's a buff specifically for them. More like it was a much needed change that unintentionally propelled them a bit too far. Kind of like how the Malefic changes now has them doing more damage than WHM.

It does get a bit annoying seeing this constantly happen though, AST and SCH is allowed to be fine-tuned and perfected while WHMs flaws are left alone for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Then it’s technically how they managed job design for the last 6 years. SCH has always had the niche of being a green DPS with supplementary shields to help support its heavier healing counterparts. The only gripe is that mitigation is king compared to everything else in a raid when it comes to saving healing GCDs.

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Well, in order to see why Scholar's place is guaranteed, you have to go a tiny bit deeper than "it's a green DPS." What allows SCH to be a green DPS?

A big part of it is the fairy. SCH's 480 potency regen - compared to WHMs and ASTs around 150 potency - on the tank help enormously, and it can be rotated with the weaker but still significant 120-potency whispering dawn (the latter also being supplemented with Embraces). Essentially, a lot of healing is offloaded to the pet.

Then there's the number of oGCDs. WHM gets 1 charge on 60s (+bene on a much longer CD), AST gets 1 charge on 40s(+Lady if RNG plays out), SCH gets 3 charges on 45s (or 6 charges on 30s if they use a CD).

Now, SCH might be at a disadvantage in levelling dungeons where you might need to spam benefic 2/cure 2 to keep a tank up. But once you're past that, you never see this situation again - not in endgame dungeons, not even in extreme primals and savage raids. Having so many oGCDs means even when the fairy is not enough healing, there's very little to interrupt the flow of DPS.

Not even AST can compare to that.

That said, Godka was not a fix to this situation.

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Originally Posted by IanFrench

Maybe its not AST or WHM, maybe it's simply that the other job, all three healer roles should be equally viable.
It's unfair to have one job secure a place and the other two fight for the one left.

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WHM *can't* compete with SCH for that spot (since WHM isn't a mitigative healer), so we don't waste our time making a deal out of it.

Until mitigation is massively devalued in favour of raw healing, this will continue to be the case.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

WHM *can't* compete with SCH for that spot (since WHM isn't a mitigative healer), so we don't waste our time making a deal out of it.

Until mitigation is massively devalued in favour of raw healing, this will continue to be the case.

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Preventing damage is (almost) always going to be preferred to healing it up afterwards, at least in every game I've played. I think the devs tried to address this with Primordial Crust, an interesting approach.

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Originally Posted by Seredeelfer

Preventing damage is (almost) always going to be preferred to healing it up afterwards, at least in every game I've played. I think the devs tried to address this with Primordial Crust, an interesting approach.

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In FFXIV, HoTs are vastly more efficient and powerful than shields. The use case for shields is when the party or tank cannot survive a big hit without them, or if there's a White Hole-esque mechanic following up on such a hit. Otherwise, in optimal play, shields are typically not worth the cost and time (exceptions: benison, the blackest night, and other oGCD shields that are free or low cost).

Saying SCH's strength is in shields is a misassessment, otherwise Nocturnal AST wouldn't be so bad (even during that patch where they were buffed upwards so much). SCH's strength is in having a pet that can dispense a variety of heals at no MP cost and no GCD cost. Including the most powerful single-target HoT in the game by several times, and a very powerful party HoT.

Of course the shields aren't bad, especially something like a critlo deploy. But they're on the GCD and costly - both in terms of MP and DPS. Good scholars avoid shielding as much as possible. And they do have the powerful HoTs to do so.

This is also why even in a WHM+AST composition, Diurnal AST is preferred unless someone absolutely cannot survive without the shields. The HoTs are just so much more powerful and efficient.

AST/SCH was the meta healing combo at the end of HW, and it's the same in SB, and both were world first savage clears. WHM was okay this entire expansion, after the ill-fated illy debacle. But it's still the "selfish" healer with no party utility. No one can say "WHM is the progression healer" that's false, and has been for awhile now.

It's not really going to change unless another healer gets into the equation to change that. Plus as long as an Astro is a buff-healer with practically the same raw healing potencies as WHM. "Instant" skill buffs had also made CO more powerful. SCH is always invited to the party because of the best oGCD in the game with Indom and having Chain.

AST/SCH became instantly viable after the first set of AST buffs in HW, but was always the real meta. It just became more realized in Alexander: Midas which was world 3rd combo.

I'm definitely feeling it with the O12S first phase fight. The DPS check is rather tight, and not running AST is pretty much taking away DPS from your party which at this point (which can be applied to both targets in the encounter), is essential to even be able to see phase 2 of the encounter.

I got the flask and the tomestone to upgrade my weapon after the reset, and I'm wondering whether I should upgrade my WHM weapon or just upgrade my AST weapon.

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Originally Posted by Fiorinol

I got the flask and the tomestone to upgrade my weapon after the reset, and I'm wondering whether I should upgrade my WHM weapon or just upgrade my AST weapon.

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If you feel truly neutral about the healers from a personal preference standpoint, AST is a no brainer. If nothing else, you won't get complaints about ruining people's parses, and they'll ask you to run AST anyways.

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Originally Posted by Fiorinol

I'm definitely feeling it with the O12S first phase fight. The DPS check is rather tight, and not running AST is pretty much taking away DPS from your party which at this point (which can be applied to both targets in the encounter), is essential to even be able to see phase 2 of the encounter.

I got the flask and the tomestone to upgrade my weapon after the reset, and I'm wondering whether I should upgrade my WHM weapon or just upgrade my AST weapon.

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If your team cares about pushing damage a lot, you'll get that nudge about Astro all the time.

You also know if they were gasping when muted when the Cane is out.

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Originally Posted by Fiorinol

I'm definitely feeling it with the O12S first phase fight. The DPS check is rather tight, and not running AST is pretty much taking away DPS from your party which at this point (which can be applied to both targets in the encounter), is essential to even be able to see phase 2 of the encounter.

I got the flask and the tomestone to upgrade my weapon after the reset, and I'm wondering whether I should upgrade my WHM weapon or just upgrade my AST weapon.

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It's so damn bad that we have to even think like this really. We shouldn't feel like we're a hard detriment to our raid group for not playing AST, seriously.

I think when they want to keep the pure healer idea for WHM at least WHM should be a real powerhouse in that regard.

Give him an aoe Benediction, aoe dispell (seriously, why got SCH it?), give him a Raise 2 (raise without weakness, helloo raid utility) and maybe buff his potencys, so he actually heals more than the other healers, even if it's useless. And can we have back the weak off-gcd heal on a 15 second cooldown we had only for a few weeks in early SB? Make it single target and don't tie it to these stupid stacks, yes? And what's with re-raise?

I want Stoneskin and Stoneskin II back. *grumpy WHM*

4.4 Stormblood, meet 3.4 Heavensward.

One thing I've been thinking about is how they could possibly rework the gauge(let's be honest, IT'S COMPLETE DOG CRAP).

I think I might've said something a while back along the lines of maybe being able to use an Elemental Gauge? I mean, WHM ties into the elementals rather closely and I'd like to see more of that explored as Lore in the next expansion.

For instance, here's something:

Upon use of Water Element Spells(Healing Magic, Fluid Aura, etc.) it'll increase the gauge by a set amount. I'd bet there'd also be a gauge spender involved which might be in terms of a big heal to help through mechanics or a large AoE Spell like Water III or something like that for large damage.

Upon use of Earth Element Spells(Stone IV, Divine Benison) it'd increase the gauge by a set amount. On top of that they could cast Stoneskin II as an oGCD once enough Gauge is built, or use Quake(AoE, 300 Potency Earth Spell; 10y radius).

Heck, for Aero II and Aero III, they could potentially cast Tornado(AoE, 100 Potency Wind Spell, applies 70 pot DoT for 24s) or use Haste on a target to increase their Attack Speed and reduce recast by a set amount for about 20s.

Those are just some ideas I'm throwing around, but I think maybe once they finally give WHM the utility it's overdue for(outside of having everyone steal its own capabilities and not giving back...kinda the theme for Stormblood isn't it?). Still...are there really any better ideas to make WHM stand out and not lose its identity a SECOND TIME to AST's broken balance issues?