Red Mage Changes

I have heard on balance Discord that finally Red Mage will be seeing changes.
No post exists here yet so let's discuss. Curious to see players opinion.

I think it's about damn time, every job has seen change (or multiple changes) while RM basically remained the same. People are saying it will be a aoe buff along with possibly ST damage but manafication may see slight decrease. I have not really looked at what was said all too much.

I highly doubt they'll majorly overhaul a job on the last major content patch of an expansion. I think what I would like to see is embolden effecting all damage types, verraise becoming instant cast 1 minute cd, and a light potency increase across the board.

I feel like rdm should be slightly ahead of bard on personal damage, while their total group dps contribution to dps still behind brd by a small ammount.

That's really just my personal view on it though, I don't even play rdm. I feel they're meant to be a utility job, but not necessarily a rez slave job for brute force prog and learn mechs to then switch to smn for the kill. If they gained some kind of better group damage boost, while still having an easy less spamable raise(to counter ballance the damage boost) in their kit, it would become pretty desirable.

In theory RDM have access to insta res at will, but in practice a RDM will run dry if he res more than 1 person per minute since he lacks any kind of mp regen outside Lucid Dreaming, so realistically speaking he has the same ressing power as a SMN, with the difference that he can frontload for example 2 res on 1 minute as long as he doesnt need to res for a while to recover mp (that also affects to RDM Mana Shift btw)

Also the heal is pretty meh outside soloing/4 man dungeons and Embolden is by far the worst group buff of the entire game. Even Brotherhood adds more raid damage and dont forget the extra chakras suplied to the monk as a bonus, plus its a pain to coordinate burst on the initial 4 seconds window to get the most of it. Even using it as a selfish buff the RDM is unable to land his full burst combo due to lack of time (4 gcd for the 3 empowered weaponskills + finisher>> 4 seconds)

On other games RDM is often portrayed as a jack of all trades probably half dps half support, but here on his current state Summoner not only outdamage him by FAR, but also can res, have better mp regen AND better raid buffs to boot.

Unless things change on 5.0 seems that they designed RDM to be a dps first with some support skills second, because a laughable raid buff with the ability to res (healing is not even worth mentioning on high level content aside preparing an instacast when no targets near) doesnt justify being the barrel bottom of the dps

Its been confirmed that RDM is receiving both aoe and single target buffs but nothing specific yet, but they mentioned both RDM and BLM are being outperformed badly by the SMN and they try to bring RDM dps similar to SMN while giving BLM the magic dps crown

Embolden goes from 10% to 2% on 20 sec; it's an average of 5% buff for 20 sec; it's 7% for the first 16 seconds ... Brotherhood is 5% for 15 sec.
Explain me how embolden is worst than Brotherhood

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Originally Posted by Ardox

Embolden goes from 10% to 2% on 20 sec; it's an average of 5% buff for 20 sec; it's 7% for the first 16 seconds ... Brotherhood is 5% for 15 sec.
Explain me how embolden is worst than Brotherhood

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30% chance to gain chakra when anybody affected by it uses a weaponskill. It would be similar if during embo's duration we had passive mana generation.

Also consider the job giving it vastly outdpses RDM, if we're gonna do 1:1 comparisons.

All I want is for Fleche to bring piercing resistance down, which would help solve piercings issue while raising RDM dps in non Drg comps by 1%.

This on top of making embolden physical and magical damage up, buffing fleche, contre, displace and corps, while also buffing all other magical attacks in the party.

I want RDM to stay close to bard as well in terms of raw DPS and sit near the bottom.

The buffs to SMN have caused a crisis similar to 3.xs ranged buff rat race between brd and mch. In the next expac, hopefully, smn will be reeled in and balanced. Right now BLM is 100th percentile. RDM is 89th. SMN is 98, causing it to be too close to BLM, who is losing its personal dps identity. RDM is too low comparative to the utility SMN brings and it's 98th percentile dps so it also needs a large buff to bring it closer.

Just how I feel about it.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

30% chance to gain chakra when anybody affected by it uses a weaponskill. It would be similar if during embo's duration we had passive mana generation.

Also consider the job giving it vastly outdpses RDM, if we're gonna do 1:1 comparisons.

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Someone did the math and the damage it brings Brotherhood is in fact, superior to Embolden despite Monk personal damage being really close to the top.

Embolden wouldnt be so bad if they gave it to a high dps class such as Samurai, giving him a small raid buff to compensate for his high damage and avoiding a class to become too op (anyone still remembers 2.0 bards pre nerf when they were basically BLMs with bow, instacast and crazy utility that some people made raids with 4 bards as dps?). Problem is that they gave it to the lowest dps job that utility wise only have a res on high content, not counting the fact its been years since we are on a physical meta, which detracts from bringing casters unless they are really good

Lol embolden is not worst raid dps utility in game. It is 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 / 5 = average 6% damage with same 1/6 uptime than brotherhood. On top of that it have good synergy between chain stratagem, trick attack, hypercharge etc while nobody else have 90 sec timer on their raidwide buff, I think so? It bring over 500 dps for good parties, problem is not utility, but rdm personal dps.

Just saw the (preliminary) patch, i dont see anything change on RDM, just increase potency buff thats it.

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Originally Posted by gumas

Just saw the (preliminary) patch, i dont see anything change on RDM, just increase potency buff thats it.

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Not only that, that radiant shield change make summoner lose around 150 dps.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Lol embolden is not worst raid dps utility in game. It is 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 2 / 5 = average 6% damage with same 1/6 uptime than brotherhood. On top of that it have good synergy between chain stratagem, trick attack, hypercharge etc while nobody else have 90 sec timer on their raidwide buff, I think so? It bring over 500 dps for good parties, problem is not utility, but rdm personal dps.

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Embolden is 120 seconds cd btw while Brotherhood is 90 seconds cd, while being far clunkier to use due to small burst windows before the damage starts to drop. RDM basically had low damage and low utility outside of being a portable res dispenser while training/bad raid groups

Btw seems the changes are:

Verthunder: Potency has been increased from 300 to 310.
Veraero: Potency has been increased from 300 to 310.
Scatter: Chance to be granted Enhanced Scatter has been increased from 25% to 30%. Enhanced Scatter Bonus has been increased from 8 to 10 Black Mana and White Mana.
Contre Sixte: Potency has been increased from 300 to 350.
Verflare: Potency has been increased from 550 to 600.
Verholy: Potency has been increased from 550 to 600.

Imo they tried the safe route and maybe a bit more was needed(personally i was expecting Veraero/Verthunder 320, Flechette 450 and Enhanced Scatter 50% proc aside those buffs ) but only time will tell

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Embolden is 120 seconds cd btw while Brotherhood is 90 seconds cd, while being far clunkier to use due to small burst windows before the damage starts to drop. RDM basically had low damage and low utility outside of being a portable res dispenser while training/bad raid groups

Btw seems the changes are:

Verthunder: Potency has been increased from 300 to 310.
Veraero: Potency has been increased from 300 to 310.
Scatter: Chance to be granted Enhanced Scatter has been increased from 25% to 30%. Enhanced Scatter Bonus has been increased from 8 to 10 Black Mana and White Mana.
Contre Sixte: Potency has been increased from 300 to 350.
Verflare: Potency has been increased from 550 to 600.
Verholy: Potency has been increased from 550 to 600.

Imo they tried the safe route and maybe a bit more was needed(personally i was expecting Veraero/Verthunder 320, Flechette 450 and Enhanced Scatter 50% proc aside those buffs ) but only time will tell

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Based by my fast* calculations rdm will gain around 150 - 180 dps and summoner lose half of radiant shield utility so rdm can catch summoner around 300 - 330 dps, it is pretty big buff for rdm. BLM gonna get around 250 dps buff so it will most likely be caster meta for singletarget. Sam buff is like 90 - 100 dps.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Based by my calculations rdm will gain around 200 dps and summoner lose half of radiant shield utility so rdm can catch summoner around 350 dps, it is pretty big buff for rdm.

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I agree its a pretty nice buff, just hope its enough since the support part wasnt touched.

I hope you guys are right because the buff doesn't seem like enough.

I really was hoping for more, like 320 for thunder/aero and 290-300 for fire/earth

The fact smn was nerf will indeed help.

Perhaps I should try to convince our smn to swap to rdm since he can't pull off good numbers anyway.

Well i mean smn in my opinion was still too strong and has seen much love while finally they decided to look at Red Mage.
It may seem like good buffs but i guess we will actually see the outcome, i would have preferred better changes to embolden that would benefit everyone not just select jobs.

And also thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread, it's good to discuss :)

Nerfing SMN won't make RDM/BLM automatically good. Why any caster would want SMN nerfed (aka kicked off the comp) is beyond me because it's just further proof that no lessons are being learned up at SE. It doesn't actually make anything better. What all casters should want is a hard push to break the whole DRG/BRD/NIN triad. Its like the physical jobs get perfect buffs for each other while the 3 casters are too busy fight over the scraps to realize that they are all getting the shaft.

Problem is that SMN is right now broken being the strongest magic damage dealer plus having utility to boot. They buffed RDM and BLM while nerfing SMN that was too good, dont see whats the issue with that

You can keep buffing all classes until they are on par but that creates balance problems by forcing entire game difficulty to go up or risk people falling asleep while playing due to being too easy after the buffs and also instead of regulating a few jobs you are forced to upgrade EVERY jobs but those that are on the top. No dev is gonna bother buffing most of the jobs jobs at once when they can just tone down the ones that are out of hand and only buff the ones underperforming

Physical meta is another issue

I wanna know how RDMs AoE is buffed with these changes. That's what I heard they were falling behind in AoE. Yeah Contre Sixte was buffed, but that feels minor compared to a 10 potency buff to Scatter.

Well we will not compete with aoe of that of blm or smn but at least be stronger then other jobs i guess? Rdm was not falling behind in aoe, it was already there.
At this point it is pure speculation however and i do not feel like doing calculations, haha

And my earlier comment i did not mean i think smn should have received changes despite it still being powerful. They simply do not know how to balance casters.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I wanna know how RDMs AoE is buffed with these changes. That's what I heard they were falling behind in AoE. Yeah Contre Sixte was buffed, but that feels minor compared to a 10 potency buff to Scatter.

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I think that Contre Sixte was mostly what they meant by "AoE buff" but, in theory, the buffs to Enhanced Scatter is supposed to make it easier to get Enhanced Moulinet, which is a 200 potency conal AoE.

Imo the biggest problem is that even after buff RDM aoe resource generation is vastly inferior to single target one. Baseline on single target a RDM earns 8.5 mana per gcd with no procs at all while on aoe he will earn 6 mana per gcd.

The issue is due to that on single targets the chance for procs are either 100% (impact) or 50%, so when things are proccing properly, single target mana earnings is boosted to 10 per gcd with over 50% chance(low cd Aceleration helps), while even after buff aoeing gives 13 mana with a 30% chance (post buff)

Thats the reason why RDM tend to start doing single target rotation when enemies drop to 3 since even if the damage is nearly the same (570/540 if forced to use Jolt II vs 600 on 2 gcds), the mana earnings are much better (and after buff the damage losses will be lower with VerAero/Thunder potency buff, because the chance of proccing Enhanced Scatter is still too low and that small amount of extra damage doesnt justify the mana losses even if they are not as big as before)

If we use a battle with 100 gcds RDM aoe average earnings post buff would be 810 mana, meanwhile if we use single target (not counting Acceleration nor Impact to simplify) a RDM earns 925 mana on average surpassing aoe generation even without using Acceleration and Impact at all which would have boosted the value even further and closer to 15-20% more mana earnings

All of this means that if a RDM has to aoe and doesnt have mana meter high already (or at least enough to be worth to Manafication it), the sweet Enhanced Moulinet time is delayed due to slower earnings and sometimes that time arrives too late when mobs are almost dead already or just too few remain

Correct me if I am wrong but assuming 100 gcds and a 30% proc rate, 30 scatters should value 20 instead of 6.

So 70 gcds are worth 6 Mana (3 white/3 black) = 420.
30 gcds are worth 20 Mana (10 white/10 black) = 600.

The new AoE values would generate 1020 Mana, not 810, correct?

I know this is in a vacuum and rng will do its thing though.

I'm at work right now and can't really do the math to model accelerate and impact, and probability of other procs for single target. It would be interesting to see it though if someone has time. It might be worth comparing scatter into veraero/verthunder Mana generation on 3 targets as well, since there is no potency loss that way.

Edit: Forgot, this would actually be a slight potency increase with changes to aero/thunder.

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Originally Posted by Zeign7

Correct me if I am wrong but assuming 100 gcds and a 30% proc rate, 30 scatters should value 20 instead of 6.

So 70 gcds are worth 6 Mana (3 white/3 black) = 420.
30 gcds are worth 20 Mana (10 white/10 black) = 600.

The new AoE values would generate 1020 Mana, not 810, correct?

I know this is in a vacuum and rng will do its thing though.

I'm at work right now and can't really do the math to model accelerate and impact, and probability of other procs for single target. It would be interesting to see it though if someone has time. It might be worth comparing scatter into veraero/verthunder Mana generation on 3 targets as well, since there is no potency loss that way.

Edit: Forgot, this would actually be a slight potency increase with changes to aero/thunder.

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Honestly i though about that as well, but remember that at least 50 of the gcds MUST be a normal Scatter, since Enhanced Scatter doesnt proc with itself, and need to start from Scatter so i considered the proc of 30% only on the remaniing 50 gcds. Even with 100% proc rate the max Enhanced Scatter possible on 100 gcds is just 50 not 99

So i used:

85 gcd of Scatter= 510 mana
15 gcd of Enhanced Scatter = 300 mana

Making a total of 810 mana

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Originally Posted by C_River

Nerfing SMN won't make RDM/BLM automatically good. Why any caster would want SMN nerfed (aka kicked off the comp) is beyond me because it's just further proof that no lessons are being learned up at SE. It doesn't actually make anything better. What all casters should want is a hard push to break the whole DRG/BRD/NIN triad. Its like the physical jobs get perfect buffs for each other while the 3 casters are too busy fight over the scraps to realize that they are all getting the shaft.

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Basically this. If every fight mandated a caster, and god I hope that's never the case because I value comp choice for the players (one of my least favorite parts about uwu was mandated caster despite being a caster main), then sure the nerf makes sense to hold all three in line.

But casters are fighting MCH for the fourth slot, and nerfing SMN didn't help BLM or RDM, it just helped MCH.

SE looked at the active raid player base, too many on smn => blm and rdm need buff

when smn drops again => smn needs buff

I think it's funny that their idea of a buff to AoE is on the part of AoE you generally don't want to be using in a raid setting.

Like no one wants to Scatter the Putrid Passenger adds during o5s, you want to preset your mana to 100 with Embolden and Manafaction ready.

I suppose it will be mildly helpful for dungeoning? The Contre buff is nice at least. Now as we're farming Shinryu I will probably one-shot the little adds.

Overall the more I think about and review how many times I use these skills over the course of a normal fight proportional to their potency increases the more I feel underwhelmed.

On my best Shinryu run which is pretty decent I would gain 610 potency from the Verthunder and Veraero buffs. 550 from the Contre buff (though I get two off on multiple targets during add phase and some others hit heart and main boss I think). 450 from Verfinishers. In a vacuum that's 1,510 potency over the course of a run.

By comparison the BLM in that same run who had an equally decent go of things gains 2,088 potency from the Fire IV buff when you factor in Astral Fire gains.

This is not in some kind of hyper-optimized raid setting, either. I would link the log if not for fear of getting banned for it. This means that a BLM (who already did the most dps of the casters) is gaining more from these buffs than a RDM (who already did the least damage of any job) which just feels kinda odd.

I am totally willing to wait and see how it all turns out on Tuesday and I'm sure I'll be too distracted by the pretty new primal and scary new raid tier to care much about any of this at that point but right now it feels like SE is just floundering with caster balance.

Don't get me started on the radiant shield thing. Now it's just another reason for SMN to use Garuda and buff their own damage even more with contagion. Again, thanks SE.

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Originally Posted by Bhearil

Honestly i though about that as well, but remember that at least 50 of the gcds MUST be a normal Scatter, since Enhanced Scatter doesnt proc with itself, and need to start from Scatter so i considered the proc of 30% only on the remaniing 50 gcds. Even with 100% proc rate the max Enhanced Scatter possible on 100 gcds is just 50 not 99

So i used:

85 gcd of Scatter= 510 mana
15 gcd of Enhanced Scatter = 300 mana

Making a total of 810 mana

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You can have enhanced scatter strings.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You can have enhanced scatter strings.

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If thats the case I stand corrected and in that case aoe value should be 1020

Also did a quick calc and added Impact to single target mana values, so without counting Accelerate the mana value is around 949 mana.

Seems the mana values on single target and aoe are now relatively similar with a marginal aoe advantage, but dont forget that Verholy/Flare refund 20 mana and have a 100%/20% chance to proc, while Enhanced Moulinet doesnt, so numbers would be even closer on a real situation where you actually use the expenders . Also, on single target is easier to recover from mana inbalances since you can focus on the kind of mana you are lacking. meanwhile if you start aoeing you will increase both at the same time which might be a problem if you started with some unbalanced mana values from the bat since no aoe skill can correct those values unless you switch to single target for a bit

On any case single target adds a more constant and reliable string of mana(single target 8.5 mana per gcd vs 6 aoeing both with no procs), while aoeing can bring even more mana... sometimes (10 mana single target vs 13 aoeing when chain proccing)

Yes blm can do more dmg in "certain" scenarios *cough* (padding), and on even ground it wasn't producing numbers where it was worth bringing over something that was a safer/brought more utility pick. We aren't even going to touch sam BEFORE it got buffed during mid sigma and even then its still not in a good spot. So no these blm and sam buffs are much needed and just seeing this fire iv 300 potency increase has me flashing back to when blm was announced it was getting buffed the first time in stormblood. The blm community literally did the math for the devs "300 potency for fire iv", we only got 280. Kinda sad/ironic seeing that in the patch notes this late in.

Smn has been the go to caster child for all content this expansion without a doubt. Kinda glad its getting a little baby bat nerf doesn't make sense how you advertise rdm/sam for your expansion and they aren't even mediocre at their roles. Hopefully the numbers we see change that. Also those aoe "buffs" are mainly for dungeon crawling, contre is a nice buff overall. There isn't an add phase long enough for you to get 3 moulinets off and scatter your way back to another 3 moulinets.

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Originally Posted by C_River

Nerfing SMN won't make RDM/BLM automatically good. Why any caster would want SMN nerfed (aka kicked off the comp) is beyond me because it's just further proof that no lessons are being learned up at SE. It doesn't actually make anything better. What all casters should want is a hard push to break the whole DRG/BRD/NIN triad. Its like the physical jobs get perfect buffs for each other while the 3 casters are too busy fight over the scraps to realize that they are all getting the shaft.

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I know that there's already been a few responses, and while you are correct about the Triad, you don't seem to fully understand the actual problem people have had with SMN.

Summoner is quite frankly the perfect DPS as far as FFXIV is concerned. It has

A. Excellent damage.
B. Decent support capabilities (albeit, not as much as dedicated supports like NIN, BRD and MCH, but still enough to pull its weight by giving a universal 2% damage increase, a further 2% for physical classes (which helps in the physical meta) and a further 10% for magic classes (since pet dancing is actually viable))
C. Almost Red Mage levels of mobility without losing out on most of their damage.

Point A. is handled under three points:

I: Whether you like it or not, their DoTs generate far more damage than one would like to admit. Applying both is a 100 DPT (Damage per tic) and between spreading it with Bane, using them to trigger Fester, and using Tri-Disaster which also gives a pseudo-DoT in Ruination (by buffing Ruin spells by 20 potency), there is no reason you won't have that 100 potency on your targets. The only other class with as good DoTs in the game is Bard, but that class also happens to be on the lower end of pure damage on its own.

II: Their pets are free damage, even with their slight decrease in damage versus the caster... though, this can be mitigated by Enkindle, Bahamut, and Rouse. Also, the pets dealing damage also decrease the CD of Enkindle, as well as grant Ruin IV, for further DPS boosts.

III: Their oGCD game is also quite impressive, even as a Caster. Compared to most other classes, Summoner can unleash a whopping 900 potency every minute through Fester (all three of which within 15 seconds), a Deathflare in that same minute for another 300 potency (that's also an AoE with dropoff) all on top of their DoTs and potential Ruin IVs. Within two minutes, they can get 1800 potency from Fester, 600 potency from Deathflare... and almost 1400 potency from Akh Morn. There might be some pet damage reduction for Akh Morn, but it's still an impressive amount for two minutes. By comparison, Red Mage can only get 840 from Fleche and (currently) 300 from Contre Sexte, without DoTs and only their (albeit, potent) spells for damage in that minute. Within two minutes, Fleche becomes 2940 potency (with 7.2 casts in that two minutes, rounding down to 7), and 1200 potency from Contre Sexte. Summoner outpaces Red Mage in a minute in oGCDs by 60, but is SLIGHTLY outpaced by Red Mage in two minute by 340 potency. On the surface? That doesn't seem so bad. But... because their pets and DoTs also exist, alongside inbuilt (and good) support options, Summoner will STILL outpace Red Mage in the long run. Note that I removed Enkindle from the equation because of both the pet damage decrease and the fact that its cooldown is variable due to the Enkindle Mastery trait.

IV: In addition to all of the above, Summoners can quite literally "always be casting". Not only because they're only stuck to 2.5s base cast times while Black Mage often has 2.8s cast times, but they only lose 20 potency per cast when they DO move, where as Black Mage goes all the way down to 100 potency over (currently) 555 potency unless Triple/Swiftcasting and Red Mage outright lack an instant cast outside of Swiftcast or Dualcasts. Unless of course, your pet procs Ruin IV, then you just get back the potency you would have lost plus interest. And while in Dreadwyrm Trance? Not only do you gain a boost in damage for Ruin III, but it also becomes Instant Cast itself, further decreasing the risk of movement. With DoTs in place, and their pet attacking, a Summoner gets about 300 potency per 3 seconds, Red Mage 285 potency per three seconds (the average of Verstone/Impact/Verfire and Verthunder/Veraero) and Black Mage 555. Red Mage has objectively worse support options than SMN, but still deals less damage, and Black Mage won't inflict enough damage to make up for the support options that SMN provides to other classes, since 5/8 of them will be getting a 2% * 2% increase from Devotion+Radiant Shield, and 3/8 (including the summoner) will get a 2% * 10% increase from Devotion+Contagion, not to mention Black Mage doesn't rez.

The physical meta's problem has to do with support options rather than "these classes deal so much damage, oooo yeah~". Even WITH the nerf, SMN will still more likely have a place in the meta than Red Mage and Black Mage due to increasing with the other multipliers. Red Mage's boost might give it a chance with its crappy Embolden and its decent damage, and maybe Black Mage's damage + filler will give it a fighting chance too, but Summoner will not lose its place unless something serious happens to the class as a whole and not just "oops we lost the reflect potency from Radiant Shield!".

SMN has always been good. Even in ARR it would outpace BLM depending on the fight. I'm happy they're nerfing Radiant Shield's damage, since it was hard to gauge how good it was without FF Logs, and the damage nerf is needed. However, I'm still not happy with how SMN is in terms of flow and design. Since the beginning of Stormblood I've been mad about how they've approached SMN in general.

I still want the Aetherflow lockouts removed, and for Bahamut to only trigger on spells. Summon: Bahamut should have been integrated into DWT and thus trigger every three minutes instead of every second as a result. Make Enkindle into Enkindle Bahamut when Bahamut is out too and reduce it's CD to 60s instead of that god awful trait tied to the Ruin IV proc.

Tri-disaster should've never gotten a reset. Imo Contagion/Radiant Shield's Phys/Magic Vul Up debuffs should be applied by this instead. With Bahamut giving a general Vul Up. Remove Ruination entirely, and make the pet skills deal damage.

Bane is nowhere near as good as it used to be and I'd rather see it's minimum damage cap at 40% instead of 20% in exchange for removing the Tri-Bind buff. It honestly felt like they bugged the skill out in HW.

They need a different form of filler to make up for all of this, obviously. So remove the Ruin IV procs. Just make Ruin IV and Ruin III available through DWT, and a reliable resource/proc otherwise. Hell, making pet abilities (not the auto-spells) trigger the proc guaranteed would be good enough. Or DWT charges up the resource and you can spend it where you want outside of it. Either way, they need something unique to break up the constant Ruin III spam. That's what their DoTs did in ARR and HW, even with old contagion.

Obviously none of that's gonna happen till 5.0, but it's still on my wishlist.

As for RDM, I hope they get some harder hitting mana spenders in their spell rotation for 5.0 as well as a lower cooldown on Manafication, to make it better to juggle your mana around 40-50 while waiting till it's up. Verblizzard/water would be obvious contenders for that. That, an MP Restore/damage oGCD in the form of Osmose, and maybe Scatter II to improve their AoE, would pretty much fix every issue with an ability/trait to spare.

I'm probably going to get alot of slack but I hope they give red mages more healing or support spells. Hey are red mages after all and I like the idea of rdm being a support job than just a plain Damage dealer

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I'm probably going to get alot of slack but I hope they give red mages more healing or support spells. Hey are red mages after all and I like the idea of rdm being a support job than just a plain Damage dealer

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If only this game supported JOAT jobs like that.

I have to disagree with you, if only because of how this game works. I like RDM's portrayal in it, even if I have to put up with being raise bot.

Major problem is RDM is closest I can get to being a magic swordsman dps. That's the class fantasy I want. Unfortunately it comes on the same job that you have your own desires for the RDM class fantasy of being a JOAT.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I'm probably going to get alot of slack but I hope they give red mages more healing or support spells. Hey are red mages after all and I like the idea of rdm being a support job than just a plain Damage dealer

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in 5.0 we might see a support healing spell or two but if we do they need to have either:

No effect on a RDM's personal DPS or as situationally effective as Vercure for Dualcast proc without a target.

In 4.0 all I would want is something like erase getting buffed to 400 potency and 60 seconds to get a sort of "Yay I'm helping" feeling.

in 5.0 I could see something like a long duration regen. Casting on yourself or the tank during down time to help heal when the boss returns, while also proccing dual cast. Something like 70 potency for 45 seconds. (Thats 1050 potency, which is the same as regen. 150 potency over 21 seconds = 1050 potency.)

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I'm probably going to get alot of slack but I hope they give red mages more healing or support spells. Hey are red mages after all and I like the idea of rdm being a support job than just a plain Damage dealer

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im all for it getting more things to support healers like mantra or bards buff maybe even embolden becoming a Damage and heal buff
but not give the job more heals

my main issue with RDM's Vercure and Verraise mainly verraise its basically allows some healers to kinda rely on it and slack off
"its okay if i die the RDM can easily pick me up again"

i don't think RDM should be so basic with its moves either only two moves have side effects
Scatter and Jolt and that just makes them a stronger version

Not give the job more healing spells? But they are red mages.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

If only this game supported JOAT jobs like that.

I have to disagree with you, if only because of how this game works. I like RDM's portrayal in it, even if I have to put up with being raise bot.

Major problem is RDM is closest I can get to being a magic swordsman dps. That's the class fantasy I want. Unfortunately it comes on the same job that you have your own desires for the RDM class fantasy of being a JOAT.

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Actually I'm not looking for FFXIV RDM to be JOAT, but more like it's FFXI counterpart, White magic and Black magic spells but doesn't use top tier spells. The problem I have with FFXIV RDM identity is that it's a burst turret with a sword, given the fact that it can cure ( weak one that can't do much anything), it's not much different from summoner as they both can raise, and the other one has a pet. I would like to see RDM identity really shine and able to use both black and white spells and not just all about Damage but Support spells and healing spells. Also red mages ( other Final Fantasy games) are able to use Swords and shields so it's not wrong to be a magical sword man DPS.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Actually I'm not looking for FFXIV RDM to be JOAT, but more like it's FFXI counterpart, White magic and Black magic spells but doesn't use top tier spells. The problem I have with FFXIV RDM identity is that it's a burst turret with a sword, given the fact that it can cure ( weak one that can't do much anything), it's not much different from summoner as they both can raise, and the other one has a pet. I would like to see RDM identity really shine and able to use both black and white spells and not just all about Damage but Support spells and healing spells. Also red mages ( other Final Fantasy games) are able to use Swords and shields so it's not wrong to be a magical sword man DPS.

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While it would be really neat to have rdm be more... red magey with more white magic healing, it doesn't really give the job any secure place in savage/ult content. That would limit rdm to basically being the king of solo content, but in raids that are balanced to not require dps healing, groups wouldn't want to sacrifice the damage. Which would slide rdm back into their current position of being a crutch to allow the party to see mechanics in a fight to prog, before swapping out to a job that does greater damage to get the kill. And that seems to be the issue rdm mains are most concerned with.

I could see giving them additional dps boosting support, or damage mitigation type support spells however to be a little closer to bard in regards to their role in a party.

Something like a group wide lesser shield on a semi long cd to assist in lessening healer load, while also building free limit break would be pretty nice. Not strong enough to justify a sch not using deploy, but more similar to troubadour in regards to efficiency.

I was thinking what if RDM has some kind of Synastry type ability or trait that gave it access to a different branch of actions depending on the party setup, and they could switch between it like tanks do with their stances. Having casters present effects it's Black Magic kit, healers White Magic and physical it's melee skills. Essentially one action wouldn't be more powerful than another, but it could give access to more spells from WHM/BLM depending on the situation. So linking with a caster could change Vercure to an offensive spell and boost process chance for Black Magic, linking to a healer could switch Vercure to a mitigation shield in and also boost process chance for White Magic etc. In the end RDM should be allowed to do more damage to make it attractive as a pick, but there must be a compromise on it's utility.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Actually I'm not looking for FFXIV RDM to be JOAT, but more like it's FFXI counterpart, White magic and Black magic spells but doesn't use top tier spells. The problem I have with FFXIV RDM identity is that it's a burst turret with a sword, given the fact that it can cure ( weak one that can't do much anything), it's not much different from summoner as they both can raise, and the other one has a pet. I would like to see RDM identity really shine and able to use both black and white spells and not just all about Damage but Support spells and healing spells. Also red mages ( other Final Fantasy games) are able to use Swords and shields so it's not wrong to be a magical sword man DPS.

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This hearkens back to understanding the game we're playing. The healer's healing is so op in every scenario, ultimate included, that they're not really picked for their own healing abilities but their dps ones.

That's *healers.* Healers are bickering over dps potential and dps support potential because damage is the factor for whether their favorite job gets taken.

So turning that on its inverse, you're not going to make a lot of people happy with your "but it has healer support" dps. Healers don't need that support and they'd sooner take another job that's good at dps than a RDM with healer support.

Maybe if it was like bard's support, which includes mana refresh, group mitigation, and groupwide buffs, that would be fine. But vermedica won't help anyone.