The toxic Pagos bottleneck and how to solve it

Howdy all,

I rarely post here so I’ll try to make it count and avoid writing an essay. Anyway as we know a week or so after it came out SE massively boosted NM spawns and XP presumably after seeing a massive dropout in the number of casual players that it was designed for. This saved the content for a short time at least as it brought back the Fate Train which at least made the content bearable and gave it a social aspect. Unfortunately this has created another considerable problem in that when players get to lv35 they are still massively short of light crystals required to get a single weapon. The only way to do that effectively, albeit still taking a long time, is by light farming in a few specific locations. Since however there are now so many lv35’s and so few decent spawn locations there is a massive and increasingly toxic bottleneck as players fight over those locations that will just get bigger and bigger until once again the casual players you designed this for will just drop out.

To fix this I suggest the following changes: reduce light crystal requirements for a weapon to step 1=2 crystals, step 2=3 crystals, step 3=5 crystals. This will allow most players upon getting to lv35 to get a weapon then or shortly thereafter and then leave the content behind making room for others. Let’s be honest, it’s just not fun and I thought that “Should always be fun” was a central design principle for the game.

Anyway thanks for reading, Azure

TIL competing to see who can occupy a good farming spot in a mmorpg is considered toxic.

An alternate fix would be change the kill credit system which is the root cause here. If you hit the mob and it dies, you get your credit. Make is similar to NM/Fate credit system.

Party does less than 10% damage - Bronze effort, 15% chance of feeble light and 25% XP.
Party does 10% to 30% damage - Silver effort, 30% chance of feeble light, 10% chance of gentle light and 50% XP.
Party does more than 30% damage - Gold effort, 50% feeble, 20% gentle, 5% bright, 100% XP.
Actual numbers are my suggestions and have no expectation of being used.

No more splitting credit that is currently in place. This will help both light farming and XP chain values.
There are many complaints around these forums about AFKers not helping spawn NMs because there is almost no incentive reason to bother helping out. Unless your whole party is strong enough, you will get absolutely nothing for your efforts, so, why bother.

I agree with OP on the bottleneck problem, since I had the exact same problems with all the good light farming spots being taken. Once had a party in Pagos, went out and reformed through PF to get into a new and fresh Pagos instance, but as soon as we got in, the very same spot was already taken by another group...

But don't you think reducing the crystal requirement would make getting the relic a little too easy ? I would lower the value of the item, its "exclusivity". This kind of nerf is more welcome when the expansion is nearing its end, like the previous relic nerfs. It would anger quite a few people who farmed a lot to get those before everyone.

But it would be indeed the faster way to solve this problem.
Or may be add more dragons...

It's almost as if fate-training your way to 35 wasn't the intended method to get light. What a pity that nobody ever told fate train whiners that this would happen...oh wait.

But to answer your question Yoshi said this about Pagos at Gamescon.

"So, with the last patch, we didn't really increase the NM spawn rate to as much as it was before [in Anemos], but we increased the amount of EXP they give. It's not as effective as it was in Anemos, but you can still wait for NM spawns if you want to. But for the weapon upgrades, your predecessors spent a lot of time and effort farming mobs to grow stronger, so we won't ease up on that. Please learn how to do that."

So I wouldn't hold your breath for any nerfs just yet.

Your fix for a "toxic bottleneck" is to reduce the number of frosted crystals required from 31 to 10? Why isn't the suggestion to make other sources of light farming available?

or the community needs to theorycraft a better method for farming light. currently the most efficient method has not been found.

Pagos is too much of a mess to fix.

Please stop trying to give easily to everyone some items that other players did get the hard way at the very beginning. It is an humiliation of all the efforts they have made, and they must feel so outraged by your idea.

... errr nevermind, i thought i was in the white raven earrings thread XD

Party system to it a huge mess. You join party 20 minutes later one has to leave then disbands few seconds later. They need to make Eureka where any class can solo it easy without needing to join a party. Treasure chests is huge mess when all ever get is worthless junk and never items you want. Just hope they look back at Pagos and make next area Logos way better. First fix they need to do is fix light you need. Easy fix let you trade in Pagos crystals for frosted crystals like Anemos has. Another thing they need to fix is item drops from nm's there. like today killed Copycat Cassie got gold rating no earring. I was told it was 100% drop rate if got gold rating guess that's another lie.

Apperently Dragons r more efficient infact i get 4-5 lights pr instance and that is 3 hours.
And also they got low level mobs nearby which reduces the danger alot, and reason why people don’t farm morbols(respawns may hit a party member, bad breath mistake but trying to spawn cassie is a pro!), griffin(if the hlr tries to rest a sec and tnk not popping cd they might die) or chimera.

Alubys works but it’s slow compared to dragons(got like 2 and 2/3 light in 3 hours) but hey! Atleast it gives gold boxes which is neat!
There r time i have to hop different instance for dragon spots. And there r times i see people fight eachother for a spot.

This problem to this may occur but at the same time it will become more of a habit.
People want the simpliest exit and that is dragons and alubys. And say there r 4/5 spots open for light farmer in an instance.(gor dragon and alubys solely). The problem is they r easy targets by playerbase who wants the quickest safer method on getting lights or chests. So i assume people eat what they were given by SE and doing it by greed. People steal spot or people just cannot.

I dont think the problem is the lights for each stage is the problem.
Its cearly the RNG behind of getting light oh and also RNG light after adaption/mutation.(BONUS LIGHT!!).
And the locations and some mobs that gives «rare high rank» light such morbols and chimeras. And at the same time their location is deadly so u might die even tho u think ur safe.

We can just put dragons as sturdy and anubys as robust hence why people spammed a1s run cuse its consistent
And kind of easy and quick. So it may (not excactly) stems from there. As i mentioned the playerbase wants the quickest and more efficient way.

What grinds my gears is when you try to form a light group yet half of them spend 10 minutes running to and from a FATE for less light than you would have if you carried on grinding.

It’s been stated by Yoshida that the optimal way to farm has yet to be found.

That’s ok by me; I have 2 weapons done and will not return to Pagos until the light farm is “properly discovered” and/or nerfed.

Doubling light gain would be nice, though I don't really expect something like that until 4.4 at the very least.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

What grinds my gears is when you try to form a light group yet half of them spend 10 minutes running to and from a FATE for less light than you would have if you carried on grinding.

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Usually a good idea when you start the group before beginning the chain to agree on what NM's you will or won't visit. For example most groups I join won't do any NM unless its on the top half of the map. Anything on the bottom being a complete waste of time.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

It's almost as if fate-training your way to 35 wasn't the intended method to get light. What a pity that nobody ever told fate train whiners that this would happen...oh wait.

But to answer your question Yoshi said this about Pagos at Gamescon.

"So, with the last patch, we didn't really increase the NM spawn rate to as much as it was before [in Anemos], but we increased the amount of EXP they give. It's not as effective as it was in Anemos, but you can still wait for NM spawns if you want to. But for the weapon upgrades, your predecessors spent a lot of time and effort farming mobs to grow stronger, so we won't ease up on that. Please learn how to do that."

So I wouldn't hold your breath for any nerfs just yet.

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Only when they learn to develop good content.

In a zone with upwards of 144 people, there shouldn't be only a very small corner of mobs that are efficient for grinding light. This basically forces groups to either fight over it, in which case, no one benefits, one group to suffer insignificant gains or server hop hoping to get that elusive spot. It's a poor design no matter how you slice it.

How about Yoshi goes into Pagos and is told he can't leave until he gets speed belt, cassie earring, and shiver emote. Then he know how we feel being in there hour after hour and never getting one of those items. Bet he be pulling his hair out from being in there that long. Maybe then they will fix it and make it right.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

How about Yoshi goes into Pagos and is told he can't leave until he gets speed belt, cassie earring, and shiver emote. Then he know how we feel being in there hour after hour and never getting one of those items. Bet he be pulling his hair out from being in there that long. Maybe then they will fix it and make it right.

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That's hardly an argument considering nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you get those items. They don't offer such an advantage that it matters whether you have them or not.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

That's hardly an argument considering nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you get those items. They don't offer such an advantage that it matters whether you have them or not.

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Then we better not hear you complain at all about Eureka. Because from what you just said no one is forcing you to be it there. Some of us wants the items and spent well over 100+ hours trying to get them. Looks like your not one of them trying to get them.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

That's hardly an argument considering nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you get those items. They don't offer such an advantage that it matters whether you have them or not.

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Actually, it's a fair argument under the pretense Yoshida has essentially blamed the players for not enjoying the content. Therefore, if the content is something we should learn and enjoy, telling him to partake in it is fair game. After all, he should love.

Let's be honest though. They put the relic in Eureka in the hopes of avoiding another Diadem disaster. They're desperate to make this type of content work and it simply isn't.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Then we better not hear you complain at all about Eureka. Because from what you just said no one is forcing you to be it there. Some of us wants the items and spent well over 100+ hours trying to get them. Looks like your not one of them trying to get them.

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Eureka has been garbage since it's inception with Anemos, but I'm doing it because I want that eyeball on a stick. I'm just saying that your suggestion to make someone sit and fight with RNG for a few items that have next to 0 impact on gameplay, just because you want them and haven't got them, is downright ridiculous. I bet if he did do it and got lucky by getting all 3 items in a single lockout you would be singing a different tune.

"You're playing the game therefore you can't complain about it" - that's basically what you said. Nobody is forcing me to play the game, but I do, so I'm not allowed to recognise the flaws that plague it and voice an opinion, right?

I am just going to wait until they nerf it to go in pagos. Right now imo it's the worst. Idk why the relic is linked to this crap. SB imo will go down as my most disliked expansion

Is this more or a less a thread about groups occupying farming spots? That is a new one.

Just wait for legit nerfs, I guess. The devs don't have that quick a turnaround time to rebalance the map before the problem solves itself, as people drop out naturally. I think it should stay as a cautionary "be careful what you ask for when you want it to be harder" tale, though.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

Is this more or a less a thread about groups occupying farming spots? That is a new one.

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I'm surprised people are surprised, in FFXI people used to monster player kill, over pull, and drive people out of best farming spots. Usually group games tended to develop norms to deal with this, like moving to other camps or avoiding heavily contested ones.

I did not play FFXI but did they complain about other groups occupying the more efficient spots or did they ask for nerfs / changes? That is the surprising granted Pagos and Eureka have a litany of issues, just seems like an odd complainant.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Just wait for legit nerfs, I guess. The devs don't have that quick a turnaround time to rebalance the map before the problem solves itself, as people drop out naturally. I think it should stay as a cautionary "be careful what you ask for when you want it to be harder" tale, though.



I'm surprised people are surprised, in FFXI people used to monster player kill, over pull, and drive people out of best farming spots. Usually group games tended to develop norms to deal with this, like moving to other camps or avoiding heavily contested ones.

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This has nothing to do with hard because it isn't hard. Its a mixture of hardhitting mobs and a braindead grind of the same stuff over and over which results in a complete mess and not in hard content. If people would want to play a korean grinder they would not play this game but a korean grinder.

This is also not FFXI its FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

It's almost as if fate-training your way to 35 wasn't the intended method to get light. What a pity that nobody ever told fate train whiners that this would happen...oh wait.

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I didn't do the fate train to get to lvl 35 myself, and I was still left with 6-8 crystals I had to collect. I am wondering if it might actually be beneficial to de-level yourself, so you can farm at different locations and get more light

I have had it worse in another game when it comes to spots where there's too many players and too little mobs. I remember I would have to log into the german servers just to find a spare spot.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

I did not play FFXI but did they complain about other groups occupying the more efficient spots or did they ask for nerfs / changes? That is the surprising granted Pagos and Eureka have a litany of issues, just seems like an odd complainant.

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There were no forums back then so if you didn't like something in XI, pretty much tough luck. People mostly just dealt with it and found another camp, courtesy played a role, if people were there first sometimes no problem people would just leave, other times people fought over it and drove the other people out. You would search the area and see if someone was there by checking their search comment and what camp they are at (they would put the coords in their search comment and how long they were staying). If there were too many groups around in one camp no one got good exp.

In XI there was a claiming system, so if you touched it first no one but you and your group could hit it. Pagos doesn't so you could troll pretty easily just by tapping other people's stuff, ruining their light gain and they can't do anything about it without reporting.

They really just need to make the other high level camps more attractive or implement a level sync so more mobs are viable, that way you can find a camp somewhere else instead of the anubys/dragon that everyone does. Maybe add a slight light/exp bonus if you sync down to someone below 30 and scale the exp like you were killing lvl38-40 mobs for players whose elvl is 35, to help the new players out since the NMs in the bottom half of the map are usually not done often unless they magically spawn since the rewards are complete garbage for higher level players. (Snow Queen drops 1 measly pagos crystal when you need 500)

I don't think they are going to nerf it by 66% though, not something that was just released a couple weeks ago. Maybe a bit later.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Let's be honest though. They put the relic in Eureka in the hopes of avoiding another Diadem disaster. They're desperate to make this type of content work and it simply isn't.

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And even then it wasn't enough for some us. That should tell them what a colossal dumpster fire Eureka has been.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

An alternate fix would be change the kill credit system which is the root cause here. If you hit the mob and it dies, you get your credit. Make is similar to NM/Fate credit system.

Party does less than 10% damage - Bronze effort, 15% chance of feeble light and 25% XP.
Party does 10% to 30% damage - Silver effort, 30% chance of feeble light, 10% chance of gentle light and 50% XP.
Party does more than 30% damage - Gold effort, 50% feeble, 20% gentle, 5% bright, 100% XP.
Actual numbers are my suggestions and have no expectation of being used.

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I thought this is what already happened (approximately) with monster EXP? First person/party to hit it gets 100% credit, everyone else gets credit according to how much damage they inflicted?

Legit no need to nerf light when this is the easiest pre nerf light farm ,
You nerf light people like me who make loads of relics get done faster
And are finished with pagos then less people to help new players and content struggles more.

"But i dont want to grind light for hours or square enix will give me carpal tunnel because i dont have any restraints or understand the concept of a break"

No one is forcing you to grind for 10 hours and kill your hands do one light a day or even like 50 minutes a day like there is 3 months atleast till next area of eureka really no need to burn yourself out ,when MH4U first came out i played that for almost a week straight nearly giving myself carpal tunnel did i blame capcom for my own ignorance?
No.

To slove the problem of groups taking adds and there is no spot to farm
Is make more adds give a decent light/mutation rate like Farming dragons or anubis
Griffins,Morbols,Val archers,Gobuls,blocky guys,snakes,Plants near the crystal fountain,Chimeras,wyverns in the cave even sprites so there is plenty of options to farm.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

This has nothing to do with hard because it isn't hard..

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then go do it as intended, you can learn to git gud at grinding like you ask others to git gud at the game. Or don't at all.

They designed a certain way, it sucks, but they apparently want to make content for people who like grinding. I don't know why, but at this point, expecting them to radically change any content nay time soon is pointless. So either do it as intended or dont. Part of the old school experience was learning to deal with other people and camping issues, because no matter how big a zone, there always are just a few decent camp spots. Players need to worj it out on their own, devs can't fix people griping or they would have fixed me a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I thought this is what already happened (approximately) with monster EXP? First person/party to hit it gets 100% credit, everyone else gets credit according to how much damage they inflicted?

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I believe this is how exp works in the main game but pagos appears to be different. The "first tagged" monsters do not payout full exp if even one other person attacks it. I don\\'t know exact percentages but it\\'s enough to discourage farming in that area. I think light works the same way so multiple parties greatly lowers light payouts - even if monster is claimed first by you. Once again I have no exact science, just commenting from my journey through pagos.

Hmm. I guess it makes sense if it’s expected that multiple parties will be ‘sharing’ targets, so it doesn’t turn into a complete mess as everyone tries to be first to tag things (and perhaps end up drawing in too many enemies overall).

Still, I would have thought it’s dividing the max reward among everyone that hits it, according to how much they hit it.

Unless there’s some kind of awkward thing with rounding down percentages. Especially if the rewards come in bigger ‘chunks’ than can be divided precisely.

So back in EQ there were a handful of good camp spots in a zone. Groups would claim the spot. Sometimes other groups would train mobs on them to kill them all and steal the spot. But often people would queue up into lines to get into spots in the groups as they opened...

And that's as stupid of a way to design your content now as it was back then. This game is not XI. If they wanted to have an "XI zone" then they should have made one and kept the damned relic out of it. Because it wasn't the casual playerbase who these weapons were originally aimed at who were clamoring for a return to XI. But that playerbase is being punished because the weapon they use to play catch up with is linked to this dumpster fire.

My take in all of this is very simple. I don’t like Eureka. At all. The whole concept.

Because for me it’s not fun I don’t do it. Simple.

If SE checks my profile they will see that I have done relics in Heavensward. I have gone into Eureka maybe 2 days and never appeared again.
Maybe if they change whole concept again I might do relics again, until then for me it’s just a piece of content in this game that is dead.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

How about Yoshi goes into Pagos and is told he can't leave until he gets speed belt, cassie earring, and shiver emote. Then he know how we feel being in there hour after hour and never getting one of those items. Bet he be pulling his hair out from being in there that long. Maybe then they will fix it and make it right.

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Here's a thought though.
For him to say that must mean he's actually doing it somehow, or is getting feedback from somewhere/one about how the players are doing things. Even if it's just reading JP blogs (since the odds of him giving two shakes about the NA/EU community is slim here), he's still gotta be abreast of how things are going in this "oh so great" content.

Fate train may be back but they are not like they were in anemos. Right now the bottleneck is players whom are 30 and below that. No one is doing southern fate trains and for the past two days i have not gotten into a group for challenge logs or fate trains. It is taking an hour to find a group if that. There are not enough lower players. Most are now 30 - 35 and want no part of southern pagos. i now have to form one outside eureka until se gets it together and realize that the entire system works best when it is tied to nms. This is supposed to be a group venture and no one is working together like anemos was.

They have it where all types of lvls are brought in for lvling dungeons even 60+ for satasha sadly. They need to do that here get higher lvls working on lower lvl fates. That means making it work like anemos. Sure i complained to high hell about it but it worked this has not.

imo SE doesn’t need to reduce the light needed as much as increase the light various mobs give. Theres 2 good places to farm dragons and 3 places to farm anubys. If those are taken you’re stuck hopping instances or hoping one of the groups in a good area chases a NM and you/your group take it when they leave (aaand hope they let you be when they return). While some people would inevitably still fight over the best spots, alternative monsters to farm would at least give other highlv groups something to grind.

It legit scares me that there are people actually defending pagos' crap gameplay. Just goes to show, rabid Fanboys will love anything that square spits out, no wonder how awful it is. o.0