Zenos the SAM

So Zenos, for all intents and purposes, was a SAM but how does he use SAM skills which require aether manipulation? Is it from the artificial echo or his mystery sword.... both? His suit?

The enchanted swords are one angle, I'm sure. But can someone who can't wield magicks wield enchanted items? That's something I'm curious about. The sword has power, but can a Garlean tap it properly? Manipulate it properly?

However, there's a back-up inference that can be made. When Fordola is introduced to the machine that will copy the Echo onto her, Aulus spends most of his time talking - not about the mysterious Gods-given powers of the savages - but magicks in general. It's possible that Aulus just copied a mage's aetherial signature onto Zenos a while back and then copied the Echo onto him later. That would explain a lot.

Yeah, I just figured that perhaps the Resonance is what gave Zenos access to manipulate aether the way he does, although I couldn't tell you how exactly. Which begs the question: when precisely was Zenos instilled with the Resonance? I mean, yes the Resonance itself wasn't touched on until later in the 4.0 story. But I don't remember anything saying specifically that Zenos didn't have the experiments done on him prior to that point. He could have had it as early as our first encounter with him at Rhalgr's Reach even. Of course, perhaps this was clarified and I've either missed it or forgotten.

To this, it's important to get the questions answered in order.

When did Zenos obtain Resonance?
-Well... if we're to assume he used the same source Fordola's came from (Krile), it would have to be between our duel in Yanxia and when we returned to Eorzea.

Is Resonance what let Zenos wield his enchanted katana?
-Probably not. Even during the duel with him in Rhalgr's Reach, he was already using the Storm and Swell to produce lightning bolts and bursts of wind. I don't remember where, but one of his bios mentioned he was already augmented before the events of Stormblood; assuming aetherial conductivity is necessary to wield enchanted katana like Zenos does, Aulus probably made that possible for him.

Side note: though he uses the same weapon(s), Zenos fights nothing like a SAM unless you consider some of his techniques to be hyper-augmented versions of SAM abilities (Storm, Swell, Sword being a massively enhanced Midare Setsugekka, f'ex).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

To this, it's important to get the questions answered in order.

When did Zenos obtain Resonance?
-Well... if we're to assume he used the same source Fordola's came from (Krile), it would have to be between our duel in Yanxia and when we returned to Eorzea.

Is Resonance what let Zenos wield his enchanted katana?
-Probably not. Even during the duel with him in Rhalgr's Reach, he was already using the Storm and Swell to produce lightning bolts and bursts of wind. I don't remember where, but one of his bios mentioned he was already augmented before the events of Stormblood; assuming aetherial conductivity is necessary to wield enchanted katana like Zenos does, Aulus probably made that possible for him.

Side note: though he uses the same weapon(s), Zenos fights nothing like a SAM unless you consider some of his techniques to be hyper-augmented versions of SAM abilities (Storm, Swell, Sword being a massively enhanced Midare Setsugekka, f'ex).

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You do raise an excellent point in regards to Krile (I mistakenly remembered her kidnapping being earlier than it actually was). The other augmentations would make sense as well. I wonder if we'll get more elaboration on the nature of what kinds of stuff he went through in the future, in the light of recent events. Probably not, but it would be interesting to get some more background at least.

The Krile thing was the clincher for me, as well. The reason he leaves Doma in such a rush is because he gets word that they found Shinryu. Until that point, there was no rush, but after that...

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

...I wonder if we'll get more elaboration on the nature of what kinds of stuff he went through in the future, in the light of recent events. Probably not, but it would be interesting to get some more background at least.

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I'd like to know more about Zenos' past as well; he's written off as nothing more than a monster in human skin, but in the same expansion with Fordola and Yotsuyu (both of who had tragic pasts and were greatly sympathized with by the players) he really stands out.

Not that it would change anything.

I have a feeling Zenos' past will come up. Either because Elidibus keeps needling Varis with it, or because Fordla can't turn off her ability to see into people's pasts and she and Zenos are in the same region. Or because Zenos kinda likes to talk to/at us a lot and the odds of him letting something slip are good. There's been enough hints dropped of the "your son was an experiment" variety for me to think that it was significant on multiple fronts. We tend to get a front-row seat to those with the Echo...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

It's possible that Aulus just copied a mage's aetherial signature onto Zenos a while back and then copied the Echo onto him later. That would explain a lot.

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As well as his powers and timeline, that would add up with the reveal that both his eyes take on the creepy Resonant appearance - he's had the procedure twice.

I always assumed Zenos' Pre-Resonant Abilities were a combination of owning Magical Katana and the Revolver Holster/Golf bag that allowed for activating the katana

I hope you'll forgive the necro, but I've been wondering about Zenos' abilities and thought maybe someone better versed in lore could shed some light.

Iirc a big part of Fordola's story is that because Krile was used as a 'template' for her resonant abilities, she gained an extraordinary degree of empathy along with everything else and is now tormented by knowing just how much people hate her. I can't remember who explained it but I do recall someone telling the WoL that the Echo manifests in different ways in each individual and that if a different Scion had been used, the result would have been very different.

That got me thinking about Zenos. He has no empathy (as far as I can see), in fact he seems completely unable to feel anything, which led me to wonder if Krile really was the 'template' for him. Could it have been someone else? Could Minfillia's kidnapping (which we foiled way back in ARR) have been part of this project? Were all the scions involved in the attack on the Waking Sands accounted for?

Really interesting to note that Zenos appears to have undergone the procedure twice. Which means Krile could have been used for the second procedure but doesn't explain why the effects seem so dissimilar to Fordola's, unless going through such a drastic procedure twice has made Zenos less 'stable'.
When we see Asahi's past in the cutscene in the A Rise of a New Sun quest, Zenos's makes a dramatic entry with a blast of energy that knocks back the Resistance group threatening Asahi. I guess the question is, was that magic or magitek? If Zenos was a Resonant then, that would predate Krile's kidnapping by quite some time.

(Pure speculation) - Since Varis speaks so dismissively about him, I also wondered if Zenos' participation in the Resonant project was voluntary. Does Varis despise Zenos because of what he has done to himself, or did he have so little regard for his son that he had him experimented on and is simply less than happy with the results?

look to ff6 and the difference between kefka and celes, zenos is the prototype and fordola is once theyve 'perfected' the formula

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Originally Posted by Solarra

That got me thinking about Zenos. He has no empathy (as far as I can see), in fact he seems completely unable to feel anything, which led me to wonder if Krile really was the 'template' for him.<...> I also wondered if Zenos' participation in the Resonant project was voluntary. Does Varis despise Zenos because of what he has done to himself, or did he have so little regard for his son that he had him experimented on and is simply less than happy with the results?

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I've been working under the assumption (in a "until we get anything better" kind of way) that these questions loop around and answer themselves.

Fordola isn't naturally callous; she's been deliberately and systematically hardened.

Her father (Ala Mhigan upper class) felt that cooperation with the Empire in the wake of the fall of the mad king was the best path forward for the city, and Ala Mhigans killed him for it. She bought into the idea that her Imperial citizenship, education, and training would help the city stand strong on its own merits and gain (one twisted idea of) freedom. Gaius's worldview fostered this; in addition to being rather black and white on the front of, "You will embrace order or reject it. I will embrace you or kill you for it.", he was also meritocratic. Under his leadership, a Roegadyn had become Tribunus. (And indeed she did rise to Pilus before his fall.)

But by then she's realized that he was in the minority; even the non-Optimates purebloods still had a casual supremacy in treating provincial citizens as if not equal to Garlean citizens until they earned recognition with results, often surpassing results. So she and her friends steeled on. What ever it took, they would follow orders, win battles, and give them no excuse to say, "See, these savages can't stomach their duty." (It all plays into why she fired on the Skulls in the tower, augmented of course by the knowledge that, if she didn't, Zenos would just kill her anyway in addition to giving the supremacists something to sneer at and throw their reputations down from where they'd spent their whole lives clawing up to.)

Then Zenos comes along and twists her and her resentment into another wolf for the hunt just for the sport of it.

But now the Echo is unrelentingly taking a hammer to that shell, and she's breaking.

Zenos, on the other hand, just doesn't feel or care. Even if he was feeling everything from those around him, would it eventually "get to" him? Hell, he might just enjoy it. I think that's what his father saw; his antisocial tendencies (egocentric, self-gratifying, self-directed, lacking empathy/remorse, coercive, controlling, violent, engaging in risks to personal wellbeing and successful completion of duty, boredom-induced impulsivity and disdain for others). He was a "monster", unfit for the throne. (And in that light, yes, I'm pretty sure he volunteered for Aulus's experiements, lol.)

Thanks for the detailed answer.
So in other words, if Zenos can sense how people feel, you think it just adds spice to his actions because he is naturally devoid of remorse or empathy, whereas with Fordola the Echo reconnects her to her humanity and her conscience. Makes sense.

Not all full-blooded Garleans are restricted from using magic/manipulating aether. Some can, but it's uncommon. This was confirmed by the Lore Book. Perhaps those of the Imperial Family can?

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Originally Posted by Solarra

So in other words, if Zenos can sense how people feel, you think it just adds spice to his actions because he is naturally devoid of remorse or empathy, whereas with Fordola the Echo reconnects her to her humanity and her conscience. Makes sense.

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Maybe. Just how I choose to see things until there's more information, lol. There's support for it, but not quite hard conformation.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Not all full-blooded Garleans are restricted from using magic/manipulating aether. Some can, but it's uncommon. This was confirmed by the Lore Book. Perhaps those of the Imperial Family can?

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That's another "make a guess and run with it for now" kind of thing, imho.
Before the lore book, I would have called it hard confirmed. Pureblood Garlean DNA? Do not pass go, do not collect $200, you do not manipulate aether.
Things changed (even if only slightly).

I think we will find out soon enough how and why Garleans cannot manipulate aether. It could be they were mutations of Allags (like how Kuluu were mutations of Zilart, and thus could not use the Whisper of the Soul).

I am leaning towards the former, because the Ixal are created by Allagan technology and they have mages amongst their ranks.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

I think we will find out soon enough how and why Garleans cannot manipulate aether. It could be they were mutations of Allags (like how Kuluu were mutations of Zilart, and thus could not use the Whisper of the Soul).

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This is a very interesting theory and I reckon you might be on to something. If I remember correctly, in FFXI the Kuluu were the "lesser" Zilart who did not posses their (telepthy?) ability and were thus outcasts (more or less).

However, if... and I'm just saying if....if the Garleans were indeed manipulations or "genetically modified clones" by the Allag and were cast out by their makers because they could not manipulate aether... Hmmmm. Would that not make them to just be shallow "husks" or "shells" like Doga and Unei? If I recall, Amon was one of their chief scientists who had a penchant for genetic modifications and I would assume that the peak of his cloning abilities was to clone Doga and Unei who were descendants of Xande. And they were not "complete" because they lacked a certain amount of self will-- I remember the scene where Xande is monologuing with several of the clones assembled at his throne steps and he basically dismisses them as such.

Thus, I reckon the Garleans may indeed be fully natural home-grown races but perhaps something in their environment (or certain meddlings by the Twelve?) forced them to evolve with their third eye; which, gave them spatial recognition abilities as a substitute for manipulating aether. The Encyclopeadia does mention that there are likely a very few of them who may be able to manipulate aether.

Anyway, you still have a very interesting point because the lore books hints that they were indeed cast out... Hmmmm.