24 man raid loot system

You got rid of the greed only rule and we thank you for that. But the 24 man raid loot system still suffers from some really annoying issues that I feel could be easily resolved.

1. People leaving once they get their loot: This is annoying when someone gets their drop from the first boss then leaves the group. This means now someone new is gonna join, possibly someone who you or someone in your party now has to compete with for their drop.

2. Loot distribution timing: If it's getting close to reset and I'm getting to that point where I just want to lot on anything, it's a pain in the ass if the lot I want drops from the final boss... If my lot dropped from the first boss I could say "oh well, no luck, now I'll just lot everything the rest of the run". But if my lot drops from the last boss, my choices are: lot everything and shoot myself when my piece drops from the last boss and I'm locked out. Or pass everything and shoot myself when my piece doesn't drop from the last boss.

But I think these are easily fixed issues and all SE has to do is look at how backwards their design is.

They have those fluff items from the final boss like the minion and music rolls, these are supposed to be the incentive to keep people playing til the final boss. But NO ONE has ever said to themselves "I got my loot, but maybe I'll stay for my chance to lot the triple triad card...".

Instead of having the fluff items drop from the final boss, have them drop from the individual bosses. 1st boss: music roll, 2nd boss: triple triad card, 3rd boss: minion.

Then from the final boss have it drop 2 full sets of gear per alliance. 2 feet, legs, belt, hands, body and head pieces. But the pieces would be for random jobs. E.G. a loot list would look like this:
boots of maiming, boots of fending
trousers of healing, trousers of striking
belt of aiming, belt of casting
gloves of fending, gloves of casting
shirt of healing, shirt of scouting
hat of striking, hat of maiming

This would strike a balance between making people run it multiple times (since their specific piece might not drop first try) and getting SOMETHING before reset (since more gear will drop than there are party members at the end of the run). It would encourage people to stay til the end since the thing that they actually want is there and people who are after a specific loot but don't have time to be picky won't get sophie's choiced since all the loot drops together.

The thing is, you want everyone to play it to the end, so the only logical answer is to have all the loot at the end and not at any of the mid-bosses.

Ideally, the loot system could be improved in a way where the loot rolls can be changed (eg, "I would like this item, but not if this other item drops") based on what order you "need" on them. So you need on the items you want the most, greed on the rest, and the items are doled out in the order of most "needs" , then most "greeds"

Why is this an issue though?
There's already more than enough incentive to not leave the instance before it's done, namely that it will take less time than the 30-minute lockout you get for leaving early, and don't forget the fact that most people running it only do it once a week for the coin and cluster, which you need to stay until the end for.
Secondly it's a 24-man, one person leaving doesn't have THAT much of an impact, even if it sucks. Hell you could say this is a bigger problem for 4-man dungeons, which outside of roulette give you no incentive to stay until the end if you get your loot early AND if one person leaves you lose 1/4th of your team, rather than 1/24th.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

Hell you could say this is a bigger problem for 4-man dungeons

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Dungeons are much faster and simpler to run and aren't gated one item per week. You can theoretically get every drop in the run, whereas in the 24 player raid it's a gamble - do I roll now and lose out on a piece of gear that might not even drop?
There's the matter where if you're running DPS, you have up to 4 other people you can roll against, whereas in a dungeon it's a maximum of one.
Then throw in how even if you think it's only those 4 people, well oh goodie, one of them rolled on loot so it's down to 3, nope, they ran and it's back to four people again because another caster joined.
It's all the more frustrating when you think you're safe because you're the only caster, but then another caster joins and takes your gear from you.
All of these risks exist in dungeon in theory, but they're really not as painful as in a 24 player raid.

Also, between us, when was the last time you saw a loot and scoot in a dungeon?

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

You got rid of the greed only rule and we thank you for that. But the 24 man raid loot system still suffers from some really annoying issues that I feel could be easily resolved.

1. People leaving once they get their loot: This is annoying when someone gets their drop from the first boss then leaves the group. This means now someone new is gonna join, possibly someone who you or someone in your party now has to compete with for their drop.

2. Loot distribution timing: If it's getting close to reset and I'm getting to that point where I just want to lot on anything, it's a pain in the ass if the lot I want drops from the final boss... If my lot dropped from the first boss I could say "oh well, no luck, now I'll just lot everything the rest of the run". But if my lot drops from the last boss, my choices are: lot everything and shoot myself when my piece drops from the last boss and I'm locked out. Or pass everything and shoot myself when my piece doesn't drop from the last boss.

But I think these are easily fixed issues and all SE has to do is look at how backwards their design is.

They have those fluff items from the final boss like the minion and music rolls, these are supposed to be the incentive to keep people playing til the final boss. But NO ONE has ever said to themselves "I got my loot, but maybe I'll stay for my chance to lot the triple triad card...".

Instead of having the fluff items drop from the final boss, have them drop from the individual bosses. 1st boss: music roll, 2nd boss: triple triad card, 3rd boss: minion.

Then from the final boss have it drop 2 full sets of gear per alliance. 2 feet, legs, belt, hands, body and head pieces. But the pieces would be for random jobs. E.G. a loot list would look like this:
boots of maiming, boots of fending
trousers of healing, trousers of striking
belt of aiming, belt of casting
gloves of fending, gloves of casting
shirt of healing, shirt of scouting
hat of striking, hat of maiming

This would strike a balance between making people run it multiple times (since their specific piece might not drop first try) and getting SOMETHING before reset (since more gear will drop than there are party members at the end of the run). It would encourage people to stay til the end since the thing that they actually want is there and people who are after a specific loot but don't have time to be picky won't get sophie's choiced since all the loot drops together.

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Put in 3hr penalty timer to resolve most of this, will only apply if the player leaves after getting a drop. If no drop but he leaves anyway, 1 hour timer.

That would make things fair, but alot of people will complain and say "But but but what if I have an emergency!" or "This wont work cuz of blah blah blah" so, here it comes.

=)

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Originally Posted by Tiaque

Put in 3hr penalty timer to resolve most of this, will only apply if the player leaves after getting a drop. If no drop but he leaves anyway, 1 hour timer.

That would make things fair, but alot of people will complain and say "But but but what if I have an emergency!" or "This wont work cuz of blah blah blah" so, here it comes.

=)

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I'm pretty sure folks would just find a way to "accidentally" shut down their window/app or whatever in order to be offline and than you'd be forced to kick them... they wouldn't get any penalty by getting kicked but our kick timer is time locked once we use it... so if we have to use it way to much in order to keep adjusting things (although sure that's a very unlikely scenario but still) than we could end up being stuck with an offline preson.

There really isn't any way to fix it completely without a real overhaul. People would just in progress fish instead if you weight more loot on the final boss. They already get the tomes if they in progress to the end now they would get even more chances at gear.

Putting a giant penalty wouldn't fix anything it would just make it potentially even more annoying, people will just dc or sit there afk until you kick them. Honestly, them dropping out is preferable since you just get a rep and keep going than getting into a situation where they occupy a slot doing nothing until they are kicked.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

You got rid of the greed only rule and we thank you for that. But the 24 man raid loot system still suffers from some really annoying issues that I feel could be easily resolved.

1. People leaving once they get their loot: This is annoying when someone gets their drop from the first boss then leaves the group. This means now someone new is gonna join, possibly someone who you or someone in your party now has to compete with for their drop.

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No idea on what can be done but I can explain why people will do this and why I will never do a repeat full run for the same week.

If you do it once for the week and get no drop, then doing it again means getting the drop and leaving. There is no incentive to stay, it is boring or frustrating to do to simply spam, depending who you get grouped with. It is mentally exhausting to spend around 30 mins per run carrying healers as a DPS that can raise, so people do not really want to keep doing it and stay. It is not fun, in other words, dealing with the huge skill gap, something SE thought they would change with these meters, and yet had no impact.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

There really isn't any way to fix it completely without a real overhaul. People would just in progress fish instead if you weight more loot on the final boss. They already get the tomes if they in progress to the end now they would get even more chances at gear.

Putting a giant penalty wouldn't fix anything it would just make it potentially even more annoying, people will just dc or sit there afk until you kick them. Honestly, them dropping out is preferable since you just get a rep and keep going than getting into a situation where they occupy a slot doing nothing until they are kicked.

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yeah that is exactly what i was getting at

So basically OP you are complaining that if someone could leave, the replacement could be the same job (or type as you i.e. melee) and that you then have to compete for potential loot? I mean this happens in a ton of dungeons not just 24man, and they have just as much right to roll on that loot considering they did accept to be the replacement.

As for loot distribution, you have two options, either enter with a pre-formed party that way you can allocate stuff however you want, or just ask. Seriously ask your group if they are willing to pass on something you might want, granted it doesn't always work but you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying as most players will be happy to cooperate.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

So basically OP you are complaining that if someone could leave, the replacement could be the same job (or type as you i.e. melee) and that you then have to compete for potential loot? I mean this happens in a ton of dungeons not just 24man, and they have just as much right to roll on that loot considering they did accept to be the replacement.

As for loot distribution, you have two options, either enter with a pre-formed party that way you can allocate stuff however you want, or just ask. Seriously ask your group if they are willing to pass on something you might want, granted it doesn't always work but you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying as most players will be happy to cooperate.

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To your first point, it’s not about the replacement getting loot, it’s about the person leaving. If you leave mid duty why do you deserve any right to loot? That would be like leaving a trial after a phase transition and getting a reward for it. You should only get loot upon completion of the duty. And yes you can absolutely apply the same logic to dungeons, but it’s not as wide spread of an issue with dungeons (I’ve personally never seen a loot and scoot in a dungeon but it happens every week in 24 man raids).

To the second point, I think you misunderstood what they’re saying. If you want, say, the body piece that drops only from yiazmat, you have to pass loot on every boss until the final one or you’re locked out from that loot when you get there. While if someone wants boots that drop from Famfrit and they don’t drop, they can still lot on loot from every boss after Famfrit, just to get something. So the person who wants the body can’t have a chance at any other loot if their thing doesn’t drop, while the person who wants the boots can. Pre-made groups don’t change that.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

People would just in progress fish instead if you weight more loot on the final boss.

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Yeah people used to do this a whole lot back in 2.x, though it seems to be less now. Queuing up for any alliance raid was never a problem of waiting for everyone to ready up, but instead having the window pop then disappear because someone withdrew, then pop, withdrew, pop, withdrew, pop, withdrew, etc. etc. because some lazy idiot wanted to just fight the last boss instead of doing the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

There really isn't any way to fix it completely without a real overhaul. People would just in progress fish instead if you weight more loot on the final boss. They already get the tomes if they in progress to the end now they would get even more chances at gear.

Putting a giant penalty wouldn't fix anything it would just make it potentially even more annoying, people will just dc or sit there afk until you kick them. Honestly, them dropping out is preferable since you just get a rep and keep going than getting into a situation where they occupy a slot doing nothing until they are kicked.

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In progress fishing doesn't really happen anymore, you get the penalty if you withdraw 3 times. And if all the loot was at the end it would deincentivise leaving mid match so there would be less in progress runs to fish for. I don't see this being an issue and you don't really want to discourage people from joining in progress.

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Originally Posted by ValentineSnow

In progress fishing doesn't really happen anymore, you get the penalty if you withdraw 3 times. And if all the loot was at the end it would deincentivise leaving mid match so there would be less in progress runs to fish for. I don't see this being an issue and you don't really want to discourage people from joining in progress.

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It's not an issue now because there is really no reason to do it (btw each slot drops from two bosses right now (legs is from 2 and 4, chest is from 3 and 4, etc, it's spread out in a way to encourage people that are targeting a specific slot to stay), but your proposal increases the amount of gear the final boss drops by 6 times. 12 drops from one boss that can be anything in the instance. That's already two times the amount the other 3 bosses drop put together.

I mean I can either just fish the in progress and kill one boss for 12 chances at a piece of gear or start from the beginning and depending on the slot have 2-4 chances at my gear but have to kill 3 times as many bosses and in between trash.

People also leave for other reasons, like if the party is bad, it took too long due to wipes so they had to leave, they just straight up had to leave etc. not only gear.

Yeah, I get it, people loot and scooting is annoying but there's not much you can do about it with the system as is without introducing other problems unless they change it to personal loot. Really, the weekly lock is to blame.

Why would I stay to the end once I got my loot ? am I your slave now ? ofcourse I'm going to leave and reading posts like yours makes me want to leave even faster.

As with the greed only rule it's clear trying to add in systems to combat the human element does more harm then good and just leads to more frustrations. Remember the set up, its a 24 player raid full of strangers most of the time. Hardly any of us know each other and none of us are more special then the rest.

If someone wants to leave after getting their drop then that's their choice. Personally I would rather have them leave then either DC or afk and hold the slot or force them to do the full run which would leave them miserable, mopey or slack on performance for the rest of the fights because they stopped caring at that point. I'll gladly take someone fresh and willing to do the rest of the raid.

The loot distribution timing is also fine. There's no set rule that states you must lot on all the things just for the sake of getting something and nothing more. It's not the systems fault that players can't prioritize what they want.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

Why would I stay to the end once I got my loot ? am I your slave now ? ofcourse I'm going to leave and reading posts like yours makes me want to leave even faster.

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There were a lot of things I wanted to say in response to this, but I expect they wouldn't have any impact on you because you're the type of person that plays an MMO to do things quickly and never for the fun of playing with others and socializing. I can't really figure out why you'd play games like this at all.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

It's not the systems fault that players can't prioritize what they want.

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It actually is. I have relatively a lot of time to play this game, even with a part time job, and when I want a piece of gear from a 24-player raid, I farm for it. But it doesn't matter because for all my hard work and efforts, the piece I want might just not drop, and if it does, I might lose it to another Needer. So here I am, Monday night, last run I can shove in before reset? Of course I'm going to roll in a panic on anything and everything.
Which is funny, because once the weekly lockout is gone, I care a lot less about going in there and getting drops other than my coin.
Ya, it's my damage. But you can't tell me I'm the only one who feels that sort of nonsense stress from this loot system. Moving away from it to Extreme-esque token system would be better, even if you have to run the place more than once per week to be eligible. Even in-progress fishers would likely realize they're better off completing the raid this 5 or so times a week instead of trying to get the one item they want to drop and then eat the penalty when it doesn't. And if the piece of gear they actually wanted dropped in the meanwhile and they got it? All the better.

Thing I hate about loot in 24-man raid is...I have yet to get that Striking Gloves to complete the set. Ever since Ridorana is available, I still have yet to see that accursed gloves ever appear in the chests.

The OP's solution seems overly convoluted. Why not just add a token system, instead? Each run gives you a token. Exchanging a certain number of tokens will allow you to obtain a piece of gear of your choice. You may only purchase one piece of gear per week, and doing so uses up your one drop per week limit (similarly, getting a drop from a run disables your ability to purchase for the week). By putting the token at the end of the run, folks will be incentivized to stay for the whole run, even if they get a drop (they can apply the token toward another piece of gear next week). At the same time, it puts a limit on the number of times you need to run to ensure you get a piece of gear.

The worst I can see from this is that folks might stockpile tokens; run the raid sixty times in one week, for instance, and then just buy a piece of gear each week for the next several without setting foot in the raid again. I don't think this would be common behavior, however.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The worst I can see from this is that folks might stockpile tokens; run the raid sixty times in one week, for instance, and then just buy a piece of gear each week for the next several without setting foot in the raid again. I don't think this would be common behavior, however.

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We had people who farmed everything possible from Eureka within, what, a week? I think that's exactly why they won't do it. Limit the amount of tokens you can get weekly. But it'll still be much better than the current situation.