What if jobs and classes had specializations

as an example...

Ninja equipping a parrying blade in off hand to be able to tank role like in FFXI

Dark knight using Scythes for DPS role like in FFXI

Paladin Dual wield for dps role

Bard healer ?

But jobs are specializations of classes. And role changing because of an item equip is just... I don't see it working well with how the game is designed.

That's not a 'specialization', that's just an alternate weapon type, which is not what the Armoury System allows (unlike FFXI where weapon and Job were separate, here your weapon is your class/Job). Thus why a new weapon type added to the game will inevitably mean a new class or Job specifically for that weapon, the weapon is simply not added to an existing one (this is also why class and even some Job icons depict weapons, it's telling you there and then what weapon is associated with that class or Job).

Also, NIN was never meant to be a tank in FFXI (this is straight from the development team) - it was meant to be a fast-attacking debuff/DPS, until lazy players turned it into a tank by exploiting Utsusemi's Blink mechanic, and then complained when they inevitably were torn apart by enemies that ate through their shadows at once (being actually DPS they had all the defense of a wet paper bag). I'm glad FFXIV does not have any of that nonsense here.

And scythes are a tool for BTN like they should be - the only time here in FFXIV you'll see a scythe used as a weapon is that glamour weapon of Edda's offered on the Mogstation for certain classes - DRK is all about using a great sword (which is pretty telling that a great scythe will not be a future separate class or Job).

So I do not see SE changing this I'm afraid.

I like the idea of Advanced Jobs. Like a WAR could have a tank ADV job and a DPS ADV job. Tank would be Berserker and DPS would be Vyking. That sorta thing. But That would be a huge undertaking, especially if you did them all at once.

the problem with that is instantly you double the amount of jobs to balance sine you will have to properly balance tanks being dps, some dps being tanks and other healers and such, i dont see it without generating a lot of imbalance issues.

I dont know how that system worked in FFXI but I dont see it working here - and while I kinda hate to do this, I also feel the need somehow to point out something with threads like this that are clearly referencing FFXI: This is a differnt game. FFXIV works differently in an aweful lot of ways, so what worked their doesnt really work here.

In this case: Look how much of a hazzle it is with SMN and Scholar sharing the same base-class already. Altering the arcanist-skills is a balancing nightmare! And before they did away with our bonus-stats it was extremly annoying for people who were optimizig both jobs to actually do that, because those points were class-based, not job-based.

It would probably be a lot easier to release a ninja-like tank-class or a double-sword-dps than alter ninja and paladin.
To actually change what the classes are doing, a lot more than just switching out the weapon would be required.
A tank-ninja would need to gain more than just parry - he'd be mostly in need of skills that are generating aggro.
A paladin-dps wouldnt need only a second sword for looks but also an increase in skill-potency and the loss of aggro-generating abilities, not to mention some sort of replacment for all the now useless tank-cooldowns.
How does a bard healer work? Bards have zero skills to heal partymembers - they would need a whole new toolkit to fullfill that role, not only a harp instead of a bow.

And if you have to rework 50% (or more) of a job to make it work in a different role, arent you better off at that point creating a new, more original job from scratch?

I call "not thought through FFXI nostalgia" on this... which makes this a bad idea, sorry.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I like the idea of Advanced Jobs.

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We already have Advanced Jobs, they are jobs without classes, so DRK, AST, MCH, SAM and RDM are our Advanced Jobs.

I like the idea on paper, but SE has a hard time balancing the what we already have, if they added one more role to each job that would make it even harder for them to balance game. On a side note a lot of people really did not like the idea of Ninja tank in FFXI, when I use to play FFXI I never really noticed the hate was the hate most from an end game PoV? I never really dove much into endgame in FFXI. Reason I ask was because my main was Nin and evasion tanking was one of my better mmo experiences in terms of enjoyment, and I do not recall ever getting much flank for it at the time.

I don't see much of a point in adding specializations to something that is already pretty much a specialization.
Specs are usually used as a way to diversify whatever class was chosen in the beginning by adding different playstyles to it. Most games also allow to switch between spec to further that diversification.
This process is entirely unnecessary in this game, as you can freely switch between any jobs (or specs), regardless of what was chosen in the beginning. Any further specialization would be merely for flavour, and at that point, wouldn't it be more 'flavourful' to make a completely new job instead of something that merely bounces off of a job that already exists?

I see it this way: Rather then picking a class in the beginning and later on a spec, you skip the class and go right to choosing your spec.
Or: Every character basically shares the same, unseen, base class, with currently 26 specs to choose and freely switch between.
I know we technically do have classes but since they directly evolve into their jobs without a significant change in playstyle they are not really worth mentioning. The only class that does split into 2 different Jobs or 'specs' would be arcanist, and I'm pretty sure the devs are on record saying they don't really like that and would sooner split the completely then do it again.

Tl;dr: Jobs already are pretty much specs and adding specs to specs is unnecessary and convoluted, imo. (I hope people understand what I'm trying to say, I can't seem to english today :/ )

I really wish they'd have made more classes branch like Arc, but instead of (for some reason) letting you lvl both from just playing one they had that stop at lvl 50. Slightly different weapons from the base class and both jobs would have the same basics but much different ways of using them. But they don't like the 2 for 1 (and classes in general) so it's all about totally new weapons for new jobs.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Also, NIN was never meant to be a tank in FFXI (this is straight from the development team) - it was meant to be a fast-attacking debuff/DPS, until lazy players turned it into a tank by exploiting Utsusemi's Blink mechanic, and then complained when they inevitably were torn apart by enemies that ate through their shadows at once (being actually DPS they had all the defense of a wet paper bag). I'm glad FFXIV does not have any of that nonsense here.

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So, this is about lazy players and not a good thing that the game doesn't fit you into whatever the game wants you in. Makes sense with that last sentence, you're glad FFXIV doesn't have it because you enjoy being shoehorned and not able to step outside the box, but damn it FFXI sure was open, whether you like it or not. It was actually clever of the playerbase to calculate the huge amount of volatile enmity a ninjutsu gave, and risk tanking with just Utsusemi and evasion. It was a high risk, high reward kind of tanking.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I dont know how that system worked in FFXI but I dont see it working here - and while I kinda hate to do this, I also feel the need somehow to point out something with threads like this that are clearly referencing FFXI: This is a differnt game. FFXIV works differently in an aweful lot of ways, so what worked their doesnt really work here.

In this case: Look how much of a hazzle it is with SMN and Scholar sharing the same base-class already. Altering the arcanist-skills is a balancing nightmare! And before they did away with our bonus-stats it was extremly annoying for people who were optimizig both jobs to actually do that, because those points were class-based, not job-based.

It would probably be a lot easier to release a ninja-like tank-class or a double-sword-dps than alter ninja and paladin.
To actually change what the classes are doing, a lot more than just switching out the weapon would be required.
A tank-ninja would need to gain more than just parry - he'd be mostly in need of skills that are generating aggro.
A paladin-dps wouldnt need only a second sword for looks but also an increase in skill-potency and the loss of aggro-generating abilities, not to mention some sort of replacment for all the now useless tank-cooldowns.
How does a bard healer work? Bards have zero skills to heal partymembers - they would need a whole new toolkit to fullfill that role, not only a harp instead of a bow.

And if you have to rework 50% (or more) of a job to make it work in a different role, arent you better off at that point creating a new, more original job from scratch?

I call "not thought through FFXI nostalgia" on this... which makes this a bad idea, sorry.

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FFXI had nothing of the sort, so you made that up. Whether you could tank or not was mostly dependant on how the job was built and especially your subjob, nothing to do with the weapons.

To understand just how opposed to this SE is, they're not just saying "no" to making the job system more complicated, but they'll be making it simpler by ultimately removing base classes.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

FFXI had nothing of the sort, so you made that up. Whether you could tank or not was mostly dependant on how the job was built and especially your subjob, nothing to do with the weapons.

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...I made that up?
Have you read the OP?
And wether or not it worked liked that or not in FFXI is irrelevant after all - it wont work in FFXIV which was my mainpoint anyways. The OP just read to me as if the idea stemmed from FFXI-nostalgia, with basically comparing the proposed system to that game like 3 times in 4 lines...

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Snip

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Made that up in the sense that FFXI hadn't a predetermined role per job, let alone one assigned to a weapon.
OP isn't referring to any mechanic that existed in FFXI, just that NIN could tank, and DRK definitely isn't one unlike in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Berlios

as an example...

Ninja equipping a parrying blade in off hand to be able to tank role like in FFXI

Dark knight using Scythes for DPS role like in FFXI

Paladin Dual wield for dps role

Bard healer ?

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Everyone is telling you it can't happen and why in explicit detail.
I say be all you can be! dream little flower! dream!
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