Squishy tanks... is it me or them?

I'm a newly minted level 70 WHM, with a level 60 SCH and level 31 AST. I like my healers. I think I'm okay at playing WHM. But one thing I've noticed lately is I don't see a lot of middle ground with tanks. Either they're fine and I can throw a regen on them then holy spam to my hearts content, or they get half their health knocked off before my current cast completes, and I struggle to keep them up.

I am leveling DRK, but I'm pretty ignorant about tanking, and I'm not sure if I'm dealing with bad tanks or if it's me that's bad.

Any ideas on how I can better manage situations like this? I feel like it's my responsibility to keep the party alive, so I'm open to anything.

It's great that you're leveling a tank too. Def helps to see what you can do better when you play both sides.

A good idea would be to learn the tank cool down icons (buffs to circumvent damage) and watch their buffs in a dungeon to see if they're using them. Some tanks ignore them completely or save them for bosses only, which a lot of cooldowns get more use in in trash packs.

Another good idea is to check their gear. Just right click and examine them and do a quick glance. If they're using cooldowns properly/gear is up to date, it's also possible their gear is broken (don't think it shows up for anyone but them tho).

There are basically a few types of tanks:
- Those who understand that maxing packs comes from freeing healer dps uptime. They'll dps as much as they can while using defensive skills (cooldowns on trash, stunning some hard hitting mobs, trade some dps to use rotations that regen hp, etc..). Some take this too far an heal themselves, looking at you paladins (and some red mages). These same tanks usually do bosses in dps stance and switch the burden back onto you.
- Those who just try to dps through everything. Will use defensive cooldowns but that's about it.
- All the others, from clueless people to those who would rather keep their CDs for "oh shit" moments.

You'll get a feel for which is which pretty quickly. From there it depends a lot on classes as well.

PLD can take quite a beating even under-geared if they use their cooldowns and stuns properly. If they use HG on cooldown on trash packs you're golden, take good care of them on bosses.
WAR and DRK will make great use of DB and stuns (holy) to regen their HP.
And probably more I'm forgetting.

I've been a DPS since v1 of the game. I'm mostly PLD now but it's pretty recent. So I'm not the best tank, I think I'm average. But I'm playing the tank role to play it like a tank, not to play like a DPS. I keep my aggro and all. I'm not here to do damage. I sometimes do on some occasions. I remember for example when I was leveling in The Vault, the final boss has a phase with flames. So here I knew I couldnt take damage so I was switching DPS stance to help and when the last flame was dead, I switched back to the DEF stance. But if I know I will not be at ease with the switch in a given situation, I wont do it.

I'm a PLD for info and that's right that when I was leveling and sometimes under-geared, it could be hard for my healer friend to keep me up even though I was using my cooldowns and all.

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Originally Posted by itsokimbatman

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It sounds to me like you have the right attitude and mindset about healing so I'm thinking that you aren't the issue at all. I main as AST but decided to level PLD for the experience and seeing things from that perspective has been invaluable. You really need to learn how to effectively manage your skills as a tank in order to be successful and I also feel like some people may feel pressured to DPS as a tank. DPS stance makes for a squishy tank.

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Originally Posted by itsokimbatman

Either they're fine and I can throw a regen on them then holy spam to my hearts content, or they get half their health knocked off before my current cast completes, and I struggle to keep them up.

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Usual first thing I say in these kind of situations is check gear -- both your own, and your tanks. But if you're encountering the former situation, my first thought is the problem isn't you. This can particularly be a problem levelling SCH, since it doesn't have a cure 2/benefic 2 it can just sit there and spam.

Anyways, it's probably gear (pre 50 tanks can even wear DPS gear), perhaps combined with an uncaring attitude towards CDs. If you want to examine more carefully the reasons behind deaths, you can upload logs to FFlogs, and examine the healing and incoming damage leading up to a death. What CDs were used, if any, etc. Although I believe they only support max level dungeons.

Keep playing your DRK and you will get more insight into what's going on with tanks while they're tanking. I bring this up first and foremost so you can eliminate any doubt on your part if you are the problem, as you will be able to gauge how much experience your tank has tanking. There is also no shame in telling your tank to ease up a bit if they are taking too much damage. If they decide to be jerks about it, you can leave any group that makes you uncomfortable.

There can be a lot of reasons for a tank being squishy. Bad/broken gear, over-confident and tries to take on large pulls out of tank stance, has no idea mitigative CDs exist or doesn't know how to rotate them properly, stands in AoE. The list goes on. What it always comes down to is they are simply taking on more than they should, which might even be the dungeon he/she is in with you. If the tank's HP drops too quickly, and the mobs are dying slowly, the pull is too strong for your group.

The issue is you keep getting inexperienced tanks, and likely a mix of low DPS due to under-geared DPS players and also no DPS contributions on your part because of the need for constant healing. An experienced tank will gauge the strength of the party. Some are more careful and will do a small pull first. Others are reckless and will pull everything at the start and simply see how everyone does and adjust accordingly. This tank usually checks everyone's gear prior to doing so, so he's not totally reckless :p

As you say, sometimes we get the ones who can pull huge while giving us ample windows to DPS, others require much more intensive healing on our part. I do sympathize with you, but it is also something that us healers have to adjust to. It is a lot of fun to weave in DPS skills, but we're healers first. Always.

A lot of it definitely depends on the healer & tank's gear, and how well the tank is using cooldowns, and knowing when to switch back to tank stance. If one or the other is undergeared enough, it can be hard to keep the tank alive, even on single-pack pulls. Many of the tanks I see will stay in DPS stance even when things start going downhill, which makes matters worse.

I make it a habit to check gear on the other party members at the start of a dungeon. If I see an undergeared tank I'll usually save stuff like Presence of Mind for the inevitable Cure II spam, otherwise I'll try and push DPS as much as possible, especially if there's an undergeared DPS or two that would cause the tank to run out of cooldowns.

On the tank side, while leveling PLD through Heavensward dungeons, I could always tell when I was even slightly undergeared, because the damage ramped up enough to notice it. During SB dungeons I was mostly using gear from the dungeon I was in once I hit Bardam's. I had most of it already from runs while on WHM. I find I have to switch back to Shield Oath and use Clemency more frequently in SB where in HW the damage going out was fairly low even in Sword Oath as long as I was properly geared (with The Vault being the single exception, that place sucks). I do try to put out decent DPS when I can though I'm not the type to do trash packs in DPS stance, unless its a single mob that I know isn't going to cause problems.

I feel like it doesn't help that there's a buff cap on the party list of ... what is it, four? and that's almost always taken up by protect. Then you've got maybe adlo, medica II... blocks you from seeing the tank's de/buffs, which are an important gauge of how much damage you can expect.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I feel like it doesn't help that there's a buff cap on the party list of ... what is it, four? and that's almost always taken up by protect. Then you've got maybe adlo, medica II... blocks you from seeing the tank's de/buffs, which are an important gauge of how much damage you can expect.

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If you have the tank selected then you should be able to see buffs/debuffs he has on himself. But yes, the limit on the party list makes it hard to spot them there.

Even if a tank isn't popping CDs constantly, they shouldn't be that squishy, especially not in leveling dungeons. Leveling dungeons are designed to be run even if you're a bit under-geared, you should still be fine for the most part, except for a few outliers (Bardam's Mettle for one, some of the enemies in there hit extraordinarily hard and it catches newbie tanks and healers off-guard).

I wouldn't blame this on CDs unless they are recklessly pulling multiple packs and THEN not using CDs.

It usually falls to one of the following:

1). Poor Gear Choices: They might be using DPS accessories and their mitigation stats are terrible.

2). No Tank Stance: Tanks love going DPS on huge packs, dunno why, because when you throw DPS stance on and proceed to pull 20 mobs you're going to die unless you've got insane gear and/or you're going to lose threat to the DPS that are AoEing like crazy, OR you are going to gobble up all the healer's GCD/Casts just to keep you alive. Dunno how many times as RDM, I see a tank pull, use an AoE and my second Scatter makes me the new tank. That Should. Not. Be. Happening. I look up and oh. He's got his DPS stance on. Lovely. I, as the DPS, have to stop my DPS so I don't die so that he can do more DPS. Riiight. That, and sometimes, for the first couple pulls even I myself forget to turn Stance on at all. I wish Duty Finder would stop cancelling all of my stances and buffs. The ONLY time that should happen, is if I go into a lower level dungeon, like Sastasha or something that my level is too low for my stance. That, or give stances from the get-go so we can stop cancelling stances every. freaking. time. I enter the dungeon.

3). Just undergeared in general: If a tank's HP is barely above your own, he's probably at minimum I-level for the dungeon. A tank can do a dungeon like this, but he needs to single-pull and you need to pay more attention than usual.

When you get abit of experience with tanks you can tell their iLvl based off their HP, usually it will be the lower iLvl tank that are squishy due to gear/experience.

Theres a lot of variables others have already listed but it might also just be bad wars

Thing about war is their tank stance doesn't give defense just more health and healing recieved
Its up to them to properly mitigate and if their gear sucks it can be a nightmare even if theyre doing things right

Darks are also quite limited
Only having shadow wall and rampart(?) For trash pulls untill 70

Aaaand you might also just be worse with x healing class
Im a terrible sch and good whm
Just a possibility
If you think thats the case plenty of good threads to help you improve
Buuuut its probably baby wars

Everyone wants to jump on the "op" tank but if theyre coming off pld where they CAN getting away with ignoring cds itll be jarring

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I feel like it doesn't help that there's a buff cap on the party list of ... what is it, four? and that's almost always taken up by protect. Then you've got maybe adlo, medica II... blocks you from seeing the tank's de/buffs, which are an important gauge of how much damage you can expect.

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You can actually increase this cap in your options, from 5 up to 10 buffs/debuffs. If you focus target the tank, you have an even easier time to see all buffs/debuffs on them (with duration), while you DPS the boss/mobs.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

- [...] Some take this too far an heal themselves, looking at you paladins (and some red mages). These same tanks usually do bosses in dps stance and switch the burden back onto you.

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I acutally don't mind that PLD heal themselves if that means I can DPS more as healer. Esp. in big pulls, healer AoE DPS is higher than that of a tank and depending on how many enemies there are, and how long it takes to beat those, you don't have enough oGCDs+regen to keep your tank alive. If the tanks sacrifices some of their lower DPS to keep up healer DPS, I am pretty okay with that. (But damn you RDM spaming Vercure on the tank with excog applied.)
So, I wouldn't count them all to the kind of tanks that don't know how to tank in DPS stance.

b@Topic:
There are certain factors that define the "squishiness" of a tank.
1. The gear: While in HW and SB tanks can't equip any "Disciple of war" gear anymore, below level 50 they still can. I think that is the biggest factor, because even lower item-level tank gear is sometimes stronger in defense (esp. magic defense) than "Disciple of war" gear.
Personally, I think it's easier to heal a tank with high defense and low HP than a tank with low defense and high HP.
Overwise the higher the item level the better (and of course HQ gear).
2. The skill: If you get an experienced tank, who actually rotates through their CDs instead of using all the same time or none, gear becomes a minor factor. Even an undergeared, yet experienced tank will be easier to heal.
They dodge AoE, know fight mechanics and act accordingly, pay attention to the party, and use CDs at crucial times.
Sometimes you wouldn't even notice that they switch to DPS stance at boss fights.
3. The DPS of the party: This is actually the hardest to tell at the first glance. Your tank checks every gear, sees that they are well-equiped, and does a big pull. But somehow the mobs don't die, your oGCDs already used, the tank is running out of CDs and taking serious damage. Sooner or later even your strongest single target heals can't keep up with this many mobs. In this case neither the healer nor the tank were bad/squishy, it's the DPS not doing the damage they should. Mobs might get buffs the longer they live, there are mechanics that can hurt the tank (like final sting). If your DPS doesn't know what they gotta do, even a great tank/healer combo can shatter.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

If you focus target the tank, you have an even easier time to see all buffs/debuffs on them (with duration), while you DPS the boss/mobs.

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I tend to focus target the boss, so it doesn't blindside me if he starts winding up a big aoe/tankbuster while I'm specifically healing someone.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I tend to focus target the boss, so it doesn't blindside me if he starts winding up a big aoe/tankbuster while I'm specifically healing someone.

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You can see the cast bar in enmity list now :)
Just move it somewhere where you can see it. It is very useful to see the cast of multiple targets.

You will see a lot of variation in survivability depending on what dungeon you play. 50/60 dungeons don't really have an appropriate gear sync so you can pull huge amounts of enemies without taking much damage if overgeared, but Leveling dungeons with a tight sync can wreck people if they pull a lot. As you put in more hours of time you'll come to recognise which sections of which dungeons need more intensive healing or mitigation and better prepare your cooldowns and pacing. Bit more refined every day you practice.

Speaking from the tank role, it's most likely one of two things.

A) Your tank is undergeared: This is a problem I face on my DRK, even at lower level dungeons. I saw this yesterday in Sunken Temple of Qarn, my health would drop to about 1/2 (even with grit on) without any time for me or the healer to react. I attribute this to my gear because I'm running a lvl 35 dungeon with 31-33 lvl gear mostly. As a WAR I don't really have this problem as much, and even if I do it's far less a concern because of my high health count anyway.

B) Your tank is trying to overdue it with DPS/pulling: Some tanks will try to pull up to three groups at a time. This is more common at higher level dungeons. Generally groups expect the healer to be able to hold them up through stuff like this, though they should be throwing out a cool down when they pull most of the room.

P.S. As a sidenote I love your attitude about healing and trying to learn the role to better support it.

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Originally Posted by itsokimbatman

I'm a newly minted level 70 WHM, with a level 60 SCH and level 31 AST. I like my healers. I think I'm okay at playing WHM. But one thing I've noticed lately is I don't see a lot of middle ground with tanks. Either they're fine and I can throw a regen on them then holy spam to my hearts content, or they get half their health knocked off before my current cast completes, and I struggle to keep them up.

I am leveling DRK, but I'm pretty ignorant about tanking, and I'm not sure if I'm dealing with bad tanks or if it's me that's bad.

Any ideas on how I can better manage situations like this? I feel like it's my responsibility to keep the party alive, so I'm open to anything.

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I've been a WHM for a while (currently on long break from healing) and had the same problem with SB dungeons. I hesitate to level a tank, though, I never remember enough details from all the dozens of fights to be in charge of turning bosses and I get lost easily in dungeons. Good for you for trying the tanking path :)

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Originally Posted by Yhual

It's great that you're leveling a tank too. Def helps to see what you can do better when you play both sides.

A good idea would be to learn the tank cool down icons (buffs to circumvent damage) and watch their buffs in a dungeon to see if they're using them. Some tanks ignore them completely or save them for bosses only, which a lot of cooldowns get more use in in trash packs.

Another good idea is to check their gear. Just right click and examine them and do a quick glance. If they're using cooldowns properly/gear is up to date, it's also possible their gear is broken (don't think it shows up for anyone but them tho).

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Good advice. I've thought about learning the icons myself, and tank gear can be a big issue. (Personally I'm not sure I would know enough about dungeon gear requirements for a quick check to help. Would have to go look it and the dungeon up later.) But if the OP knows the expected i-levels of dungeons that would help along with cool-down use to know if the tank is making it harder.