WHM and Aggro

So I've been thinking..as a WHM main, how can we deal with this aggro issue we've got?

When we look at AST, they naturally have much, much less; and SCH is split between them and The Faerie (though...there's always that one moment where a boss goes after Eos/Selene and they get wrecked.)



So what's one of the biggest issues with WHM? (i'm not getting into pDPS/rDPS, that's for another...what? 4...5 threads here?)

Obviously it's the HoTs. I'm not suggesting something crazy. maybe dropping the Aggro generation to 60-75% of where it currently is. We all know that Tanks drop tank stance and start doing the DPS over Enmity combos.

it's a small adjustment in the back end that would make it less likely to deal with bosses going "Oh, Hai. I see you have medica 2/regen up....*HUG of death*"

Don't say "But Lucid!" I know Lucid Exists. I use it on CD a lot in EX primals and other content, but...the point is...HoTs generate a lot of aggro, both at cast (Medica 1/2) and well, over time. I've said my gripe with a lot of things on other threads that are around...

I mean, they could...I don't know...Tie Ye Old Salt Lilies to this? it'd not be much of an improvement on the thing, but...plausible? 1 Lily 5% enmity Reduction, 2 10%, 3 15%? numbers could be fudged a bit...but i'm sure that would be a step in...making things a wee bit better in the Aggro area for WHM.

Yes, I'm aware this would screw with the CD buff that the Lilies give, but...I truly never count on that for things that I could use it for; I should, but I don't actually do Savage content (I did do a9-12, but my static fell apart) and mostly EX Primals, where the PF/DF is..."fun" with thanks and aggro.

Whilst there's no denying WHM's agro is quite handily worse than the other 2 healers, if you're pulling agro with any real frequency outside of Savage then I suspect it's more a case of either you or the tank are doing something fundamentally wrong.

I've got 34 Tsu kills now, all but one are from PF randoms, first clears and traps that I've been farming for creation and comedy.

In that entire time I've had 1 single group where my agro was cutting it fine in the first phase and I did actually eat an auto attack at one stage. In every other case, no problems, I just shroud at the first Nightfall in phase 1 and keep it on cooldown from there (It comes back 30 seconds or so before phase 3 so I don't have hate there either).

As for what SE could do about this, personally I just think a flat agro reduction for WHM across the board is the best approach. Keep it simple rather than having an outlier ability that's still going to spike our agro when the tanks least expect it.

I've mentioned it in my own thread about this issue, but plenary stacks/lilies reducing enmity while they're up would be nice without simply reducing our enmity across the board (SE doesn't like doing simple stuff like this for whatever reason, even though AST got it but eh).

It's only really noticable in fights like God Kefka, but when it happens it really sucks. I pulled aggro a few times in Tsukuyomi too with nothing but an Assize, Asylum and a single Medica II for that first phase.
I mean, I just don't think a healer should be drawing this much aggro at all. We already offer the least to our party in utility, personal DPS and raid DPS. The least we can do is not be a possible detriment to them when heavy healing is needed. Even if we don't pull aggro, it may require your tank to do more aggro combos, and you know he's silently cursing you out for it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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I’m all for an overall Cut in WHM aggro. I don’t often pull off tanks, normally when they’re DPSing and heavy AOE DMG comes out. I’m looking at more of a preventative.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

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I have to agree, it was just something on my mind. I do my best to not pull aggro on the whole...but I do tend to rid the tank's butt, hit Lucid and then because AOE DMG...

Yeah, that's the worst. I don't WANT This dependent on lilies...but...I figure if we're stuck with them...maybe add something extra to them?

You're not always responsible for your aggro unfortunately.

If your co-healer decides that no matter what, hp bar should be full everytime they dropped and don't let your medica II ticking, you'll inevitabely generate overheal.
Also, some tanks aren't generating enough aggro, trying to mimic more experience players but forget that this is possible thanks to voke+shirk between tanks and ninja's Silhouette and so yell on WHM generating too much while they didn't do their job correctly.

WHM "aggro problem" isn't only on his part.
Healing too much might be a reason, but tanks forgetting how to have a solid aggro managment also exists.

I only had this problem one or two times to be honest, tanks yelling at me "LUCID LUCID" while I used it on CD, but he didn't generate a lot since even some dps were taking the boss...
That can't help if others aren't willing to do efforts.
If I see my aggro is increasing too fast, I try to see what my co-healer does and ajusts to maybe heal less or rely more on my oGCD and put medica II only when really needeed.

you're right, we're not fully responsible, but when the other two healing classes have built in aggro management AND lucid, it feels a bit stilted.

There've been fights where I didn't use Medica 2 because when I did because of raid AOE (while in voice chat with the entire group, when Byakko first came out) and Kitty turned on me like I had the world's biggest catnip stash.

I've gotten chewed out for not using it and for using it both. I'm unsure if SCH/AST is getting this (doubt it, unless Eos has ripped hate...then watch the train wreck and we all know it was the Tank's fault XD) but I know as a WHM it's "you're overhealing" or "NOT HEALING ENOUGH" because we have to walk that thin line of Aggro management and pray the other members of the party do their own part (...I have little faith of them ever doing so)

By the way, one small note about Astrologian's aggro :

Back in Heavensward, Ast had aggro issues. His MP regen, Luminiferous Aether, was reducing aggro generated under its effects only, every 2min.
To fix that, they added an aggro reduction directly on their sect.

But now, in Stormblood, they all have Lucid Dreaming, which is the old Shroud of Saint that halves enmity already generated.
That and the passive reduction, that's why Ast is in this position, they didn't change anything.

Not resolving Whm problem i know, but that wasn't something they wanted to give to Ast and not Whm.

Speaking of the previous AST enmity issues, doesn't it just seem flat out strange that AST gets it's enmity issues fixed ASAP, and WHM has to just deal with theirs?
I just don't get this unfair treatment WHM always seems to be on the receiving end of.

As I mentioned in another thread, Earthly Star's healing counting as a pet also plays a big factor in this. It's a pretty significant head start over WHM for the inevitable opening AoE most 8 man bosses tend to have.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I've got 34 Tsu kills now, all but one are from PF randoms, first clears and traps that I've been farming for creation and comedy.

In that entire time I've had 1 single group where my agro was cutting it fine in the first phase and I did actually eat an auto attack at one stage. In every other case, no problems, I just shroud at the first Nightfall in phase 1 and keep it on cooldown from there (It comes back 30 seconds or so before phase 3 so I don't have hate there either).

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Really depends on the tank. I've had a single medica 2* pull aggro. Not at the start of the fight; not until a raid hit actually goes out

Yeah, you can say "so yell at the tank then", but the other two healers don't have this problem, and don't require special consideration from a tank trying to optimize.

(*But to be fair, I also DPS quite a bit so that's also generating aggro)

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Speaking of the previous AST enmity issues, doesn't it just seem flat out strange that AST gets it's enmity issues fixed ASAP, and WHM has to just deal with theirs?
I just don't get this unfair treatment WHM always seems to be on the receiving end of.

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I would hardly say AST's enmity issues were fixed "ASAP". As far as I'm aware, nothing changed until Stormblood when they took LA away and gave us all Shroud instead, which works differently than LA. This particularly isn't a case of SE favoring AST over WHM which every WHM seems to be terrified of.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I would hardly say AST's enmity issues were fixed "ASAP". As far as I'm aware, nothing changed until Stormblood when they took LA away and gave us all Shroud instead, which works differently than LA. This particularly isn't a case of SE favoring AST over WHM which every WHM seems to be terrified of.

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There was an enmity fix prior to this, in patch 3.2 - when the sects gained the passive enmity reduction.

This was in response to many ASTs complaining that they had no way to contain their enmity after the 3.07 buff to their core kit. Because AST had no enmity dump at the time they had no way to control their enmity to the extent that WHM could in the same role.

I'm not sure if I would personally count it as a "fast response" since 3.07 dropped on August 25th, 2015 while 3.2 was launched on February 22nd, 2016 - about a half year between the initial potency buff and the subsequent change, but it did occur.

Ah, thanks, I have a hard time keeping information sorted after like...6 months pass. Yeah, that's definitely not some kind of immediate response.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Ah, thanks, I have a hard time keeping information sorted after like...6 months pass. Yeah, that's definitely not some kind of immediate response.

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I have a habit of exaggerating a lot, but so far, it was a faster response than what WHMs have gotten.
Granted, while the actual issue of enmity has been present for quite some time, people haven't been talking about it until just God Kefka, and even then it's a small minority that's bringing it up.

Well, because outside of O4S and O8S currently, that's not that much a problem to be honest.

Once you find your habits on what heals should be for what moment, it becomes easier.
Lucid usage as well.