Queling Strike and Spells!

Does it work with offinsive spells?

Um... Quelling Strike is an archer ability that gives you more TP on your next auto-shot or WS. It doesn't work on spells. Only works on physical attacks.

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Um... Quelling Strike is an archer ability that gives you more TP on your next auto-shot or WS. It doesn't work on spells. Only works on physical attacks.

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Actually this isn't true. You will get TP if you buff Quelling Strike before using an offensive spell (this doesn't apply for any self-buffs but does work for stuff like Thunder or Fire spells).

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Originally Posted by Laela

Actually this isn't true. You will get TP if you buff Quelling Strike before using an offensive spell (this doesn't apply for any self-buffs but does work for stuff like Thunder or Fire spells).

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Since when? That's never worked on my THM. And not to sound mean but... What do you need this for anyways lol? THM's and CNJ's don't have weaponskills anymore.

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Since when? That's never worked on my THM. And not to sound mean but... What do you need this for anyways lol? THM's and CNJ's don't have weaponskills anymore.

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Unless it says it doesn't stack with a spell it's fair to assume it does stack with a spell. I've used it to lower the amount of enmity I generate with a nuke which is the 2nd perk to it.

I use Quelling Strike as THM on Ifrit all the time. I haven't done testing to measure the emnity reduction effect, but you do get 300 TP. It's actually on my top bar next to Excruciate and Parsimony.

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Since when? That's never worked on my THM. And not to sound mean but... What do you need this for anyways lol? THM's and CNJ's don't have weaponskills anymore.

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second wind is usually what i use my tp for, but i usually use it for the emnity down

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Since when? That's never worked on my THM. And not to sound mean but... What do you need this for anyways lol? THM's and CNJ's don't have weaponskills anymore.

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Possibly enmity down but definitely TP for Second Wind, freeing up MP for more important activities.

-150 damage equivalent worth of enmity when used with a spell. Static regardless of damage as long as you produce at least 150 damage. Works on spells and non-autoattack melee attacks. Actual 'use' of the quelling strike buff produces 19 enmity so you get a net -131 effect per use.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

-150 damage equivalent worth of enmity when used with a spell. Static regardless of damage as long as you produce at least 150 damage. Works on spells and non-autoattack melee attacks. Actual 'use' of the quelling strike buff produces 19 enmity so you get a net -131 effect per use.

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Legit. Quoted in the guide.

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Um... Quelling Strike is an archer ability that gives you more TP on your next auto-shot or WS. It doesn't work on spells. Only works on physical attacks.

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NO. Quelling Strike specifically states it does NOT work on auto-attacks:

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Reduces enmity and increases TP generated by next attack. Does not affect auto-attacks.

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It also does not include wording stating it does not work on attack spells, wording that IS included in other abilities. It should work with spells.

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Since when? That's never worked on my THM. And not to sound mean but... What do you need this for anyways lol? THM's and CNJ's don't have weaponskills anymore.

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You don't use Second Wind? You fail as a mage.

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Originally Posted by Fira_Bug

Since when? That's never worked on my THM. And not to sound mean but... What do you need this for anyways lol? THM's and CNJ's don't have weaponskills anymore.

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when i mage the first thing i do is pop invigorate so i can second wind myself when i need too. saves time cause second wind is faster and mp. if you build 300 tp at start of fight should last you whole fight.

Thanks everyone.

Brigandier your guide seems very well done, I will defintly check it.

130ish Enmity reduction is lackluster at best when you crit for 600-700. Chameleon and nuke-managing is much more reliable. Wand-whacking at start while tank builds hate+invigorate will take care of your TP needs for the whole fight, so added TP is lackluster too. Also, I don't want to add another spell buff that locks me in animations into my rotation, especially for such a minor effect. And lastly, what skill would you remove to add Quelling strike in your bars?

^ lol... you're using it multiple times throughout a fight. easily adding up to a hateless Thundara. Not the most efficient form of hate management, but by no means should be disregarded. As for animation lock, lol again. There's plenty of things that you can replace it with.

Hm, lets see. Cross-class skills so far:

1.Raise
2.Cure
3.Chameleon
4.Sentinel
5.Second Wind
6.Invigorate
7.Sacred Prism
8.Stoneskin
9.Stone
10.Aero

Only possible ones would be Invigorate (but it's MUCH more reliable for TP generation) and Stone/Aero (if your Conjurers can keep up their debuffs). Still, I wouldn't replace any of these with Quelling Strike in a boss environment. So for me, Quelling Strike continues to be lackluster and not needed.

Stone and Aero potency are severely diminished when cross-classing on THM because the spells do not have an INT modifier when cross-classed. Even on CNJ stone only does maybe 200, and that's with the INT modifier. Aero does even less. You are better off spamming Thunder over and over than using either of these spells for DPS. Stone does provide a secondary benefit in MEVA down so I can at least see that argument popping up to keep it on your bar but I have a hard time making a case for Aero. The DoT effect is roughly -13/tick when tested on soil smear, so it just barely (if not even) adds up to a single Thunder.

Personally I wouldn't put either of the CNJ nukes on my THM bar for Ifrit. It is true that the enmity reduction is "lackluster", but there doesn't seem to be any situation where the most optimal next action in the Ifrit fight is to use Stone, and most certainly not Aero. If this still doesn't convince you, then I could also make the case that if you use Quelling Strike every 60 seconds (300TP each), you negate the need for Invigorate because you only need about 250 a minute for Second Wind. Or even use Invigorate then switch your bar at the start of the fight. Again, Quelling Strike is a small benefit, but if you're min/maxing efficiency, it is still required to be "most efficient".

Replace Stone. It reduces earth magic evasion according to the translations of the ability in other languages and the original class skills list posted way back in 1.18 days. Now you can spend more emnity on Thunder and Thundara.

Note: I looked for a few minutes but I couldn't find the link to the original class and job abilities list. Maybe someone else can track it down?

Edit: Nevermind. Apparently that was bad information. Still a fan of Quelling Strike though. I'd take out Invigorate. You can either melee Ifrit to 2k or 3k TP at the start and never need TP, or spam Quelling Strike and probably never need TP, or something in between. Quelling Strike has the added benefit of reducing emnity though.

Again using Lemurs in Treespeak and the Soil Smear ability, Stone gives -29 MEVA where the amount of MEVA down was not dependent on the level of the mob nor the PIE/enfeebling skill of the player (rank of the caster may contribute though). There is no "earth specific" evasion down related to this spell in its actual use, despite whatever translation people have previously referred to.

Yea, I'm only using stone and aero for the debuffs as their dmg is laughable. Hence the preference of a Conjurer casting them, but if they are too busy curing stuff we can just debuff ourselves. M-Eva down is quite annoying to land though.

Yes Quelling Strike can replace Invigorate for TP generation but it needs 5 casts of it to generate the same amount, and still it's much easier to whack him a bit at start while the tank builds aggro. You could argue that TP generation abilities are not needed at all if you whack to 3k at start. And seeing as we have managed to short work Ifrit already I'd say there's no need to add Quelling Strike to push that small bit of more efficiency at the games current stage. Personally, I'll just wait for any major patch or update to revisit tweaks to my action bar.

Edit: 29 M-Eva down is quite a lot if it works on a 1:1 ratio against accuracy which I'm guessing it does. For reference, 4 Black pearls will give you 20 m-acc. And if the accessory reform hits our m-acc then the debuff will become even better.

My input was in response to you listing out your 10 cross-class abilities and questioning the need for Aero to be on there. There is an argument for Stone being there due to the MEVA down effect. I cannot find a proper reason for Aero being there though. At -13 / tick for a maximum of 10 ticks you're looking at 130 damage in addition to Aero's initial damage. This may not even add up to 200, or the average damage of a single basic Thunder. There is no known special benefit to having a DoT present in this case (for instance, it does not surpress Ifrit's high Regen rate).

Regarding Invigorate, I agree that it's just easy to use and I use it as well. I feel like for optimization you should drop Aero and replace it with Quelling Strike. The argument that "we do fine without it" may be true, but is kind of not relevant in a min/max discussion right? It's true you're fine either way, but it's also true that you would be more efficient (albeit not by much) with Quelling.

Regarding Stone. The argument that it's useful for the -29 MEVA is a bit more dicey. I still feel it's not useful simply because if you look at the average duration of the MEVA down, it is definitely not the full 30+ seconds you see on many other debuffs. It may only last 10-15 seconds maximum and it's pretty consistent. This means it'll probably only be active (if it even lands) on your next 2 nukes. Ifrit is essentially an exercise in dodge > Thunder > Thundara > dodge > etc.. I question how much time you actually have to throw in another nuke (stone) w/o compromising safety, though it's hard to back this up with something as simple as a paper formula.

Finally, regarding the overall concept and use for a move like Quelling Strike. We must remember that a THM's damage is limited by 3 factors - resist rates, MP pool and regen rate, and enmity. One of these 3 things is going to limit your output. For Ifrit with a half-way decent MACC set, the limiting factor is by far going to be enmity. This means that to become more "efficient" from a DPS perspective, increasing damage or MACC really doesn't improve overall DPS that much because you'll be capped by enmity anyways (you just may need more nukes to get there). The only way to reliably increase the DPS would be to increase the enmity generation of the tank or decrease the enmity generation of the THM. Quelling Strike does this, and although we all agree it's "lackluster", but will certainly provide you more benefit than -29 MEVA for 10-15 seconds after a Stone cast.

EDIT:
Thinking more about this and Aero. There may be an additional benefit in that that +130 damage you get from the Aero DoT effect is not counted towards your enmity. So it's essentially 130 "free damage" (which is basically the same as Quelling). So from this point of view I can actually concede that Aero does have a benefit on DPS (it just won't be seen on a parser). So I guess the question to have Quelling on your bar comes down to Stone or even Invig versus Quelling. I'd still argue not to use Stone but at least I can give a valid reason to use Aero for increasing DPS.

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Originally Posted by Razen_Arghast

Yea, I'm only using stone and aero for the debuffs as their dmg is laughable. Hence the preference of a Conjurer casting them, but if they are too busy curing stuff we can just debuff ourselves. M-Eva down is quite annoying to land though.

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Note that it seems that Stone's debuff is related to earth magic evasion, not general magic evasion, so it would be pretty pointless for a Thaumaturge trying to land it. You can peruse the details HERE.
I think this is a Location issue, so I'll be posting there for an official response in order to clarify this matter.

^ only offensive spells you should be casting are the Thunder Combo

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Originally Posted by Umo

Note that it seems that Stone's debuff is related to earth magic evasion, not general magic evasion, so it would be pretty pointless for a Thaumaturge trying to land it. You can peruse the details HERE.
I think this is a Location issue, so I'll be posting there for an official response in order to clarify this matter.

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While the translations say one thing, there appears to have been testing to say otherwise:

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Again using Lemurs in Treespeak and the Soil Smear ability, Stone gives -29 MEVA where the amount of MEVA down was not dependent on the level of the mob nor the PIE/enfeebling skill of the player (rank of the caster may contribute though). There is no "earth specific" evasion down related to this spell in its actual use, despite whatever translation people have previously referred to.

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SE needs to get this crap right.

That claim made no sense and had no logical basis to begin with anyway.

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Originally Posted by Actus

That claim made no sense and had no logical basis to begin with anyway.

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I never understood why everybody immediately jumped to the conclusion that the French translation was correct and the English translation was wrong. My immediate take was that the French translation of "earth magic potency" almost had to be wrong, because it didn't make any damn sense for it to be that way.

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Originally Posted by Conradus

I never understood why everybody immediately jumped to the conclusion that the French translation was correct and the English translation was wrong. My immediate take was that the French translation of "earth magic potency" almost had to be wrong, because it didn't make any damn sense for it to be that way.

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Maybe due to the fact that they described the spell's effect the same way on Class Reforms & Action Lists post:

CNJ Mag. 10 Deals earth damage to the target. Chance to reduce evasion against earth magic.

It could be wrong on both French client and that official post, that's for sure. Furthermore, on English client the text doesn't show "Chance to inflict Magic Evasion Down" but "Chance to inflict Evasion Down" instead.
Anyway, I've posted HERE in hope of an official response; that's not going to hurt in any way, right?

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

My input was in response to you listing out your 10 cross-class abilities and questioning the need for Aero to be on there. There is an argument for Stone being there due to the MEVA down effect. I cannot find a proper reason for Aero being there though. At -13 / tick for a maximum of 10 ticks you're looking at 130 damage in addition to Aero's initial damage. This may not even add up to 200, or the average damage of a single basic Thunder. There is no known special benefit to having a DoT present in this case (for instance, it does not surpress Ifrit's high Regen rate).

Regarding Invigorate, I agree that it's just easy to use and I use it as well. I feel like for optimization you should drop Aero and replace it with Quelling Strike. The argument that "we do fine without it" may be true, but is kind of not relevant in a min/max discussion right? It's true you're fine either way, but it's also true that you would be more efficient (albeit not by much) with Quelling.

Regarding Stone. The argument that it's useful for the -29 MEVA is a bit more dicey. I still feel it's not useful simply because if you look at the average duration of the MEVA down, it is definitely not the full 30+ seconds you see on many other debuffs. It may only last 10-15 seconds maximum and it's pretty consistent. This means it'll probably only be active (if it even lands) on your next 2 nukes. Ifrit is essentially an exercise in dodge > Thunder > Thundara > dodge > etc.. I question how much time you actually have to throw in another nuke (stone) w/o compromising safety, though it's hard to back this up with something as simple as a paper formula.

Finally, regarding the overall concept and use for a move like Quelling Strike. We must remember that a THM's damage is limited by 3 factors - resist rates, MP pool and regen rate, and enmity. One of these 3 things is going to limit your output. For Ifrit with a half-way decent MACC set, the limiting factor is by far going to be enmity. This means that to become more "efficient" from a DPS perspective, increasing damage or MACC really doesn't improve overall DPS that much because you'll be capped by enmity anyways (you just may need more nukes to get there). The only way to reliably increase the DPS would be to increase the enmity generation of the tank or decrease the enmity generation of the THM. Quelling Strike does this, and although we all agree it's "lackluster", but will certainly provide you more benefit than -29 MEVA for 10-15 seconds after a Stone cast.

EDIT:
Thinking more about this and Aero. There may be an additional benefit in that that +130 damage you get from the Aero DoT effect is not counted towards your enmity. So it's essentially 130 "free damage" (which is basically the same as Quelling). So from this point of view I can actually concede that Aero does have a benefit on DPS (it just won't be seen on a parser). So I guess the question to have Quelling on your bar comes down to Stone or even Invig versus Quelling. I'd still argue not to use Stone but at least I can give a valid reason to use Aero for increasing DPS.

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Kaeko is legit. I am a fan.

I use Quelling Strike myself, for both of its benefits. As Kaeko mentioned, it's just more efficient. For TP gains, Invigorate is excessive and has only one use vs. Quelling Strike. And whacking things for 3k TP is just ridiculous to me. If you need more than 300TP every minute in any of the end game content as THM, then you're doing something wrong.