Creepy possibility... [4.3 spoilers]

So after the recent MSQ revelation about

Elezenos, I wonder if he was an NPC in Rhalgr's Reach/Porta Praetoria/Ala Mhigo at any point?

I'm not too sure, but when I sae him I swear his eyes looked familiar.

"Looking familiar" isn't too good a judge of a character actually being familiar, because of the limited range of character creator options. There are only really two 'general' male Elezen faces (plus the 'young' and 'old' ones), so a lot of characters will have a similar appearance. Eg. Haurchefant, Artoirel, Estinien and Briardien all have the same basic face as [new character], and it's also the default setting in the character creator.


On finding the character elsewhere....

it might be worthwhile having a look at background characters in the area during Stormblood's finale? Other than that, yes it would be interesting to keep an eye out for any Elezen resistance fighters when I eventually get to replaying Stormblood.

I think he is the scientist who created the Black Rose, conducted terrible experiments in Bittermill and was found with his mind apparently wrecked. He has the same blue eyes.
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Frantic_Fellow
https://youtu.be/E7P8nkMliZI?t=167

It's not that guy either, or at least he certainly doesn't have the same character model. (Though he certainly seems like a plot thread that was left hanging.)

I've been using the Garland Tools NPC database to check these, by the way. It lists the exact character design settings for each NPC. The "Katana-wielding soldier" is listed in the first unlabeled 'no location' tab (which seems to be for cutscene characters) and anyone else can be looked up by the location(s) where they are found.

(That said, it's not 100% reliable for 'hidden details' or customised character designs, and characters occasionally get redesigned - eg. Estinien-the-dragoon actually has a different face design to how he looks in Stormblood - but it's useful for just comparing character models.)

The Zenos-possessed Elezen seems to have been a Resistance soldier, though whether or not we personally met him is unknown.

The eye color is striking, but it seems to be very close (if not identical) to that of Zenos' body, and is likely meant to further clue people in to what exactly is going on with him.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's not that guy either, or at least he certainly doesn't have the same character model. (Though he certainly seems like a plot thread that was left hanging.)

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I'm pretty sure the dialog toward the end of the quest noted that that scientist was executed, despite his mental regression. So, not really a hanging thread. No "Tsuyu" treatment for him, it seems!

In regards to Elezenos, I did appreciate the unexpected callback to the Sahagin chieftain, who used the Echo to body-surf. Seems the Resonance can do the same thing, even if Zenos didn't explicitly intend it!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I'm pretty sure the dialog toward the end of the quest noted that that scientist was executed, despite his mental regression. So, not really a hanging thread. No "Tsuyu" treatment for him, it seems!

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I do remember them saying that. It seemed unfair at the time and yes, even more so in light of how Yotsuyu was handled. Though perhaps my character's discomfort with how that was handled is exactly why she wants to see Tsuyu given a better chance.

I think it's important to remember in the case of the Black Rose scientist we're dealing with the Eorzean Alliance and with Yotsuyu, Doma. Their motivations for their crimes differed too--not that it excuses either of them. I just think it's a bit fruitless to compare, different people who committed different crimes and sentenced/given judgement by different bodies of authority in different parts of Hydaelyn. The amnesia is the only common factor for these Imperials, and while a pretty compelling basis for comparison I feel things would've played out different had, like, Tahla Molkoh petitioned Brookstone that Grillairmais' crimes could be excused/his survival in part of the Elemental's will etc. etc.

It was probably a Doman soldier that was conscripted to fight for the Empire, we fight tons of them through the various dungeons and they use katanas.

The guy who came up with Black Rose is an elezen, but he was fully cooperating with the Garleans the entire time. Furthermore, he hid a few containers of Black Rose in the Fringe and gave himself amnesia as one last "Fuck you!" to Giaus after Giaus shut down his his pet project. Giaus is recorded as being very annoyed that the XIVth Legion would never find all the manufactured Black Rose since killing off the population whole-sale was never his goal. From all accounts, when the scientist was in his right mind he didn't have a problem with what he was doing, if anything he enjoyed it too much...

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I'm not too sure, but when I sae him I swear his eyes looked familiar.

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Eh, when I saw his eyes I immediately thought Zenos. I think they are a similar blue, maybe?
Also, those ear pockets look retrospectively sewn on to me meaning he doesn't have to look like an Elezen, even, but I might be wrong on that.

That's exactly how that helmet looks on any Elezen.

They go for the 'you bastard' route and he is possessing the deceased body of Hauchefant.
Which would do wonders for the WoL's psyche, especially Dark Knights.

It really is not going to be Haurchefant. It doesn't look like him beyond using the same basic face, and even if it did? Zenos probably has no idea that he ever existed, let alone the question of whether he's even able to possess someone who died several months ago and a long way away from Ala Mhigo.

If we're using the Sahagin chief as a previous example of what's going on, he only took over the bodies of people standing immediately next to him. It may only be a short-distance transfer.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

it might be worthwhile having a look at background characters in the area during Stormblood's finale? Other than that, yes it would be interesting to keep an eye out for any Elezen resistance fighters when I eventually get to replaying Stormblood.

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Try rewatching cutscenes at an inn? Might be something in those.

I'm worried relations with Garlemeld are going to get worse if Zenos manages to keep his resistance soldier disguise and say, ruins any attempt at a ceasefire made at Ala Mihgo.

I can't get excited for another war, especially when they feel manufactured.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It was probably a Doman soldier that was conscripted to fight for the Empire, we fight tons of them through the various dungeons and they use katanas.

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I doubt the elezen ever fought with a katana previously. In Asahi's flashback(in 4.2 I think?), Zenos just took one from a Doman Resistance member he killed. He probably just grabbed the first one he saw laying around after he woke up.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I'm worried relations with Garlemeld are going to get worse if Zenos manages to keep his resistance soldier disguise and say, ruins any attempt at a ceasefire made at Ala Mihgo.

I can't get excited for another war, especially when they feel manufactured.

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I doubt that would be the result if Xenos were to brazenly assault us in Ala Mhigo or whatever. If he comes after us, he'll likely come after us alone - after all, what he wants is a one-on-one confrontation with us, not a battle royale with many participants. He also doesn't seem at all interested in hiring on other Garleans; if he wanted to be part of the Garlean machine, he could have laid low, hidden his identity, and played along with the other Garleans. Instead, he slaughtered a soldier, and stole an airship. I'd say his Garlean bridges are burned at this point.

And if a single soldier barges in... A nation LOOKING for conflict, like the Garlean Empire, might eagerly jump at the chance to go to war over it, but the Eorzean Alliance wants peace. They'll be more interested in treating it as an isolated incident, a renegade Garlean soldier who just couldn't stomach defeat, or whatever. And if the renegade displays Xenos-like traits during his assault? The Alliance will be far more keenly interested in HIM than they will be in what uniform he's wearing.

If it were the other way around, a solitary soldier wearing Alliance colors and making an assault on the Garlean empire, I'd say you'd have cause for concern of it sparking another war. The Alliance, on the other hand, is much more vested in keeping things civil.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I doubt the elezen ever fought with a katana previously. In Asahi's flashback(in 4.2 I think?), Zenos just took one from a Doman Resistance member he killed. He probably just grabbed the first one he saw laying around after he woke up.

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Some of imperial soldiers you fight throughout the various dungeons and missions in SB, including the spectres of the homeland during Tuskiyomi have katanas. Because many are Domans who were conscripted into the Empire.

All of his lines strongly hint that it's Zenos, he has the same eye color, and the move he uses to KO / kill the Resistance captain is the very first move we see Zenos use on-screen.

It's Zenos.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

... if he wanted to be part of the Garlean machine, he could have laid low, hidden his identity, and played along with the other Garleans. Instead, he slaughtered a soldier, and stole an airship. I'd say his Garlean bridges are burned at this point.

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I think you're getting the armies muddled - are you thinking Zenos('s body) is a Garlean soldier? He's dressed as an Ala Mhigan Resistance fighter, as is the other soldier that tried to stop him from stealing the airship. They're in a Garlean facility but it seems to be the captured Castrum Abania.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

It was probably a Doman soldier that was conscripted to fight for the Empire, we fight tons of them through the various dungeons and they use katanas.

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I don't think there's any need for the person to have been a katana user previously. Zenos is now in control of the body, and he fights with a katana so he acquired one. (And I think you're also thinking he's a Garlean not Ala Mhigan soldier?)

Also, while it doesn't guarantee anything, I don't think we've seen any native Doman Elezen.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

All of his lines strongly hint that it's Zenos, he has the same eye color, and the move he uses to KO / kill the Resistance captain is the very first move we see Zenos use on-screen.

It's Zenos.

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He also smirks at the end of the scene and it's very much Zenos's expression.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I think you're getting the armies muddled - are you thinking Zenos('s body) is a Garlean soldier? He's dressed as an Ala Mhigan Resistance fighter, as is the other soldier that tried to stop him from stealing the airship. They're in a Garlean facility but it seems to be the captured Castrum Abania.

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Yes, I may be. I certainly thought they were supposed to be Garlean while I was watching that scene, but that was likely due to the surroundings, and I wasn't paying much attention to the uniforms. However, that makes it even less likely that a solo assault by Soul!Zenos on an allied base would cause the Alliance to renew war with the Garleans.

It's possible that Zenos could have taken that airship to head home to Garlemand - but I find it unlikely. He's no fool, and he knows that it would be quite a struggle to prove that he's the real Zenos, even if he's unaware that there's an imposter using his body - and even if he's able, he's likely aware of his father's distain for him. His father might very well prefer his son stay dead, especially considering the considerable mismanagement Zenos displayed in his "defense" of Ala Mhigo (aka, laying out the red carpet for his destined foe). He'd most likely have to slay his father, somehow convince the Garleans to accept himself as the new ruler, etc, etc, etc. All of that hassle would be a dreadful waste of time when he COULD be using that time to track down his one true love for a rematch.

I personally like the theory that...

Spoiler

...it's Haurchefant's body. >w>

I would love to say that this was my theory, but I'm just relaying something I read on an anonymous forum. RE: Elezenos

It's Estinien.

The reasoning here is that he was the one who destroyed Nidhogg's eyes, releasing the last bit of aether they had back into the world. Zenos used the power of the eyes and his own Resonance to control - and literally become - a primal. We know from the Sahagin priest that it's possible for a soul with the echo to "hop" from one body to the next, and given the power of Zenos and his Resonance combined with the timing of everything, Estinien makes the most sense from a purely FF14 standpoint.

Next we have the historical allusions, cause we all know SE and Yoshi love to slip in references to previous FF games. Estinien is basically Kain from FF4 in a lot of ways. His iconic armor, the DRG AF1 set, is a very faithful recreation of Kain's armor from FF4. Kain was "mind controlled" twice over the course of FF4 while Estinien has been "mind controlled" (or possessed if you will) once, during Heavensward. This would mark the second time, and given Estiniens past was filled with loss and suffering, it makes sense Zenos would be especially drawn to it. Plus there's the side benefit of Estinien being a battle-hardened veteran of hundreds of battles, so Zenos can more or less pick right up where he left off as far as physical combat ability goes.

In sum, it's a combination of larger "meta plot" reference and allusion coupled with the time and place of Zenos' death along with whoever was in proximity at the time.

Since this topic started, I've been intending to put together a comparative chart of different characters using the 'Elezen face #2' and their exact settings, and I finally got around to it. Please forgive my Microsoft Paint editing skills.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...f2e1164313.jpg
(click for a larger version)

I think they do a good job of making characters look individual despite the limitations of the character creator.

I was intending to stick to 'general' characters but the one on the right (Guydelot) is from the HW/SB bard quests - I did those just recently, after playing 4.3, and he particularly reminded me of Elezenos so I'm including him. Turns out they have the same eye colour so perhaps it's that. Also while rewatching the quest cutscenes to get a screenshot of him I realised that Nourval also uses the same face but looks quite different.

(There are more characters, of course, but this is enough to get the idea - and also I couldn't fit any more without the image uploader resizing the image.)

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Originally Posted by Quor

Kain was "mind controlled" twice over the course of FF4 while Estinien has been "mind controlled" (or possessed if you will) once, during Heavensward.

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Actually.....

Estinien has already been possessed twice - the first time being during the (honestly rather confusing) climax to the ARR dragoon quests. So he doesn't need to be possessed again by Zenos to fulfil that historical allusion.

Also I'm not sure about him destroying Nidhogg's eyes being an opportunity for Zenos to posess him. Zenos's soul would have most likely been still in his body until it transferred to the Elezen soldier? Since he dies *after* we beat Shinryu, and his body doesn't seem to be in the vicinity of the Eyes when Estinien turns up. Although that's a different kind of plothole if they already cleared the bodies and left the Eyes there - but perhaps they simply weren't looking for them, and Estinien was.

Well apparently according to Yoshi, this NPC (the Elezen) we have never seen the actual Elezen(model) before. At least according to this source:

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The Elezen from the Ala mhigan registance in patch 4.3 is a totally new character we haven't seen before. (note: We all assume he isn't, but Yoshida probably meant the "body" was a new character we've never seen before)

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._bad_news_for/

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Actually.....

Estinien has already been possessed twice - the first time being during the (honestly rather confusing) climax to the ARR dragoon quests. So he doesn't need to be possessed again by Zenos to fulfil that historical allusion.

Also I'm not sure about him destroying Nidhogg's eyes being an opportunity for Zenos to posess him. Zenos's soul would have most likely been still in his body until it transferred to the Elezen soldier? Since he dies *after* we beat Shinryu, and his body doesn't seem to be in the vicinity of the Eyes when Estinien turns up. Although that's a different kind of plothole if they already cleared the bodies and left the Eyes there - but perhaps they simply weren't looking for them, and Estinien was.

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Come to think of it you're right. That punches a hole in that theory then. I had forgotten about the ending to the ARR DRG quests.

Garland database's use of Face 2 for Estinien is due to the the place holder face he had prior to 3.3's unmasking of him. His new model no longer uses face 2.

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Originally Posted by BlakeWolfe

Garland database's use of Face 2 for Estinien is due to the the place holder face he had prior to 3.3's unmasking of him. His new model no longer uses face 2.

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No, that’s the correct one. The placeholder face is #1, has a different hairstyle and doesn’t have the ‘eyeshadow’ facepaint.

-after following garland database's list and and recreating it and comparing with the the 3.3 scene of Estinien waking up- Hm, guess I just don't run into that many elezen players using those particular options they used for Estinien.

I think the NPCs tend to use some settings that players don't normally think of using - quite a few have the different eyeshadow effects, some have different lip colours. Perhaps because they're trying to make their many characters look different whereas most players are trying to make their one character look good.

I do agree that they could well be using a placeholder settings for Elezenos. They could update it in coming patches, or when revealing who is hiding beneath the Ala Mhigan Resistance turban.

As for the identity of the Elezen host, well... Let us assume the eyes changed color to clue about Zenos' identity. I just replayed the end of 4.3 with one of my alts and when they are discussing an Ascian possessing Zenos' body, the moment right before Elezenos appears for the first time, this is what Thancred points out:

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http://i64.tinypic.com/8z4apl.jpg

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Of course, this is probably meant to help us realize that Zenos' soul found an host as well, because the reason that allows Ascians to possess dead and alive is that they have the Echo, and Zenos is a Resonant after all. But I do wonder, was that truly the only purpose of these comments?

Thancred does say, if they have got zero qualms to take over a living host, then let alone a dead one. We saw that too in the SMN lvl60 questline. From the theories I have read in this thread, I am going to reflect on them based on this.

1) A completely new character, irrelevant aside from the fact he is hosting Zenos. It could be well a possibility, that whether dead or alive, Zenos hijacked this Elezen just because why not. But unless we know more, that thought kind of feels wasted. Sure, the Ala Mhigan Resistance uniform involves the turban and the griffin-beak-like garment, so they basically hide all their features. It could be a random choice, or simply that Garlean models are mostly based on Elezen, but still, why an Elezen? They are not particularly prolific in Gyr Abania, and even less in the Resistance. Also, why bother hiding your features if he is a random character? This is something that leads me to the other two prominent options.
2) Estinien. He would be a living host, and he was indeed close to Zenos' site of demise when he went to destroy Nidhogg's eyes. Yet, there is two points that make me think he cannot be. One is the DRG lvl70 questline, and other is his former arc in Heavensward. He has already gone through possession and I feel it would be wasting a plotline already used on his character. I can see, however, Estinien showing up to help us deal with... whatever is going to happen.
3) Lord Haurchefant. As it happens with Estinien, Elezenos' model's features do not quite match with his, but as said before, it could be merely a placeholder, and mainly because Haurche's beak nose is pretty recognizable. Despite it seems delusional, there is the DRK lvl70 questline reminding us that his (and Ysayle's) memory and the WoL's guilt and pain from his death is still there. In 4.1, Fordola reeled at her Echo showing, amongst other images of our past, an image of the WoL kneeling alone before Haurche's memorial, and she specifically comments on their pain. The idea of an Ascian messing up with the WoL by taking Haurchefant's body is something I have always thought quite possible and not at all above their modus operandi. But the possibility of being Zenos instead could be interesting, particularly because in his mind, the WoL is his bestie (and he actually propositioned to them before the final battle, mind). He is quite obsessed with them, and it could be a stark contrast between Haurchefant saving our life and Zenos trying to hunt us down as their way of understanding this bond. There are many chances that this will not be the case, but the constant of reminding us of Haurchefant is interesting. I would make a comparison with how every time there is a reference to Haurchefant there is another to Ysayle, and in this patch there was one, but it would be spoiler-ish enough.

So these are my two cents. Indeed, I am not sure of which will it be. For now we only know it is Zenos inside that Elezen, but is there a particular reason for the choosing of that host? That is what I wonder. Until next patches, the only thing we can do is speculate with what we are given.

We actually have very hard confirmation that it's not Haurchefant who Zenos is possessing. During one of the interviews Yoshida had at E3, he talked about how he does like giving players true hints about where the story is going next, because that anticipation is fun for the players. He said he doesn't like giving players false hints if he and the story team can help it, because that creates a false anticipation. His example of a "true hint" was the zoom-in on a certain mask at the end of 4.3. He specifically told the cut-scene creators to do that shot so that it was a very obvious hint to the players about who the Shadowhunter really is so long as they recognized the mask. His example of a "false hint" was how he read some players were theorizing that Zenos had taken over Haurchefant and wished that he and the story team could have come up with a better way of showing that whoever Zenos was possessing wasn't Haurchefant so that players wouldn't be mislead.

As far as where the person Zenos is possessing could have come from... we see Ishgardean Elezen in the Ala Mhigo dungeon. It's probably one of them.

Yoshi-P said verbatim it was a "new" character. It's not Haurchefant. Like as not it's just some otherwise unimportant Resistance schmuck who ended up getting possessed by Zenos.

It is just speculation, as I said. I am just curious and pondering the options. If Yoshi-P says it is not, then I will believe his words. For now, that is. In any case, the word "new" is kind of... weird. We know it is Zenos. The Elezen is merely his host, though.

But meh. I just have fun theorizing and speculating. Do not mind me. :'D

I don't think the Elezen host is anyone particularly noteworthy, rather he was probably just an unsuspecting Resistance fighter who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And given that an Ascian (most likely Elidibus) is masquerading as Zenos using his old body I hardly think they planned for Zenos proper to body jump after his death.

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

I don't think the Elezen host is anyone particularly noteworthy, rather he was probably just an unsuspecting Resistance fighter who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And given that an Ascian (most likely Elidibus) is masquerading as Zenos using his old body I hardly think they planned for Zenos proper to body jump after his death.

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One of my theories (and admitedly, funniest mental images) is Zenos' soul trying to get back to his original body and finding out that it has already been occupied by a non-invited Ascian guest. C:

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Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson

I don't think the Elezen host is anyone particularly noteworthy, rather he was probably just an unsuspecting Resistance fighter who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And given that an Ascian (most likely Elidibus) is masquerading as Zenos using his old body I hardly think they planned for Zenos proper to body jump after his death.

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He doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who care about which body he's in.
If anything he now has more freedom so all the better.

Side note : people use the word theory wrongly way too often.

Side note 2 : very interesting topic to read so far :}