Monk Enmity Skill in 4.3

So the Live Letter has come and gone and now we know what some of the devs planned changes are. However, the Monk enmity skill sticks out to me for how badly implemented it seems to be.

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MNK - Enmity supress skill will be added, though the trade off is firepower when used.

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Why should Monk be the only Job that has to trade damage for an enmity cut (assuming that is what it is, since we already have diversion). Every job barring Monk and Samurai can cut their aggro at this time as an added benefit to some other action (or as an end in and of itself in Ninja's case). Dragoon has a movement skill that cuts enmity, Ninja cuts enmity and gives it to the tank, Casters and Healers regenerate their mana (and cut enmity), and the ranged jobs regenerate resources for everyone (and cut their enmity).

Is it really so hard to just put a 1/2 enmity effect on Invigorate, or attach the 1/2 aggro cut to something that won't cost us damage?

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Is it really so hard to just put a 1/2 enmity effect on Invigorate, or attach the 1/2 aggro cut to something that won't cost us damage?

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I really wonder what's up with this, of all the viable options they could've done, all the quality of life improvement they could've given to monk, not necessarily buffs, just improvements to the current formula we get this?

Plus, in raids I never have threat problems as long as I use diversion, why is this even being considered as a viable change?

tbh though, mnk needs to be pulled back some. They have brotherhood which has been creeping up on Sam this entire expansion. Samurai should get a free dump, mnk should have to pay in some way. Dragoons dump does work with mobility however in the case where you need to dump, but you don't need to move. Elusive Jump is a loss. Wait for the skill to come out before you sharpen your pitch fork

What if.........the skill in question will be TK?

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

tbh though, mnk needs to be pulled back some.

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This won't pull back monk, if it's just a new skill with a "fire power trade off" like it was worded, people just won't use it, which makes monk virtually unchanged

It's probably going to be on Riddle of Earth.

I feel like they'll be tying it to Purification. They also said the MNK changes were in line with the SAM changes, which makes me think that Merciful Eyes will be an enmity dump too. It's not an ideal way of going about it, especially for the high end, since this will result in enmity dumping being a DPS loss...

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Originally Posted by Popotato

I feel like they'll be tying it to Purification. They also said the MNK changes were in line with the SAM changes, which makes me think that Merciful Eyes will be an enmity dump too. It's not an ideal way of going about it, especially for the high end, since this will result in enmity dumping being a DPS loss...

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I suppose the difference there is that Merciful Eyes being a dump on Samurai is an incredibly minor loss since Seigan is only about 1.2 more potency per Kenki than Shinten which you'll still have the Kenki for since it doesn't cost any resources, whereas Forbidden Chakra is Monk's strongest oGCD and there isn't an option for a marginally less effective oGCD on the table there.

Ultimately it just gives Monk a bad option for things other Jobs can do at little to no cost to themselves.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

tbh though, mnk needs to be pulled back some. They have brotherhood which has been creeping up on Sam this entire expansion. Samurai should get a free dump, mnk should have to pay in some way. Dragoons dump does work with mobility however in the case where you need to dump, but you don't need to move. Elusive Jump is a loss. Wait for the skill to come out before you sharpen your pitch fork

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1. Monk doesn't need to be pulled back some, it isn't the stupid powerhouse that DRG/BRD/NIN are.
2. Even if it did, this wouldn't pull Monk back at all because Monk just won't be using the dump.
3. Any fight with boss movement gives a Dragoon the opportunity to use Elusive jump to dump aggro at no cost. It can even be used in fights without movement such as O6S when you're up against the wall for a free cut.

I’m with you here that it’s absolutely infuriating that only one job in the game is getting a penalty to manage their agro. Literally every other battle job (including tanks and healers) after this patch will be able to without penalty, and as you pointed out, with a benefit.

After Diversion was buffed, though, I rarely have issues with agro, so there’s a good chance whatever they do is something many monks simply won’t use. Only maybe I can see is if there’s a fight where it’s getting high, Diversion is on cooldown, and they chose to attach the dump onto Purification as a TP refresh plus agro dump in exchange for one Forbidden Chakra seems fair.

All the mid tier dps jobs are generally a issue for power creep right now. Mnk also does fairly similar damage to samurai even without the meta comp but offers decent utility, much like how smn was to blm in 4.1. Also ninja doesn't need to be nerfed at all. That job is incredibly weak in the pdps department, even losing to Rdm and brd at some percentiles. Trick attack and enmity are potent enough to keep ninja a float. Brd and Drg however could see a nerf. MNK does relative dps to SAM and unless the buffs are on a large scale. MNK will probably still be pushing damage near SAM. it can afford to be pulled back a bit

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

All the mid tier dps jobs are generally a issue for power creep right now. Mnk also does fairly similar damage to samurai even without the meta comp but offers decent utility, much like how smn was to blm in 4.1. Also ninja doesn't need to be nerfed at all. That job is incredibly weak in the pdps department, even losing to Rdm and brd at some percentiles. Trick attack and enmity are potent enough to keep ninja a float. Brd and Drg however could see a nerf. MNK does relative dps to SAM and unless the buffs are on a large scale. MNK will probably still be pushing damage near SAM. it can afford to be pulled back a bit

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Trick Attack is as strong as ever and it's not getting any weaker, and Ninja's raid contribution still eclipses Monks.

If Monk gets pulled back then it just ends up in the position Samurai is currently in, it's hardly 'Meta' right now to the point where it may as well be the 3rd option for the 4th slot in the party after Summoner and Machinist, and the only reason people are raging at it for being to strong right now is because it's the flavor of the month and O6S lets it inflate itself. So no, it does not need to be pulled back.

And even if it did, this is the stupidest way possible to do so, because it just hamstrings Monk in a way that's unique to the job that other jobs don't suffer from (Kinda like Riddle of Earth in comparison to other buff refresh skills) and in a way that will just get ignored so it's not going to pull down the jobs damage anyway.

Trick Attack's contributions are high however, that comes at the expense of their dps, if you nerf trick attack, even if you buffed the damage back into ninja's kit. The job is still going to be weaker over all. At that point it becomes a weaker monk

Of course everyone else has free enmity cutting tools and Monk has to pay for theirs through some gimmick. The has been Monk since HW, just very weird, very questionable things added to them.

Now of course we have no idea what this is, but if it's a tool thats going to drop our damage for enmity control, Its simply never going to be used, and it'll join the rest of the useless gimmick spells Monk has like most of the tackles and Purification.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Of course everyone else has free enmity cutting tools and Monk has to pay for theirs through some gimmick. The has been Monk since HW, just very weird, very questionable things added to them.

Now of course we have no idea what this is, but if it's a tool thats going to drop our damage for enmity control, Its simply never going to be used, and it'll join the rest of the useless gimmick spells Monk has like most of the tackles and Purification.

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Hopefully they put it on One Ilm Punch so I can just continue to leave that button off my bars.

First we get the Slow debuff on riddle of fire now they're giving us a straight damage debuff too.

Don't even get me started on how infuriating it is to have to click off crit shields in order to get Riddle of Earth to proc in raid.

I don't mind the idea of trading damage for enmity suppression so long as the pDPS lost in doing so is no greater than the rDPS lost by the most enmity-efficient tank taking up the difference.

But I do mind one job having to do so while no other does. Even if the job were overtuned to make up for it, it would inadvertently increase the value of NIN by association, as its enmity reduction tools would now be worth more. This is already largely the case with SAM, nevermind even the Midare+Higan+Shinten_spam per TA (and Guren per every other) making SpeedSAM more consistently NIN-benefited than nearly any other job.

If we're going to have to drop a TFC to Purification, for instance, then
1. there should at least be further value involved in that as not to be inferior to simply more tank uptime being spent in enmity stance and as not to overly value WAR and NIN (give us more attractive, viable options by which to forgo Invigorate, for instance), and
2. that shouldn't be a penalty limited to Monk in particular; they're not THAT overtuned, even in the best of comps (e.g. no-caster), to which they are generally restricted in the first place.

Monk sees meta use only among specific gearing choices in or near BiS, among Monk-favoring comps, solely in near-perfect play. They need to see broadened compositional applicability much more than they need a nerf. SpeedMonk is poor. Monk with casters is poor.
You can play Monk well as Crit>DHit>Speed_to_breakpoint>Det=Speed_after_breakpoint in no-caster speedrun comps or basically not at all.

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Originally Posted by Popotato

I feel like they'll be tying it to Purification. They also said the MNK changes were in line with the SAM changes, which makes me think that Merciful Eyes will be an enmity dump too. It's not an ideal way of going about it, especially for the high end, since this will result in enmity dumping being a DPS loss...

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I'd actually like that to be the case across the board, though, tbh. You *can* dump enmity, but you actually have to think a bit about it, rather than just hitting it nearly per-refresh, weaving it between burst phases rather than making it another offensive CD in effect (with a benefit of tank DPS rather than your own, based upon how much enmity-potency you could trim over the window).

But, tbf, I'd rather see Role Actions removed (or drastically reworked to something more situational but impactful, e.g. Diversion INCREASING enmity or siphoning it from others in order to briefly kite if that were ever made a thing again) and every job have their unique way of managing their resources, so I clearly have some bias and ulterior motives in this...

All enmity dumps have just been something that was tacked on to something that'd be used anyways (barring Elusive Jump because animation lock and things) and frankly enmity dumps aren't even useful compared to straight up suppressing it.

Tacking it on to Riddle of Earth would make the most sense seeing as how that's actually used.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

Tacking it on to Riddle of Earth would make the most sense seeing as how that's actually used.

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It does seem to be the most likely skill to have it. Especially since they seem to be trying to redeem the other stances/riddles in general. Riddle of Wind allows us to use TK rather efficiently and now Riddle of Earth could cut enmity. Of course, it's still going to rarely used as Riddle of Earth is a last resort, but it makes sense.

I just hope they don't force us to use Earth Tackle on top of it like how wind tackle is needed for Riddle of Wind.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I just hope they don't force us to use Earth Tackle on top of it like how wind tackle is needed for Riddle of Wind.

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Oh god that'd be hilarious. Not only would it never be used like, ever, but it'd also not be up when needed! I could almost see this happening.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Why should Monk be the only Job that has to trade damage for an enmity cut (assuming that is what it is, since we already have diversion).

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Cuz MNK is the only job they obviously don't understand and just add skills for the sake of adding them.