is it time to allow Collectibles on the market board?

Curious as to why these shouldn't be allowed to be sold on the market board.

LOL No. Just No.

Collectables are meant to show your abilities with the class, not your purchasing power.

You do realize collectables are used as a type of crafting / gathering check point in a way right? They are not meant to be sold. Making them as a trade able item is like getting a trophy for nothing.

That would slowly kill what makes them collectible. If i'm understanding your idea correctly, to purchase them through the market board from other players that collected them/purchased them.

No. Gear yourself.

If they could just be purchased, Rowena and the other collectible NPCs wouldn't really need you, now would they? :P

No, and in fact I have a counter-proposal: is it time to require crafting leve turn-ins to actually be created by the person turning them in?

Come to think of it, in all seriousness, can we just have all 5.0 crafting leves use collectables as turn ins? I want to see the lazy people squirm!

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I want to see the lazy people squirm!

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You'll be hurting people who have crafters leveled on multiple alts (split specializations and gear repairs). So deffo no on that one.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You'll be hurting people who have crafters leveled on multiple alts (split specializations and gear repairs). So deffo no on that one.

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Levequests have never required being a specialist.

I honestly don't see a problem with it. People already buy levekits made by other people and use melds and crafting rotation macros made by other people. As-is most people don't actually bother to learn the classes and just slap a macro on so it hardly demonstrates ability with the classes. If anything it would be another potential market and maybe cause more people to actually get into crafting by having it be easier (plus less people would need to leave runs early because their gear breaks and they can't repair it..).

Yes, they should be. Then people who want to make money collecting them could do that, and people who want to make money some other way and spend it to level gathering could. That is how an actual economy works, after all. Rather than this silly game economy where every single bloody thing has its own currencies that are totally useless for anything else.

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I honestly don't see a problem with it. People already buy levekits made by other people and use melds and crafting rotation macros made by other people. As-is most people don't actually bother to learn the classes and just slap a macro on so it hardly demonstrates ability with the classes. If anything it would be another potential market and maybe cause more people to actually get into crafting by having it be easier (plus less people would need to leave runs early because their gear breaks and they can't repair it..).

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This is why I'm in full support of this proposal:

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Originally Posted by Talraen

No, and in fact I have a counter-proposal: is it time to require crafting leve turn-ins to actually be created by the person turning them in?

Come to think of it, in all seriousness, can we just have all 5.0 crafting leves use collectables as turn ins? I want to see the lazy people squirm!

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and I would like to add the addendum that they should retro-code all class quest turn-ins to be unique untradeable items.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

and I would like to add the addendum that they should retro-code all class quest turn-ins to be unique untradeable items.

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Did you notice how much easier the items got to craft on level in Stormblood when they did that?

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I honestly don't see a problem with it. People already buy levekits made by other people and use melds and crafting rotation macros made by other people. As-is most people don't actually bother to learn the classes and just slap a macro on so it hardly demonstrates ability with the classes. If anything it would be another potential market and maybe cause more people to actually get into crafting by having it be easier (plus less people would need to leave runs early because their gear breaks and they can't repair it..).

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This is what I was thinking as well. I've already seen people directly sell leve kits through Party Finder for real money and Gil. I've seen FCs power level others and I powerleveled my alts even though this character is an omni-crafter and gatherer (to help with Company Seals).

The lock on collectibles seems a bit pointless as you can generally buy better gear than you can get with scrips.

I wanted to open up collectibles to start a new market and hopefully increase the number of crafters on my low pop server.

Some of the people on this thread against unlocking collectibles seem to think that crafting is sacred and something a person does all on their own. It's not, often times crafting is as much a group activity as combat.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

and I would like to add the addendum that they should retro-code all class quest turn-ins to be unique untradeable items.

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Actually, I'm going to go further. Make all class quests and levequest turn in after 50 require collectables of the highest collectability rating possible. Anything less and they won't accept it. My omnicrafter FC mate is right. By just buying the items or levekits, I'm not really learning the ins and outs of the crafting classes. So do that and force out maximum collectability (and also turn off all experience gains from it except for that), as well as making Moogle and the new crafting beast tribe work the same way... yeah, then people who level crafters nowadays will learn how that stuff works more likely. Also make it so it's impossible to use macros in crafts. To encourage people to understand how the abilities work.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Actually, I'm going to go further. Make all class quests and levequest turn in after 50 require collectables of the highest collectability rating possible. Anything less and they won't accept it. My omnicrafter FC mate is right. By just buying the items or levekits, I'm not really learning the ins and outs of the crafting classes. So do that and force out maximum collectability (and also turn off all experience gains from it except for that), as well as making Moogle and the new crafting beast tribe work the same way... yeah, then people who level crafters nowadays will learn how that stuff works more likely. Also make it so it's impossible to use macros in crafts. To encourage people to understand how the abilities work.

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By time you're levelling the fifth one, not using a macro to do routine grinding is not teaching me anything except boredom and annoyance. I'm not sure how making it more hostile to do is going to help matters a whole lot.

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Originally Posted by illgot

Some of the people on this thread against unlocking collectibles seem to think that crafting is sacred and something a person does all on their own. It's not, often times crafting is as much a group activity as combat.

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I have no issue with crafting as a group activity, but it's far too easy to cheese your way through it with Gil and borrowed macros already. This stands in stark contrast to combat jobs, which absolutely cannot be played well without putting in some effort. I personally feel this isn't a good situation. It diminishes the experience for players (it's basically just a series of mindless hoops if you level via purchased Levequest items), and it harms the economy by opening the floodgates to people who have absolutely no interest in crafting, but want the money and items it can bring.

For this reason, I think there should be a series of road blocks that force people to actually progress as crafters in order to achieve max level. Part of that would be eliminating the ability to purchase turn-in items of any kind, Levequests or otherwise. Another part would probably be altering the macro system. I'd love to see regular macros eliminated entirely from crafting, but have an 'Planned Synth' option introduced alongside Quick Synthesis. It would have some conditions placed on it, like Quick Synthesis, to ensure that it only replaces regular crafting once an item is relatively trivial to craft (say, once you've HQ'd an item on your own, and/or once you over-gear the item by a certain amount). But, it would replace the macro system for crafting - and eliminate the need to have stupid shit like /wait commands in there.

Would this make crafting less convenient? Absolutely. But in my mind, it would bring crafters more in line with combat classes, in that success would require a real degree of effort. And, coupled with a long-needed system allowing items to be transferred / shared between alts, it wouldn't needlessly impede someone who was leveling crafters for the second, third, etc. time.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

By time you're levelling the fifth one, not using a macro to do routine grinding is not teaching me anything except boredom and annoyance. I'm not sure how making it more hostile to do is going to help matters a whole lot.

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The problem is, for combat classes macros are inefficient and an active hinderance (except in very specific scenarios), but crafting benefits greatly from macros (going against the whole point of what SE were going for with macros anyway). That's why I proposed that (because I don't know how else we can make macros inefficient for crafting outside of that), to make it more in line with how macros are for combat.

And yes, as a lot of my stuff was bought through, I also think they should reset all my crafters to level 1, without compensation for the money I spent (indeed, I'd even go so far as to put me in a 500 billion gil deficit, delete my house, lock me out of all my FC functions, etc). Consider it a punishment for thinking I could buy my way to success. Oh, and also reset all my GC ranks, delete all my items and currencies, you name it.

If they are sellable on the marketboard, then what is even the point of collectables? The House of Splendors could have just ask for HQ items. The entire point of collectables is make or gather the item yourself.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I have no issue with crafting as a group activity, but it's far too easy to cheese your way through it with Gil and borrowed macros already. This stands in stark contrast to combat jobs, which absolutely cannot be played well without putting in some effort. I personally feel this isn't a good situation. It diminishes the experience for players (it's basically just a series of mindless hoops if you level via purchased Levequest items), and it harms the economy by opening the floodgates to people who have absolutely no interest in crafting, but want the money and items it can bring.
For this reason, I think there should be a series of road blocks that force people to actually progress as crafters in order to achieve max level. Part of that would be eliminating the ability to purchase turn-in items of any kind, Levequests or otherwise. Another part would probably be altering the macro system. I'd love to see regular macros eliminated entirely from crafting, but have an 'Planned Synth' option introduced alongside Quick Synthesis. It would have some conditions placed on it, like Quick Synthesis, to ensure that it only replaces regular crafting once an item is relatively trivial to craft (say, once you've HQ'd an item on your own, and/or once you over-gear the item by a certain amount). But, it would replace the macro system for crafting - and eliminate the need to have stupid shit like /wait commands in there.

Would this make crafting less convenient? Absolutely. But in my mind, it would bring crafters more in line with combat classes, in that success would require a real degree of effort. And, coupled with a long-needed system allowing items to be transferred / shared between alts, it wouldn't needlessly impede someone who was leveling crafters for the second, third, etc. time.

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So far the best crafting was in ARR. The books to learn the new crafts were a challenge. They were in no way easy or fast. SE should have a look at the ARR system of crafting for 5.0. The gear and main hand should stay craft-able instead of a turn in after a certain number of HQ items are made like in ARR. The tools are useless without the books though they would help someone interested in crafting learn how to get the books with better gear. The crafting job quests. I did like how the mats were given and you could keep trying. No buying from the MB and the level 66 skill was locked behind actually doing the job quests. The HW/SB book system of get x number of scrips is unrewarding and doesn't help raise a players understanding or skill with crafts.

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Originally Posted by Millen1

So far the best crafting was in ARR. The books to learn the new crafts were a challenge. They were in no way easy or fast. SE should have a look at the ARR system of crafting for 5.0. The gear and main hand should stay craft-able instead of a turn in after a certain number of HQ items are made like in ARR. The tools are useless without the books though they would help someone interested in crafting learn how to get the books with better gear. The crafting job quests. I did like how the mats were given and you could keep trying. No buying from the MB and the level 66 skill was locked behind actually doing the job quests. The HW/SB book system of get x number of scrips is unrewarding and doesn't help raise a players understanding or skill with crafts.

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Agreed, especially given the relative lack of challenge for a lot of the recipes right now. If you hit the minimum cutoffs to attempt a recipe, HQing it reliably isn't far behind, which strikes me as odd.

There's a lot wrong with crafting, suffice it to say. Hell, I still don't even like the gearing paths; I remember literally skipping the entire set of Scrip gear on my way to Ala Mhigan stuff. That shouldn't happen. The whole system right now reminds me of a mindless time filler; there's relatively little challenge, it's pretty easy to gear up, and once you've geared up, HQing most anything is almost trivial. There's got to be a better way than this.

Also, I swear I remember there being progress-boosting material states in FFXIV 1.x. They were yellow-coloured orbs, IIRC. Why in the ever-loving fuck have we not gotten those back? Balanced properly, those would lend a tremendous amount of reactivity to crafting, that simply doesn't exist now.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

Also, I swear I remember there being progress-boosting material states in FFXIV 1.x. They were yellow-coloured orbs, IIRC. Why in the ever-loving fuck have we not gotten those back? Balanced properly, those would lend a tremendous amount of reactivity to crafting, that simply doesn't exist now.

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Because that was RNG. It's reflected in the "poor, good, excellent" states when you do it now. In V1.00, (and I may be mis-remembering this, but good gawd was it terrible) you also lost all the materials early from this IIRC. In the present system, "poor" tends to follow excellent, so you can at least predict the use of "wait" when doing things manually. Macros of course ignore the state, because you're just brute forcing the quality by following specific patterns. Existing crafting has RNG in it, but you can also just get a perfect item every time if you outgear the recipe.

That said, the issue really in regards to collectables is that you can just "buy" the materials from the NPC's. So you're basically turning a 1K purchase into a collectable value directly instead of being forced to buy materials off the market board and thus keeping up the gil sinks in the marketplace. If you can just buy the collectable directly, then people can just trade it directly in for scrips/experience to level that crafter without actually doing the work. Now you might go "well what's wrong with that?" and I say everything. If you want to allow this, then you must make it so the NPC's can not sell any precursor materials to producing a collectable.

What I mean is that the anything you can "buy" from a NPC to produce a collectible, can not, and should not be able to produce a collectable to be put on the market. Otherwise players can just flood the market with these things since they require little effort to make and are cheap.

So, basically, O.P. you want to know how we'd feel about people being able to buy Master Crafting and Gathering Books, Scrip Items and Scrip Gear for gil, rather than actually going out and doing some crafting or gathering?

I'm against this idea. You can already level crafting and gathering classes to max by buying your leve turn-ins and I know people who've done that. However, you cannot get certain materials, the master books and the Scrip Gear without making some effort yourself.
To me that strikes the perfect balance. For people who have limited play-time, only want to level their crafters for repairing gear or who are levelling an alt class to cover more specialisations, the Leves offer a nice shortcut. Making Collectables purchasable is just going too far. The whole point of them is that they are something you have to do for yourself rather than simply hitting the MB and buying your way to the rewards. If that is too much effort or just not fun for you, then maybe Crafting and Gathering aren't for you. I don't think major changes like this should be made to accommodate people who either don't like the content or are too lazy to actually do it.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Also make it so it's impossible to use macros in crafts. To encourage people to understand how the abilities work.

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One does not follow the other.
Current practice, buy gear, look up macro, copy macro to game, click button.
Your suggested practice, buy gear, look up the list of skills to craft the item, click lots of buttons.

Removing macros doesn't force people to learn. Also, macros work just fine in combat; the only area they don't work is maximizing DPS, using a macro means you're on a 3sec gcd instead of a 2.5gcd because you can't do less than 1sec intervals. Since crafting doesn't have an equivalent of DPS its an irrelevant comparison to make.

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Originally Posted by Ariane

If they are sellable on the marketboard, then what is even the point of collectables? The House of Splendors could have just ask for HQ items. The entire point of collectables is make or gather the item yourself.

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Most crafted items have a makers mark on them, so the game knows who crafted it (consumables are the obvious exception). If they wanted you to have to turn in HQ items you made yourself, they absolutely could have done that without collectables. A lot of the collectables are easier to make than the HQ equivalent because HQ is binary while collectability is on a range (and doesn't have a chance to fail at 97%), so they can have tiers of success instead of flat out pass/fail.

We have enough crafting/gathering bots around as it is and giving them a method of easily powerleveling alt accounts would likely only make things worse.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You'll be hurting people who have crafters leveled on multiple alts (split specializations and gear repairs). So deffo no on that one.

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I have two alts with level 60+ crafters (waiting on the Stormblood crafting beast tribe quests to get them to 70), as well as one with a 50+ crafter who isn't far enough into Heavensward to do the Moogle beast tribe quests. So I should be hurting myself... yet I've actually never had my main craft a hand-in for any of my alts. Leveling alts is only at all hard if you do it when the content is new.

Collectables are to Crafters/Gatherers what Dungeons are to Combat. It is something that you alone can do to get a type of currency, whether that's tomes, or scrips. Being allowed to spam buy all that just gives out free currency, and that completely defeats the point.

I wouldn't have any problem with them doing that, except that it seems like it'd make the whole collectible system pretty superfluous. Why not just change collectable turn ins to HQ only turn ins?

Edit: On second thought it would create a separate market for those items (as opposed to HQ items), which might be a really good thing (active economy = more gil sinks in the form of taxes, which benefit everyone)


Edit2: In response to all the comments defending the sanctity of collectables: that might be the case if they were actually difficult. They arent. Im also kind of curious why theres this notion that gil isnt something that people earn, and that anything bought with gil is inherently meaningless

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because that was RNG. It's reflected in the "poor, good, excellent" states when you do it now. In V1.00, (and I may be mis-remembering this, but good gawd was it terrible) you also lost all the materials early from this IIRC. In the present system, "poor" tends to follow excellent, so you can at least predict the use of "wait" when doing things manually. Macros of course ignore the state, because you're just brute forcing the quality by following specific patterns. Existing crafting has RNG in it, but you can also just get a perfect item every time if you outgear the recipe.

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The progress-related orbs actually aren't reflected in the current material states. The current ones only impact Quality, which is quite different. Crafting works best when there's a balance between progress and quality; as it stands now, without some RNG related to progress, that entire side of the equation is 100% predictable (OK, OK, it's borderline if you're doing the Maker's Mark approach, but still). We should get some randomness back so that crafting is less formulaic.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

That said, the issue really in regards to collectables is that you can just "buy" the materials from the NPC's. So you're basically turning a 1K purchase into a collectable value directly instead of being forced to buy materials off the market board and thus keeping up the gil sinks in the marketplace. If you can just buy the collectable directly, then people can just trade it directly in for scrips/experience to level that crafter without actually doing the work. Now you might go "well what's wrong with that?" and I say everything. If you want to allow this, then you must make it so the NPC's can not sell any precursor materials to producing a collectable.

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I think you were responding to someone other than me with this. I haven't once advocated in this thread for easier crafting, or more gil-sink approaches to leveling it.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

One does not follow the other.
Current practice, buy gear, look up macro, copy macro to game, click button.
Your suggested practice, buy gear, look up the list of skills to craft the item, click lots of buttons.

Removing macros doesn't force people to learn. Also, macros work just fine in combat; the only area they don't work is maximizing DPS, using a macro means you're on a 3sec gcd instead of a 2.5gcd because you can't do less than 1sec intervals. Since crafting doesn't have an equivalent of DPS its an irrelevant comparison to make.

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It doesn't force people to learn, but it helps. Material states will be something you might pay attention to, for instance, as long as you're doing it manually. Case in point, when I was initially crafting my Ala Mhigan HQ gear, I wasn't all that familiar with end-game crafting (I didn't come back until near the end of Heavensward). So, like you said, I looked up rotations - but I did them manually. Along the way, I learned a lot about the 'feel' of the routine, when and how I could alter it, and what many of the abilities I hadn't used before were good for. Is this a guaranteed outcome? Not at all - just as running dungeons doesn't guarantee people learn about combat jobs. But it improves the odds.

That said, I wouldn't favour removing macros entirely. I'd rather see their use locked behind certain conditions, much like Quick Synthesis is. Naturally, this would require SE to make a new interface, "Planned Synthesis" or something along those lines, but such a system could resolve a lot of the irritating factors of macros (the /wait concerns) in addition to requiring more manual crafting.