Inconsistencies with the astrologian questline and the Durendaire family

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EDIT NOVEMBER 2018: The timeline issues have been officially resolved! Please read Fernehalwes' posts #19 and #32 below.

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ORIGINAL POST:

I have a long and tangled set of plot details that I'm puzzling over, relating to:
- the backstory of the astrologian questline
- inconsistencies between game and lorebook information
- character ages
- House Durendaire family members

*SPOILERS incoming for astrologian quests and a certain 'missing' Ishgardian noble*

*also MSQ spoilers to the end of Heavensward/Dragonsong in the comments*

This is going to get very long, sorry. And I don't really have a particular endpoint to this train of thought, rather it's all the information I've got and I'm not sure what to make of it, but I really want to discuss it.

Also I haven't completed every quest in the game so I don't know if there's additional information hidden away in other job quests or something.


The TL;DR version:
- quest dialogue and lorebook give conflicting information on the timeline of past events in the AST questline
- the quest version seems to portray Jannequinard as older than his 'official' age as listed in the lorebook
- inconsistent references to the line of succession for the Durendaire countship
- I am so confused


References I'm using:
- Astrologian quest scripts via Garland Tools Database
- Encyclopedia Eorzea ("the lorebook"):
p.099 - profile for Carvallain
p.169 - Sharlayan history
p.157 - the Ishgardian High Houses; profile for Charlemend
p.243 - Astrologian job page; profiles for Leveva and Jannequinard

EDIT Nov 2018: As of patch 4.5, these quotes will be from an 'older' version of the script and some core information has changed in-game.


Known family members of House Durendaire:

Definite:
- Count Charlemend
- Carvallain, 'missing' firstborn son of the count, age given in-game and in book as 34
- Jannequinard, second-or-third son of the count, age given in EE profile as 32 (but more on that later)
All have a strong family resemblance of dark skin, pink hair and pale (usually luminous white) eyes - also shared by their distant ancestor as seen in the cutscene of Haldrath and his knights.

Unclear:
- Forlemort, "Jannequinard's uncle" but it's not clear whether they are related by blood or marriage. He doesn't seem to have a profile in the lorebook for further information.
- EDIT (May 2018): Portelaine at the Observatorium, referred to as "Lord Portelaine of House Durendaire" in the MSQ Lv44 quest 'Casing the Castrum' but otherwise not discussed. Doesn't resemble the definite family members overall, but does have the same hair colour. No lorebook profile. (Not counted in any of the theorising below this as I only recently picked up that reference, but now that I'm aware of him possibly being a family member I thought I should add him to the list.)

Possible misconception:
Digging back through the lore forum to see if there were any relevant discussions, I found this thread which linked to this page that may be the only attempt people have made at listing all known characters linked to the High Houses? In any case it has listed Drillemont of Whitebrim Front as the count's second son, but this is incorrect - the lorebook confirms that he is not a family member, just employed by them. (There are some other things on that list that I'm not sure are accurate, but haven't played the related quests myself. A topic for another time.)


Uncounted family members and the question of succession:

- (late edit) - at the start of the questline, student astrologian Guillestet tells you that Jannequinard is "second son to the Count de Durendaire".
- in 'Ewer Right', Forlemort refers to Jannequinard as the count's "thir─ah, second son".
- in 'Sharlayan Ascending', Jannequinard says he is "second in line to the countship" and that his family only cares about his older brother - in present tense, and with no mention of said brother being missing for the past twenty years.
- in Stormblood 'East Meets West', Janne is now describing himself as "third in line to [his] father's title".
- meanwhile in the Stormblood MSQ 'Lies, Damn Lies, and Pirates', when Tataru brings it up, she says that the loss of the count's son means he "must look elsewhere for a successor...and the good Lord Jannequinard is one step closer to being the next in line...".
- The lorebook (p.157) says that "the count's firstborn son disappeared twenty years ago, and since then the line of succession has remained unclear. Whether the count will remarry and attempt to produce another heir, or turn to a rather less than ideal candidate, is an oft-discussed topic amongst the nobility."
Overall the book seems to avoid stating family relationships directly - making no mention of Jannequinard in either the general information on House Durendaire or in Count Charlemend's profile, and no mention in Jannequinard's profile of where he fits in the family.

So information seems to vary from one source to the next, though Forlemort's slip of the tongue seems to be the most deliberate stating (to the player) of the family arrangement - three sons, but one isn't counted for some reason. You might assume that would be the missing Carvallain, and perhaps fair enough to not include him in the line of succession if they think he's dead, but it seems stranger to discount him from the family entirely. So what of the unseen second son? Is he also not a suitable candidate for the countship? (And that despite apparently being the family favourite for years, if Janne isn't actually supposed to be referring to Carvallain despite the timeline error?)

Also the lorebook phrasing makes it sound like Carvallain was the count's only son, if his remarrying and having another child is necessary to produce another heir, rather than turning to the two other adult sons he apparently already has?


Jannequinard's age:

The lorebook gives his age as 32, and if he is Carvallain's younger brother then this is forced to be the case (as Carvallain's age has been stated in-game), but it doesn't add up with any of the information given in the astrologian quests.
- when you first join the guild, Jannequinard says "[he has] been a student of the astromantic arts for more than thirty summers"
- the journal entry for the first quest describes him as "the aged astrologian"
- (late edit): student astrologian Guillestet (an adult) describes Jannequinard as being "older than [his] father"
- he spent a year in Sharlayan and considered his stay there "complete" when he left.
- he returned to Ishgard "nearly twenty" years ago - this is stated repeatedly throughout the storyline.

So this information can't add up with his given age, unless he was incredibly young when he started studying (and I doubt that is the case - also Alphinaud and Alisaie are remarkable for having been accepted to the Studium at age 11.)

Also Rufin, Janne's one friend in Sharlayan, is old enough to be married and about to have a child - for what it's worth, he's said to be classmates with Sevestre whose age is listed in the lorebook as 38. So I would assume they might all be roughly the same age.

Meanwhile, the lorebook gives a very different account, possibly trying to correct their timeline snarl without having checked back against the script - saying that Jannequinard was only in Sharlayan for a few months just prior to the evacuation, and was basically left behind.


Leveva's story:

A follow-on effect of the altered timeline is that Leveva's age is inconsistent as well, since it's tied to how long ago Rufin left Sharlayan. The lorebook gives her age as 16 when it's implied in-game to be 19 and then outright stated as "twenty summers" in Stormblood (AST 62), though it's possible that Kyokuho is guessing.

The lorebook also states that her father died a few years after she was born, but that (again) doesn't line up with the information in the quests. She says (in 'Sharlayan Ascending') that he left for Ishgard several months before she was born, and she never met him. Meanwhile in 'Conviction', Jannequinard says that he and Rufin worked together in Ishgard for several months before his death - so that and Leveva's birth must have been around the same time.


The Sharlayan evacuation:

One of the plot points in the astrologian quest is that the Sharlayans withdrew from their Eorzean colony because of a shift in policy and increasing unwillingness to share their knowledge with outsiders, and one of the catalysts for this shift was Rufin being (apparently) murdered by Eorzeans in response to his attempts to share Sharlayan knowledge with them. The lorebook doesn't mention any of this - the section on Sharlayan history (p.169) that they withdrew due to concerns about Garlemald following their invasion of Ala Mhigo.

(This doesn't really tie into any of my other points, but just another point where the AST questline gives different information to other sources.)


Carvallain and the astrologian questline:

The quest "Slings and Arrows" takes us (conveniently minus Jannequinard) to Limsa and an encounter with Carvallain, who has a few hints to drop about his past interesting things to say regarding astromancy:
"It has been many summers, but there was a time when I, too, dreamed of reading the stars. To think, if I had a teacher as lovely as her, my life might have taken a different direction... "
"I only wish I had the time to speak a little longer with the young astrologian. There was something so familiar about her..."

The second line suggests that he met Rufin at some point. (Janne mentions that Leveva reminded him of Rufin even before he knew they were related.) Only evident in hindsight as Rufin isn't mentioned until the second Lv50 quest.

It's also possible that Carvallain studied in Sharlayan too? Gives some potential context to Jannequinard's comment that he took up astromancy "to prove he could be as great as his older brother".

I have to wonder if the future AST quests will be where we ultimately get the resolution to Carvallain's plotline?


My weird alternate theory:
...if by "theory" I can mean the stuff I'd assumed prior to having all the information (lorebook + access to scripts) that actually made more sense than all this convolution.

So from the introductory quest and journal description, that established Jannequinard as being probably somewhere in his fifties (though I revised that down to early forties once it was clear he was fairly young in the 'twenty years ago' plot; any younger and the "aged" description wouldn't fit) despite not looking like it. Additional evidence at this point: a few lines in the script indicating that Quimperain is likewise older than his character model appears, and also that his uncle Forlemort seems an 'old man', logically one generation above 'middle-aged' Jannequinard.

At this point all references to other family members were pretty nebulous since I hadn't (knowingly) met any of them yet, so I think I'd assumed that the count must be older like Forlemort, and when Charlemend turned up I assumed he was Jannequinard's brother. (And then things got muddled because I decided I must have misremembered him being the son of the count, because evidently his brother is the count, and adjusted my grasp on the other facts to match the 'solid' information of his age-as-indicated-by-the-plot. I did want to go back and check the earlier scripts, but didn't know they were available so thought it was out of reach until I got an alt character up to Ishgard!)

At this point I'd finished Heavensward and finally caught on to Carvallain's secret... so he's Charlemend's son, and Jannequinard's nephew. This is my understanding of the character relationships as I work through the later Heavensward quests.

And that's all good and makes sense until my lorebook finally arrives and sends me into theory-meltdown.

I do have to wonder if this could be a salvageable resolution to the continuity snarl, if only because they've been so vague about referring to "the count" and never Charlemend by name? Suppose he's only just taken over the title from his father, and the main script error is that many references to "the count" are in fact to the previous count? (And perhaps an inconsistent translation of third son vs third in line?) Most of the other things fit together then. Jannequinard has one older brother and is/was third in line to his father's title (as he specifically phrases it in AST 63). No need for a "mystery brother" and it makes more sense that Janne is only a 'possibility' for the countship if he isn't directly in the line of succession. The astrologian quests aren't contradicting anything as far as I can think.

I'm not sure if it *really* works, but that's what's been in my head and it's hard to let go of that other understanding of the characters.


So, after all that...

I don't really have a conclusion to this, because I'm not sure what to make of it.

It's left me particularly uncertain how to think of Jannequinard, because the whole way through the quests he's been this "eccentric uncle" character and now, if the lorebook information is to be taken as correct, he's actually in the younger generation of characters - and I have to completely adjust my perception of him.

Usually I would just say the in-game information wins over external information, but synching up with Carvallain's subplot complicates things.

(Is the same person writing all these plot threads, or did someone forget to compare notes? Is it possible that the writers have these two different ideas of the character?)

I'd love to know what other people think of all this. Did you pick up on the inconsistencies? How are you interpreting it? Is there other relevant information that I've missed?

First of all, that is an excellent post. Thank you for writing out all the sources and conclusions you drew from them.

Jannequinard

When I first ran into him, I assumed he was in his 30s-40s. So finding out he was 32 wasn't that much of a stretch. The other thing I noticed about him was that it feels like he exaggerates a lot. And Leveva (and a lot of other people) behave as if he is rather slow on the uptake of ideas/why things in astromancy work the way they do/etc. (his skill at astromany has remained unchanged for 20 years for instance...). You also aren't the first person who he's tried to teach Sharlayan Astrology too. From the looks of things, none of his previous students have stuck with him and it's not until you meet Leveva that you actually learn anything really useful about it. While I wouldn't say he feels like he's lying on purpose, I'd certainly take everything he says with a grain of salt until someone more trustworthy proved him right.

As far as his schooling duration goes... he says there has been astrologians in Ishgard for thousands of years in "Stairway to the Heavens". So I could see him learning Ishgardian astrology first (only concerned with the dragon star) before ever going to the Sharlayan colony. And then exaggerating it so that it sounds like he's been studying astrology (both types) for practically his entire life. This could also explain where Carvallain might have learned it.


House Durendaire Succession

They might have a situation on their hands like House Fortemps does in regards to Haurchefaunt being Edmont's bastard son. So there could be a half-brother between Carvallain and Jannequinard that can't be in the line of succession.

All that said, that is a crazy timeline snarl. It'll be interesting to see what other information get revealed about it...

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

The other thing I noticed about him was that it feels like he exaggerates a lot. [...] While I wouldn't say he feels like he's lying on purpose, I'd certainly take everything he says with a grain of salt until someone more trustworthy proved him right.

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So.... overstating how long he's been studying could explain things, to a degree, but I don't think it could help with the fairly solid "almost twenty years" since he was in Sharlayan, as that's repeated by other characters - Leveva in particular, and the villager at Falcon's Nest who first mentions it...

...or not! I just double-checked that quest script ('Empty Nest') and unless it's another layer of continuity error, there's a chance that there might be *another* astrologian in play?!

He says: "I wouldn't let anyone see me at that gathering. I'd be branded a heretic and sent to Witchdrop. Or worse, they'd just slit my throat and toss me out to the beasts. Like as they did that other astrologian from the Old World." - and when asked how many years ago, "it must have been at least a score...mayhap more."

It stuck out to me from the start that that description doesn't seem to line up with Janne's account of Rufin's death (later in the same quest and again in 'Conviction') that he had been murdered at home in his room, and Janne found him as he was dying.

So...
- the details of the story just changed due to hearsay? (what I had previously assumed)
- Janne is being creative with the truth (possibly to himself as well) to remember a better version of his friend's death?
- or could it be a different person?

Not likely, but possible - the difference in both the description of his death and the slight difference of when it probably happened is enough to make me wonder.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

They might have a situation on their hands like House Fortemps does in regards to Haurchefaunt being Edmont's bastard son. So there could be a half-brother between Carvallain and Jannequinard that can't be in the line of succession.

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That was my initial take on Forlemort's "thir─ah, second son" line, particularly as I did that quest soon after getting introduced to the Fortemps family (where Emmanellain makes a similar slip of introducing himself to you as Edmont's second son, and then has to clarify). Though, as I said, I wasn't yet aware of who the other people might be - and also it stuck in mind as "third/second in line" - and then had the mistaken understanding of Charlemend being the known older brother. (I first picked up on Carvallain just by family resemblance, so briefly figured he might be their brother as well, but then I got up to the Stormblood MSQ that established his age as 34.)

In any case it still doesn't seem to add up with Janne saying that his family put all their expectations on his older brother, and nothing on him?

it's the whole if ur not heir thing then the noble family dun care what the younger ones do as long as the family name doesn't get dirt on it. Like the postmoogle quest with the hair cutting dude is actually like the one in line after his brother that looks just like him for their minor house. It's why Janne has been able to have fun with the ladies til now. Also why post vault Emmanellain feels the weight of his position more and strives to be more like a certain half brother. Up until then he could get away with slacking in his responsibilities.

House Durendaire is the one in charge of The Observatorium, so it is no wonder that their children will be inducted in the art of (Ishgardian) astrology since birth. I think by what Jann said that he's been studying astrology for "more than thirty summers" means that he's been studying astrology (not Sharlayan astrology exclusively) for as long as he remembers.

As for the succession line, I'm more inclined to believe that Jann is actually the third son of the family and originally third in line of succession. When the oldest son (Carvellain) dissappeared, he became second in line. When he started to promote Sharlayan astrology in earnest, I assume House Durendaire was none too happy for it (his uncle was certainly pissed enough) that they rearranged the succession order so Jann now is considerd third in line of succession, at least maybe by House Durendaire. We haven't seen a lot of members of the Four High Houses so I'm not at all surprised if the second son of House Durendaire will remain unseen.

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Originally Posted by RobinMalvin

We haven't seen a lot of members of the Four High Houses so I'm not at all surprised if the second son of House Durendaire will remain unseen.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

it's the whole if ur not heir thing then the noble family dun care what the younger ones do as long as the family name doesn't get dirt on it.

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That certainly seems to be the case from what Jannequinard says - but the question I'm asking isn't whether it's happening, but who the older brother is. Not necessarily a name/appearance (although that makes it easier to think of him as a specific character) but what his circumstances are.

By the astrologian questline, he's the person that the family have put all their hopes on, while (by his account) ignoring Janne and basically not caring if he's a suitable future count or not.

It can't (or at least shouldn't) be Carvallain, if he vanished when Janne was twelve years old - so unless the family has been pinning all their hopes on the idea of him reappearing someday, it would have to be a different brother who's been present for the past twenty years to be considered the future count while Janne is still the 'younger son' and not required to take on responsibilities.

And yet, by the MSQ/lorebook, there's no clear successor to the current count... so where is this older brother now? Have the writers forgotten that he should exist, because he's not a defined character?



Having thought further over it, I don't think the 'mystery brother' could be an illegitimate son, at least not by the astrologian version of events if he's the favoured one - not having checked references, but it seemed to be an unusual case that Haurchefant was as accepted by his family as he was, and he still wasn't officially a family member (unable to use the Fortemps surname) and had to earn his knighthood. And the Durendaires seem to be shown as more old-fashioned and formal versus the 'progressive' Fortemps.

(Also it just seems odd, from a story design point, if both the Fortemps and Durendaire families have three sons and the second one is illegitimate...)



In Emmanellain's case, I don't think he's being held up to more responsibility as a noble - though he is right now first in line to the countship after Artoirel took up the title, it's unlikely he'll ever actually become count, as he'll still be second to any future children Artoirel has. (And I don't know, hypothetically if Artoirel died, could Edmont take up the title again instead of requiring it to pass forward?)

Rather, the recent events have made him want to be a better person - he's badly shaken by Haurchefant's death, of course, but it's the failed peace conference (and the consequences of his actions there) that are the real catalyst for him making a true effort to improve.

Looking through the Dragonsong quest scripts now - his turning point is the quest 'Choices' where he resolves to make his own decisions instead of standing back and letting others make them for him. (Some of what he says is quite similar to Jannequinard in 'Sharlayan Ascending'.)

In any case I'm looking forward to where his story goes from here. I like "checking in" on previous characters to see if they're saying anything new, and I'm a bit disappointed that they haven't updated any of the Ishgardian characters' scripts from the end of Dragonsong until now - it's still the same dialogue they had just after Emmanellain had taken up command at Dragonhead. It seems like it would be a good opportunity to update it at least when we have cleared Stormblood, and have some degree of story progression there - an indication that he's been in the position for a while now, and how he's coping with it.

All this also makes me think - not for the first time - that I'd like to see a plot thread of him becoming good friends with Francel. The opportunity is there, with them both stationed in/near Dragonhead, and presumably in contact. Would be something of a contrast, as (noted in the lorebook) Francel is the one held to higher standards despite being the youngest son, because his older brothers are more interested in their own projects - but more simply, I just want to see poor Francel get an ongoing story instead of being left with nothing to do but grieve for Haurchefant and stand watch over a defence against the dragon horde that's no longer a threat. (Edit to clarify: Not that he shouldn't be grieving - I think it's really beautiful that there's been, so far, an arc from his first reaction to gradual acceptance as you talk to him at different points, and I want to see that continue.)

I don't think the third child has been named. Also they might still be pinning after Carvallain since Tataru did the whole you're going to take us for this price or I'll let your fam know you're alive bit when we went to Kugane.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I don't think the third child has been named. Also they might still be pinning after Carvallain since Tataru did the whole you're going to take us for this price or I'll let your fam know you're alive bit when we went to Kugane.

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And what a spectacular piece of blackmail that was! I loved that scene. (I feel like Stormblood had a lot less enjoyable character-interaction scenes than Heavensward did, but that one stands out. Though perhaps partly because I'd been eagerly waiting to see when Carvallain's past would become a plot point...)

Still, it's back to the same issue at the core of the puzzle - when referenced by sources outside of the AST questline, it seems like Carvallain is/was basically considered the only option for future count, and thus his absence is a major problem for them. (On top of, I hope, genuinely caring about what has happened to him!)


Though, I'm starting to wonder a bit deeper on exactly what Tataru said there, and what can be gathered from it. "Without him, the Count de Durendaire must look elsewhere for a successor...and the good Lord Jannequinard is one step closer to being the next in line..."

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?
- still referring to him only as "Lord Jannequinard" and not mentioning his relationship to the others, leaving it open to potential miscommunication on where he actually fits in the family.
- confirms that there is *someone* in line between Carvallain and Jannequinard, if he's only "one step closer" now
- ...but why mention only Janne by name? (Other than the out-of-game answer of "because he's a known character", though it's fairly unusual to directly reference sidequest characters in the MSQ.) If the other brother is also a bad candidate for count, why not mention him too? If he's suitable, then the count shouldn't need to be looking for a new successor because his second-oldest son is right there - and has been for the last twenty years since the other one vanished.


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Also wondering, I've seen that some posts in this forum do get official responses - what sort of timeframe would that normally take to happen? Should I be hopeful of getting an answer to this?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?

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I am not sure how helpful this really is because even to me it sounds a bit like a "cheap" explantion in this context, but the reason I didnt stumble over that scene as much as you did is probably my german client because in german Tataru says the following:

"Armer Graf Durendaire! Er hat die Hoffnung nie aufgegeben, aber er hat natürlich keine Ahnung, dass sein Sohn noch lebt. Und dann geht es ja auch noch um die Nachfolge seines Hauses. Herr Jannequinard macht sich nun berechtigte Hoffnung, eines Tages das Haus zu übernehmen."

Which translates (more or less literal translation by me) as follows:
"Poor Count Durendaire! He never lost hope but of course he had no idea that is son is still alive! And then there is the question/matter of the succession of his house. Lord Jannequinard has now actual hopes to take over one day."

Its probably not the most colorful but hopefully accurate translation - and its a bit different than the english, I'd say.

"Looking elsewhere" becomes "the line of succession isnt a 100% clear at this point". It sounds a bit more like contemplating options and not so much having to find them first.
"One step closer" becomes "actual hopes" - to me the german text there always read like: They didnt really wanted Janne as Count and didnt expected him to have to take the position, so they sended him off to study (not an uncommon practise for second and third sons in rl noble families in the middle ages). They might still be looking for some "replacment" but Janne can now actually hope to be Count one day.

...not sure if this helps at all, but I found this thread really intresting to read and went back to check what the german dialouge said - and then noticed why that part never bothered me, so I wanted to share the possibility that maybe the english version is just a bit weird when it comes to phrasing!

Another thing to take into account is that Carvallain pretty much has everything any high house would want in an heir (charisma, good sense of how to manage organizations, battle prowess, etc.) while Jannequinard doesn't. In fact, Jannequinard is probably in a situation where most people in his house probably don't want him to take over from his dad who is at least known as a decent politician. There's more then likely a lot of other people in the house other then Jannequinard that would make a better head of house then he would, they just aren't in line for succession.

The note about the German translation is very helpful when it comes to figuring out what atmosphere the scene is supposed to have without the details getting in the way.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

- again, if he has two other adult sons, why is he looking "elsewhere"? (unless it's 'elsewhere' than the very narrow field of one specific person, but it's not the impression I get from that phrasing.) *Can* he even look elsewhere? It's a hereditary title and has to go down the family line, doesn't it?

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For the how, adoption and other relatives (cousins, nephews, etc) are possible options. We don't know exactly how succession works here.

As for the why, any number of reasons. We already know that Janne doesn't really want the title, and his family probably doesn't want to give it to him either (lack of interest, involvement in that Sharlayan nonsense, etc.) If that's also true of the presumed middle son then it's not hard to see why the count would start looking for alternatives.


P.S. Hey Jess :)

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Originally Posted by Vidu

[German translation]

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Thanks for that! So there's variation in the translations and exactly what might be implied by the wording. I did suspect that might be the case, but it's hard to tell without having access to multiple scripts (and the ability to read them!).

I wonder how the translation process works. Do the translators have a solid 'lore reference' to work with or do they just get handed that one story's script, where a deliberately-vague phrasing might get altered in the translation?


Overall I guess we'll get an answer to this eventually, as it's pretty clearly a plotline set to develop in the future, but I hope I don't have to wait for future expansions to find out what's going on... If nothing else, the correct timeline of the quest backstory needs clearing up.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

P.S. Hey Jess :)

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*waves* :D

Oda and Koji are basically the two in-charge of the lore with a few others. Koji has said that each localization team is in charge of the flavors put into the game for their language. Sadly this isn't the first time there has been these kinds of differences. There are times also when the difference is there due to a word having a different meaning or not having an equal in the language it's being translated into. Thankfully answers to these types of questions tend to be answered during a between two ferns bits at fan fests and conventions like Pax.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Koji has said that each localization team is in charge of the flavors put into the game for their language. Sadly this isn't the first time there has been these kinds of differences.

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If this is what the majority of the difference in localization amounts to, then we are really, really spoiled. As far as I can tell, FFXIV has yet to make any major changes to plot development, world building, or lore concepts between localizations. Which is pretty impressive given the volume of words that have to be translated.

Reading up on some of the major differences in FFXV between the Japanesse and English localization is very, very different then reading up on the differences in FFXIV... unfortunately for FFXV...

When I mean flavors it tends to be npc speech bubbles or all the swearing. One major difference is what Ilberd says during our fight with him. For the English version he says sloppy while if I remember right others said he didn't say something so facepalm. Or the bath house in Kugane where that hyur says stupid Roegadens is different in other languages. I do know that in the Japanese version the Anti Tower is named something else because the meaning would be really negative or something. Haurchefaunt is an example where his whole personality is more flamboyant in the Japanese version. Sometimes they come up with a cool name for something that doesn't sound as cool in other languages so again they have to brain storm.

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Originally Posted by ObsidianFire

If this is what the majority of the difference in localization amounts to, then we are really, really spoiled. As far as I can tell, FFXIV has yet to make any major changes to plot development, world building, or lore concepts between localizations. Which is pretty impressive given the volume of words that have to be translated.

Reading up on some of the major differences in FFXV between the Japanesse and English localization is very, very different then reading up on the differences in FFXIV... unfortunately for FFXV...

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I kinda always expected it not to be "to bad" in FFXIV, but I consider myself really lucky to be able to understand both the german and the english version to get different perspectives on storylines and such, even if they're just slight differences.
Translating - or rather localisating - is hard work obviously, since most often you just wont "catch" the meaning with a literal translation or a literal translation isnt even possible... well, I dont think I really need to tell you guys that though...

As far as I am aware though the german version tends to be closer to the japanese one when it comes to Final Fantasy games - I wont vouch for this being the case with FFXIV because I dont have that much insight there (and would expect Koji to have an eye on that to be honest), but most often the english version tends to (slightly) re-write stuff to appeal more to the american audience, while the german version tries to stay closer to the japanese version.

(I really noticed that when playing FFX and did some research back then - my english was pretty bad at that time, but the german version only came with subtitles, not german voice acting. And even I couldnt help notice that a character saying "mhm" couldnt possibly translate to the two lines of subtitles on my screen - or the other way around: A character saying two sentences and the subtitles being one word. I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the idea. Most noticeable is probably the end, when Yuna says "I love you" to Tidus before he disappears. Both in japanese and in german she actually says "Thank you" - but to appeal to the american audience, they apparently wanted to put more weight on that romance... but I disgress here...)

Having gone through ARR again on an alt character, a few things to add on the Durendaire family (because I need to put them somewhere):

• I can see how people would have interpreted Drillemont as a Durendaire family member - being a lord and on equal authority with Lords Francel and Haurchefant, although perhaps that's in their position as outpost commanders rather than nobles. (I'd taken it the other way on my first time through, since Francel is specifically pointed out as a noble so I assumed Haurchefant wasn't, all the way until Heavensward when we met his father the count.)
  
• A lot of minor Coerthan NPCs have white eyes so it can't be used for theorising if random people are relatives (unless they all are)
  
• That said, I did find two other people who could be part of the family:
  
• a knight called Berengeoit at Whitebrim, who boasts about being "born into such a house as mine" and is wearing a Durendaire shield
  
• Lord Portelaine "of House Durendaire" (as someone refers to him in one of the Lv40+ quests) at the Observatorium. Could just be working for them like Drillemont is, but I'm not sure if he was ever referred to as being of the House or only of Whitebrim Front. (Would have to go through it *again* to check, but I do have a second alt that's not there yet....) He doesn't resemble the other family members, not that it's a guarantee of anything. Maybe Forlemort is a blood relative of them after all.
• edit to add: checked the character models in Garland Tools' NPC database, and Portelaine does have the same hair colour as Carvallain and Jannequinard (or rather they all have different shades from the same line of reds). Plus, for what it's worth, he's in the same room as Carrilaut who gives the critical hint about the count's missing son having been attacked by pirates. If the 'unidentified' brother is anywhere in the game already, I think he'd be a safe bet.

I thought there was more information I'd picked up when playing the quest, but couldn't find it later - and indeed there is! Having gotten my second character to Ishgard and signed up to the astrologians' guild, there's some dialogue I couldn't find in Garland Tools because it's not part of the quest, and I'm not sure where else it would be. I looked up the NPC but he doesn't have any quests or dialogue listed.

Guillestet - the guild's "what do you do here?" NPC - gives some background on Jannequinard as well as the guild itself (later replaced with different dialogue and not including this information):
https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...2d4680c549.jpg

Relevant points:

• Jannequinard spent a year in Sharlayan.
• He is the second son of the count (so that's the information you have prior to Forlemort letting it slip that there's a third brother)
• He's "older than [Guillestet's] father", and Guillestet is an adult - so at least around twenty, going by the lorebook saying that's the age Elezen have their 'growth spurt'. And his father is presumably at least forty, or older if the age gap between the counts and their eldest sons (29, 26, 25 years) is typical. Even without that extra lore-trivia, it's clearly implying that Janne is not young and is probably at least in his forties.

So that's the information you get as you're just starting the guild quest and getting your first impression of Jannequinard, backed up by the journal describing him as "aged".

I'm leaning back towards my "details got mistranslated and Janne is actually Charlemend's brother" theory.... but will have to see if my post in the Localisation forum gets an official response.

Greetings!

And apologies for getting to this issue so late! I will not bore you with the usual “OMG IT’S SO BUSY HERE I BARELY HAVE TIME TO EAT MY TACOS” attempt to explain why the reply took so long, and instead move right into explaining what exactly went wrong...

All ye who dare enter: the following is a mess more tangled than a bowl of spaghetti made by Eminem’s mom. For the abridged version, see the bottom of this reply.

Also, this goes without saying but AST SPOILERS AHEAD.

Here we go...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

1. whether the lorebook description of the AST plotline (in Leveva and Jannequinard's profiles) is simply incorrect, or actually intended to overwrite the timeline established in the game

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The lorebook is correct. Hooray! The quest, unfortunately, is littered with several inaccuracies. :( Actually, it’s just a few inaccuracies, but they are repeated over and over (and over and over and over and over). And over. The answers to the following points will make clear what those inaccuracies were, and just how far-reaching they ended up being.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

2. Jannequinard's correct age, given that the game script implies he must be older than his lorebook-given age of 32, possibly by ten or twenty years

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Jannequinard’s correct age is, as the lorebook states, 32.

The confusion here (something that ties to a lot of plot points) is that in the quests, Janne mentions that he studied in Sharlayan (around) 20 summers ago. This is actually off by a few years. The REAL timeline (6th Astral Era) is as follows:

1545: Jannequinnard is born

1557: (Despite some believing they should stay) The Forum decides that it’s time to make the move back to Sharlayan. They begin the slow preparation process (which ultimately takes 5 years).

1560: Jannequinard (at the age of 15) is sent to Sharlayan to be educated. For the next 1.5 years (the lorebook says “for several moons”...when in fact it’s between 16-18 moons--a “big” several, I know) he studies astrology (among other things) at the Studium. Here he meets Rufin and they become friends (Rufin is several years older than Janne, but takes the young noble under his wing).

1561: Rufin marries his school sweetheart and Lady Byrde gives birth to their daughter, Leveva...but dies in childbirth. Worried of her safety in the tumultuous Eorzea, Rufin entrusts care of Leveva to his aunt (who resides in Old Sharlayan).

1562: Sharlayan exodus begins. Janne must return to Ishgard. Rufin decides he’ll go with his young friend (now 17) and together they will spread the word of Sharlayan astrology across the See. He plans on doing this for a year or so, and then returning to Old Sharlayan later to be with daughter. Rufin is killed (at former classmate Sevestre’s* command) before the year is out.

*Sevestre was a classmate of Rufin at the Studium, but was slightly older and had left the Studium by the time that Janne came to Sharlayan, going on to make a name for himself in political circles. During his early years as a politician, he worked hard to quell the voices of those Sharlayans who wished to stay in Eorzea and continue to spread their nation’s knowledge (an action he and the Bibliothecs deemed wrong). Sevestre did NOT use Rufin's death to convince the Forum to approve the exodus, but he DID use it to try and silence those who tried to stop the exodus. He also DEFINITELY used it to convince the Forum that the plebs of Eorzea were not deserving of Sharlayan knowledge.

Leveva’s correct age is 16. Kyokuho is merely spitballing when he claims she is around 20.

SO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Janne was in Sharlayan as far back as 17 years ago...and if you stretch it, 17 could be argued to fall within the realm of “around 20.” Yeah, I know. BS. I fully agree that this is more confusing that it needs to be. I also realize that there are many instances that say “more than 20,” which would be straight up incorrect. A culling of the instances where “twenty” appears (except instances that are supposed to be vague) is required, with the number being changed to 15 or something equivalent. The one instance where Janne says he’s been “a student of the astromantic arts for more than thirty summers,” is supposed to be him embellishing a tad (as is his wont), so this will remain.

Two lines that suggest Sevestre used Rufin's death to convince the Forum to go through with the exodus will also have to be amended.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

- (late edit): student astrologian Guillestet (an adult) describes Jannequinard as being "older than [his] father"

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This will be tweaked as well, to make him almost as old as his father (FFXIV NPCs are surprisingly younger than you (and often I) think).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

3. confirmation of the Durendaire family tree, given that all versions seem to give different accounts of the future succession - in briefest form:
- Jannequinard's alternating references to being second or third in line (and Forlemort's indication there are three brothers)
- AST Lv50: Janne's apparently-not-missing older brother had all the responsibility of being the next count
- Lorebook: succession is unclear and the count will have to remarry to produce another heir
- Is Jannequinard supposed to be Carvallain's brother, or Charlemend's?

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TRUTH:
Charlemend (59) had one son, (now known as) Carvallain (34), who was lost at sea 20 years ago (when only 14) and presumed dead. Dead, however, he was not. He joined the very pirates who had scuttled his ship, quickly abandoning his name and birthright. Why did the pirates welcome him to their crew and not just ransom him? 1. He had deep knowledge of the stars, making him a skilled navigator—something the Kraken’s Arms just happened to be lacking at the time. 2. Carvallain didn’t want to go back.

TRUTH:
Jannequinard is not Count Durendaire’s third son. He is, however, third (or second, depending on whether or not you believe Carvellain will ever come back) in line to the countship.

This was a misinterpretation on my part of the House Durendaire line of succession (I assumed him to be a son). Carvallain was the only true heir (being the firstborn son). So, when he was presumed dead, the House had to define a line of succession in case the count passed before producing another son (which he has yet to do, though at 59, time’s running out). Charlemend’s oldest nephew (Janne's cousin) was positioned first in line, and work began preparing him for rule of the house. The remaining nephews (Jannequinard included) saw a bump in their status (some even earning the title “viscount”), but it was really only the oldest nephew that began getting all the extra attention.

TRUTH:
Chief Astrologian Forlemort does carry Durendaire blood, but is only a distant relative to Jannequinard. Janne refers to him as “mine uncle” or “nuncle” not because Forlemort is actually his father’s brother. It is a more generic term of affection/loose relation...and just happens to be one that Forlemort hates--something definitely not lost on Jannequinard).

A just for giggles:
Lord Portelaine (stationed at the Observatory) is a (low ranking) member of House Durendaire and distant relative to Jannequinard (most likely through marriage).

SO, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
All instances that state Jannequinard is Charlemend’s son will be changed to nephew
All instances that state Jannequinard’s older brother is the heir will be changed to cousin
Instances where Forlemont refers to Janne as his nephew will have to be fixed (to prevent confusing with Charlemend)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

4. Not directly related to the timeline snarl, but at what point in the AST backstory is Carvallain supposed to have run away? Dialogue in the Limsa episode of the AST quest indicates he finds Leveva 'familiar', which suggests he might have met Rufin when he accompanied Janne back to Ishgard. But the timing would have to be fairly tight on that fitting together (he vanished twenty years ago and the AST backstory was "almost twenty" years ago... unless the fifteen-years-ago lorebook account is now supposed to be canon).

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Before Carvallain ran away from his home, he was the heir to the Durendaire line, and therefore was expected to learn all manner of subjects. As House Durenadaire was in charge of the Observatory in the southern highlands, Carvallain spent several moons studying Ishgardian astrology (learning of the Dragon Star and whatnot). Unlike the his other studies, he enjoyed it greatly, and this was where he learned of navigation...and ties into his line: “It has been many summers, but there was a time when I, too, dreamed of reading the stars.” So, AST timeline-wise, this would have been long before even Janne traveled to Sharlayan to begin his studies. As for Janne finding Leveva familiar, well...let’s just say that he does.

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tl;dr

★ Jannequinard is 32 (not in his 50s)
★ Jannequinard started stydying in Sharlayan 17 years ago and left 15 years ago (not 20)
★ Leveva is 16 (not 19 or 20)
★ Jannequinard is not second/third son of House Durendaire, but second/third in line of succession (he is actually the son of the current count’s sibling = nephew)
★ Forlemort is a blood-member of House Durendaire, but only loosely related to Jannequinard
★ Carvallain does not know Rufin. He studied astrology at the Observatorium before he ran away from home

Conclusion:
The lore book is fine, but several IDs over the series of AST quests will have to be changed. 40 IDs have been tweaked so far, but I will have our QA team check the quests again, as well, so that number may rise. Many of those have been critical, but some have been adjusted simply to make things a bit clearer.

/phew

First, I would like to apologize for the mass confusion here. The mistakes are mine and mine alone, and I am grateful that with FFXIV being an online game with frequent updates, I get the rare opportunity to amend them.

And second, I would like to give a MASSIVE, MASSIVE thanks to Iscah who took the time to document all the inconsistencies (in exact detail), and continued to press the issue until we finally had the opportunity to address it. Your work documenting everything made my job confirming the mistakes all that smoother. Your passion is truly appreciated and this contribution will not be forgotten.

If there is anything that we didn’t manage to address, please let us know, and we’ll look into it!

Thank you again!

Fernehalwes :cool:

(Great Oschon's Raven, Iscah keeping a meticulous inventory of this one finally paid off!)

WHEW! I knew it'd gone askew and started to snowball and I knew Iscah had great gasp on it, but to unpack all that must have been a journey (and a few internal email chains).

Thank you as always writing teams, for continuing to see threads like these in a CHALLENGE ACCEPTED kind of light, and spending precious dev. time on what I'm sure is increasingly intricate maintenance of the high standard you've all set for the world setting.


EDIT: One nuance I'm unsure about if anyone has any better information while I go digging: the Studium is (almost?) always referred to as being geographically situated in Old Sharlayan. There was also a branch in the colony, too, at the time, then, yes? (This came up not two days ago when I was asked about Y'mhitra being a "native" of Sharlayan and whether the Y tribe had relocated to the Old World, lol.)

((Note to Self: If it was called the Forum back then, pretend Y'shtola didn't call it the Sharlayan Council in Never the Twain Shall Meet from now on and fix all references to it based on that citation.))

Thankyou so much for replying and resolving it! It's good to finally have one straight version of events. (And I've got an alt character that I can use to play through that questline again and get the altered version of the dialogue.)


You've also 'answered' something that I'd wondered but never got around to asking - "Carvallain" is not his birth name, is that right? Evidently he's borrowed the surname of Ser Gorgagne, but it wasn't clear whether his forename is an alias as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

(FFXIV NPCs are surprisingly younger than you (and often I) think).

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Only when the lorebook throws my game-based grasp of the timeline out the window! But do be careful with Guillestet's age - he can't be that young without stretching the previous "Elezen don't mature until around age 20" information that explains why Alphinaud and Alisaie still look like children.

(Though it came up in another discussion recently that Carvallain is in the "fifteen years ago" plot of 1.0, where he must be only nineteen, so that's already pushing it a little. I'm sure there's some variation in what age they actually mature, of course.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Why did the pirates welcome him to their crew and not just ransom him? 1. He had deep knowledge of the stars, making him a skilled navigator—something the Kraken’s Arms just happened to be lacking at the time. 2. Carvallain didn’t want to go back.

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The other reason here would be that he's already run away and pretending to be "not a noble", correct? (Or at least a minor noble rather than direct heir to a High House.) So they might not have a reason to think he's worth ransoming anyway - at least to a higher value than hiring a navigator, I suppose!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

The one instance where Janne says he’s been “a student of the astromantic arts for more than thirty summers,” is supposed to be him embellishing a tad (as is his wont), so this will remain.

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It's entirely up to you, but I think that would still throw my estimate out by a few years if there isn't anything to establish it is an embellishment. Would "almost thirty years" still be enough of an exaggeration? That would still be bending the truth (say, counting "the start of his education" from receiving a star globe as a third nameday present!) but not putting a player's initial guess so far from the correct number, when it's all the information they have to go on.

(Doubly so when NPC appearances aren't unique enough to tell the person's intended age, and you need that context of dialogue to establish whether they are "as old as they look" or intended to be younger/older.)



Reading through the scripts again now on Garland Tools for anything else worth mentioning.

Another thing I've noticed that isn't related to the rest of the tangle, but is still "character ages askew in the AST storyline" and certainly worth looking at if you're editing the scripts... Quimperain seems to vary between being referred to as old or young, and with more quotes than I thought now that I'm actually looking for them.

Quote:

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From 'Hanging In the Balance':
Leveva: Bandits have kept poor Quimperain busy, harrying our camp since we arrived. I do believe the old man enjoys the excitement, however.

From 'Slings and Arrows':
Jannequinard: If it is Lady Leveva you seek, she just left with Quimperain for Limsa Lominsa. And if you ask me, those two have grown awfully close as of late. I had best keep an eye on them, lest that honey-tongued manservant of mine forget his station.

Celie (with Quimperain as hostage): Ha ha! Lay down them weapons, or I'll cut the old man a new grin under his chin!
...
Quimperain: Wait... I know you...
Celie: Someone has a good memory for being so on in years.

From 'Sharlayan Ascending':
Jannequinard: Ever since the affair with the false Temple Knights, Quimperain has been acting more...I don't know...boldly? It is as if he has to will himself to even address me as “milord.” Do you think the Lady Leveva is becoming a bad influence on the lad?

Quimperain: I shall escort the lady back to the Athenaeum, and hold her hand if I must...ah, to ensure that she doesn't wander off again, of course.

From 'The Hands of Fate':
Quimperain: A man my age should not have lasted a half bell in that last battle.

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Also "just in case", depending on how the game text looks on your end and whether you're seeing the 'battle quotes' (which are included on Garland Tools) in the same place as the rest of the script: in the battle instance for 'Spearheading Initiatives' there's a line "I am sorry, Father..." that I assume is for Jannequinard if he gets KOed. So that will need updating according to the changes you listed.

And some typos (of the 'not spell-checkable' kind):
From 'Slings and Arrows', it mentions the "Bloody Member" rather than the "Missing Member".
From 'Sharlayan Ascending', Janne refers to Forlemort being "not the first relative who has plotted my timely demise". I think that is supposed to be "untimely", although I suppose it's not entirely out of character for him to make the error himself, and the text be a correct delivery of his incorrect wording.


...and I do have to ask about Janne's comment in 'Loved By the Sun' that Leveva is "far too old for [his] tastes. Or was it young?" (which is somewhere between 'odd statement' and 'unpleasant implications' given Leveva's age...)



Also while we're clearing up facts about the characters, and if my question on it hasn't made the cut for "things to be addressed in the Fan Fest panel", could you clarify Mordyn's comment about "Carvallain's bride"?


And a terminology query - is it supposed to be "Count de [Surname]" or simply "Count [Surname]"? Or are both forms acceptable? The script uses both at different times.


Thankyou again for all the work you do, and sorry for the piling on of more questions! I really appreciate getting the reply!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's entirely up to you, but I think that would still throw my estimate out by a few years if there isn't anything to establish it is an embellishment. Would "almost thirty years" still be enough of an exaggeration? That would still be bending the truth (say, counting "the start of his education" from receiving a star globe as a third nameday present!) but not putting a player's initial guess so far from the correct number, when it's all the information they have to go on.

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Jannequinard: Why, it'd be no exaggeration to say I was born with a silver Star Globe in my hand, such is my passion for the science!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Also while we're clearing up facts about the characters, and if my question on it hasn't made the cut for "things to be addressed in the Fan Fest panel", could you clarify Mordyn's comment about "Carvallain's bride"?

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Every other language only says "Carvallain's out on the terrace." so I've struggled with that one for a while.

Would be a bummer if he was already married, though. I keep joking that one day his secret will out and the Durendaires will try to drag him back into Ishgardian politics and he'll have to get himself permanently disowned and exiled to be free of it...by, say, bringing Rhoswen home to mama.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Would be a bummer if he was already married, though. I keep joking that one day his secret will out and the Durendaires will try to drag him back into Ishgardian politics and he'll have to get himself permanently disowned and exiled to be free of it...by, say, bringing Rhoswen home to mama.

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I've seen you write that elsewhere, and it is a fantastic mental image. (You've got me laughing again just thinking of it!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Jannequinard: Why, it'd be no exaggeration to say I was born with a silver Star Globe in my hand, such is my passion for the science!

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Fair enough, you could spin the line either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I've seen you write that elsewhere, and it is a fantastic mental image. (You've got me laughing again just thinking of it!)

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Here you go Iscah... it just might have been this thread... I think I was responding to Moose's hilarious yet vivid idea about how the dinner table theatrics would unfold if Carvallain brought Rhoswen home.

And thanks again for the extensive and very detailed clarifications Ferne... Iscah's determination in listing all the contradicting facts were indeed a great catalyst in getting this resolved.

I should add a big thankyou to Garland Tools for making the quest scripts accessible! Otherwise I'd have to get through all the gameplay again to re-read the dialogue, and store it all as PS4 screenshots, and the whole thing would have been a lot harder.


Also I'm curious, does this sort of script update get recorded in patch notes like all the gameplay updates? I assume so, since it's a lot of information to get changed after people have already played through the quest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Another thing I've noticed that isn't related to the rest of the tangle, but is still "character ages askew in the AST storyline" and certainly worth looking at if you're editing the scripts... Quimperain seems to vary between being referred to as old or young, and with more quotes than I thought now that I'm actually looking for them.

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This has actually been driving me crazy. He's using the same face as the 27-35 year old Elezen NPCs but keeps getting called an old man...I've been very confused.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmemeAmeklin

This has actually been driving me crazy. He's using the same face as the 27-35 year old Elezen NPCs but keeps getting called an old man...I've been very confused.

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I don't mind it too much in general - it means there's more variety in character faces than having everyone of a particular age having a particular face - as long as it's established in dialogue and kept consistent. (Which in this case it hasn't.)

I'd assumed the same thing was in play for Jannequinard of course, and there's also at least one solid example: Baurendouin de Haillenarte, who is 56 but looks younger (literally the same character model is used for 28-year-old Aurvael) - but that doesn't matter because he's first introduced as Stephanivien's father, so there's no question that he's intended to be older than he appears.

I guess it comes back to being like older RPGs where the characters were just small pixelly sprites and you'd have no chance of telling a character's age from their appearance. We've moved on in graphics but it comes down to the same choice - they can use the "young" character model, the "generic adult" or the "old man". Anything more subtle is stated in dialogue and the player has to apply that knowledge on top of what they actually see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Leveva’s correct age is 16. Kyokuho is merely spitballing when he claims she is around 20.

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Time to burn the fanart internet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Greetings!

And apologies for getting to this issue so late! I will not bore you with the usual “OMG IT’S SO BUSY HERE I BARELY HAVE TIME TO EAT MY TACOS”

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I think what everyone wants to know is, what kind of tacos were you eating? I'm super curious and hungry.

Thank you for the follow up (I knew there would be more...there's always more, especially when a bug is so interconnected with so many quests). This will probably be my last reply for a while (as it is now the week before Fan Fest), but I wanted to address the follow up questions before my life goes on lockdown once more!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's entirely up to you, but I think that would still throw my estimate out by a few years if there isn't anything to establish it is an embellishment.

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After writing the first reply last Friday, I actually went in and tweaked a few more lines, this “thirty summer” passage being one of them. While I do want to create the sense of Janne being a somewhat spoiled braggart by tossing out a flippant remark about how long he’s had his eyes to the stars, you are most likely correct that stating an actual number (especially so early) is bound to create some confusion. I changed the line to “Myself, I have been a student of the astromantic arts for more summers than I can count,” so that we could break out the “Why Not Both?” meme.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Quimperain seems to vary between being referred to as old or young

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Quimperain is supposed to be old...but old as a soldier...not as a wizened coot. He does have several years on Janne, however. As for Leveva, Quimperain has taken a liking to the young astrologian, but more as a daughter rather than a lover. Janne (a notorious playboy, himself) is merely ribbing Quimperain by (continuously) suggesting that his growing fondness with Leveva is anything more than a fatherly love. Calling him an “old man” is also another form of jest, as Janne positively enjoys getting under Quimperain’s skin (though, Janne’s respect for Quimperain’s service and loyalty does grow through Janne’s arc).

I might also mention something about the lack of Elezen models falling squarely twixt Orlando Bloom and Louisoix. But I won’t.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

there's a line "I am sorry, Father..." that I assume is for Jannequinard if he gets KOed.

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You are correct...however, as I was about to change it, I stopped to think about Janne’s relationship with his actual father. As far as I know, there is no animosity there...so I would want to believe that faced with the approaching lights of the Great Beyond, even Janne would think of his father and how he disappointed him...rather than his uncle who didn’t really care that much about him until his own son flew the coop. So yeah, I’ll probably keep this one, if only to allow a glimpse a one of Janne’s (well-hidden) redeeming factors.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And some typos (of the 'not spell-checkable' kind)

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Done and done. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Iscah

and I do have to ask about Janne's comment in 'Loved By the Sun'

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Not really. :p This was another line meant to bring light to Janne’s playboy lifestyle. It does, however, add to the age confusion, so I’ve tweaked it a bit.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Mordyn's comment about "Carvallain's bride"?

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Whoa! This is a mistranslation from way back during the 2.0 crunch (ah, the memories...). Thank you kindly for bringing it to my attention. The town NPC lines were one of the last things to be completed right before our data freeze, and while passed through QA for EN errors, there was not enough time to crosscheck for translation errors (as quests and whatnot were given higher priority with time running out).

(As is reflected in the other languages), the JP merely states that Carvallain is the Elezen out on the balcony who runs the business...while also serving as captain of the Kraken’s Arms.

So where did the “bride” part come from? As I did not do the original translation, I can only guess, but it appears that the JP uses the term 旦那 (danna) to refer to Carvallain. This word usually means “husband,” but can also simply mean “man” or “leader,” depending on the situation. My best guess is that an over-quick glance at the source text coupled with a sleep-deprived brain and a longing desire to go home resulted in...well, what’s there now. I’ll fix this with for 4.5, as well.

Thank you!!

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And a terminology query - is it supposed to be "Count de [Surname]" or simply "Count [Surname]"? Or are both forms acceptable?

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Technically, it is supposed to be

the Count Forename de Surname
Or
the Count de Surname

Count Forename is also accepted, but usually not in ultra-formal situations.

Count Surname would be technically incorrect, but if it was someone who wasn’t from Ishgard saying it, this could be chalked up to them not fully understanding the rules.

I will do a sweep and see if there are any to be found in the script and update them for 4.5. As for anything in a post by me here on the forums...you’ll have to forgive me!

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

I think what everyone wants to know is, what kind of tacos were you eating?

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Japan does many things well. Sushi, ramen, flying rainbow cats, pineapples, apples, and/or pens. But there is one thing that I cannot forgive...and that is this country’s bordering-on-blasphemous mishandling of tacos. The “more ketchup than salsa” salsa. The “shredded processed dairy product” cheese. The “looks like lettuce, so it’s the same thing, right? RIGHT?” cabbage. The “we didn’t have any seasoned ground beef so how ‘bout this Canadian bacon?” cured pork product. The “couldn’t find any sour cream, what else is white and creamy?” mayonnaise topping.

Alright, alright. That may have been an extreme example. There are actually a few decent places over here to satisfy my craving for tacos...though most of the time I just make my own. A big tub of Costco-bought taco seasoning brought back from my last trip home has seen me through some super dark times.

Gah! Why am I waxing poetic about tacos!? Back to Fan Fest prep! BYE!

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Gah! Why am I waxing poetic about tacos!?

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Why not? Tacos are awesome.

Also, you're awesome. Just saying.

Thanks again for the replies! I hope your Fan Fest preparation is going smoothly.

I found one more line (that might be fine to leave as-is) - I remembered that some of the goldsmith leves reference Jannequinard (requesting various types of star globes), and Charting the Trends mentions it's being paid for with his "poor father's coin". Which probably still works, but depends whether you want it to refer to Janne's father or the count.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

...so that we could break out the “Why Not Both?” meme.

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I think you just have tacos on your mind.

But yeah, the "more summers than I can count" line works. (Plus for a second-time player is a wide-open target for "yes, because you haven't yet worked out how to count without doing it on your fingers"...)

That reminds me of another question about phrasing though - using X 'summers' or 'winters' rather than years. Any particular logic to which season is used, or just whichever works poetically in the situation?

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Quimperain is supposed to be old...but old as a soldier...not as a wizened coot. He does have several years on Janne, however. As for Leveva, Quimperain has taken a liking to the young astrologian, but more as a daughter rather than a lover. Janne (a notorious playboy, himself) is merely ribbing Quimperain by (continuously) suggesting that his growing fondness with Leveva is anything more than a fatherly love. Calling him an “old man” is also another form of jest, as Janne positively enjoys getting under Quimperain’s skin (though, Janne’s respect for Quimperain’s service and loyalty does grow through Janne’s arc).

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That's what I figured. Veteran knight but still young enough to qualify for the "Orlando Bloom not Louisoix" character model.

And for the most part I took his defence of Leveva as more of a chivalrous thing, but the remark about holding her hand was a bit harder to interpret that way.

I'm not sure that we ever see Janne directly ribbing him about Leveva though - at least the lines I'd found seem to be him talking to us directly, while Quimperain isn't present to object. (And referring to him as a "lad" - again while he's not present - seemed a little odd in any case, but even more so if Janne is actually younger than him.)

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

You are correct...however, as I was about to change it, I stopped to think about Janne’s relationship with his actual father. As far as I know, there is no animosity there...so I would want to believe that faced with the approaching lights of the Great Beyond, even Janne would think of his father and how he disappointed him...rather than his uncle who didn’t really care that much about him until his own son flew the coop. So yeah, I’ll probably keep this one, if only to allow a glimpse a one of Janne’s (well-hidden) redeeming factors.

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That makes sense, and yes it seems better that way.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Whoa! This is a mistranslation from way back during the 2.0 crunch (ah, the memories...)

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Aha, I thought it seemed strange! But of course it's one of those things you need to actually know the character in order to recognise it as strange, so it's harder to catch the error just by getting someone to proofread the text.

Plus at the point that players are reading it, they've probably just arrived in Limsa for the first time themselves and don't know the character either. (Though I do remember being puzzled that there wasn't an Elezen woman with Carvallain out on the balcony!)

I think I only picked up on it when I started an alt character and decided I'd talk to all of the people in town again.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Count Surname would be technically incorrect, but if it was someone who wasn’t from Ishgard saying it, this could be chalked up to them not fully understanding the rules.

I will do a sweep and see if there are any to be found in the script and update them for 4.5. As for anything in a post by me here on the forums...you’ll have to forgive me!

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Thanks for the explanation! I can't think where I've seen the incorrect form used, just that it's come up somewhere (not necessarily the AST quests) and it was enough to make me uncertain which was the correct form when I've been writing about lore stuff. Now I'll know for future use. :)

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

[Guillestet's line] will be tweaked as well, to make him almost as old as his father (FFXIV NPCs are surprisingly younger than you (and often I) think).

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Coming back to this, because thinking it over... aside of stretching the limits of "almost" to say 32 is almost as old as (I-can't-work-it-to-be-less-than-)40ish*, it just seems odd for it to be pointed out as something remarkable in the first place.

None of the other young nobles are mentioned to be married or betrothed. We get no mention of romance from any characters besides Emmanellain's doomed attempts to flirt with Laniaitte.

And (unless it's a cultural thing) 32 doesn't seem remarkably old to be still unmarried and flirting with 'young maidens' - though depending just how young, I suppose.


* From the Elezen characters for we know the ages of both father and eldest child, the age gaps are 29 (Fortemps) (also Handeloup and his daughter), 26 (Haillenarte), 25 (Durendaire), 24 (Leveilleur). And will be similar gaps for any future children of the young-adult characters.

Of course there are going to be outliers, and in wrangling the statement to fit you could suppose that Guillestet is an early-maturing 18-year-old and his father was unusually young, but it's still a stretch to make his father's age anything below 40 - and that's when I know what it "needs to be" rather than making an educated guess based on the other information.

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

★ Jannequinard is not second/third son of House Durendaire, but second/third in line of succession (he is actually the son of the current count’s sibling = nephew)

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"Sibling" seems an oddly vague way of phrasing it - and it seems to me that it would have an impact on his standing in the family whether it's his mother or father that's the count's sibling. (Given that only sons seem to be 'counted', eg. Francel being "fourth son" but actually fifth child.)

By that logic I'd guess EITHER he'd have to be son of the count's brother to be placed fairly high in the order of succession, OR the count only has sisters and that's why it's only Janne and his cousin(s), with no uncles or his father getting higher priority. Or maybe that's because his older male relatives have died fighting the war against the dragons.

Anyway, it seems like it should make a difference - would he get dismissed as a less important family member if his claim to the countship is "only" from his mother?

So patch 4.5 is out and I can see the changes have been implemented for the AST script (looking on Garland Tools) and Mordyn (checked in-game)... but Guillestet is still referring to Jannequinard as "second son of the count" and his time in Sharlayan as "almost twenty" years ago, although it does have the change Fernehalwes mentioned earlier of saying that Janne is "almost as old" rather than "older" than his father.

I've just glanced through the scripts as I was planning to play through it with my other character.

I did notice that Leveva still says (in 'Sharlayan Ascending') that she never met her father, but the clarified timeline shows that she was born before he left for Ishgard. While having truly "met" him at that age is debatable, perhaps something like "I was too young to have any memories of him" would be better, while making the order of events clearer?


Oh, and funnily enough after querying the correct format for referring to the count, the updated script for 'Ewer Right' now has this:

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FORLEMORT
And Jannequinard. Perhaps this will finally spell his downfall. He has only been allowed to continue this nonsense because he is harmless. Too caught up in the luxury of being in line to Count de Durendaire's title to actually put forth any real effort in furthering his, ahem, “cause.”

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Needs a "the". ;)

But I did find what had probably confused me about that in the first place - early in Heavensward, I think when we've just arrived at the manor for the first time, Alphinaud addresses Edmont as "Count Fortemps". So that fits in with the "foreigner not fully understanding the rules" thing that Fernehalwes mentioned.


Also the updated dialogue in 'East Meets West' made me laugh, after all the back-and-forth about where he is in the line of succession.

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JANNEQUINARD
Why would I be jealous? I am of House Durendaire! Third in line to my uncle's title! Or was it second?

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Also, not directly related to the AST quests, but I've been running early-Heavensward sidequests with my alt character, and a couple of things stood out.

The quest The Best-Laid Plans (presumably designed to direct players to the two guilds so they'll find the job quest starting-points) has Jannequinard seeming a bit out of character, explaining that the astrologians observe the stars for signs of Dravanian activity without so much as a hint of his usual enthusiasm for the Sharlayan sort, or an attempt to invite us to the guild... so is he just in "boring job mode" answering queries to the help desk, or is this dialogue not really meant for him? Maybe for Guillestet who says he's on reception duty? (Or just written by someone who didn't actually look at Janne's normal personality in the AST quest and is using him as a generic NPC.)

For comparison, when you get sent to Skysteel Manufactory for the second step of the quest, you speak to Fromelaut rather than Stephanivien... but on the other hand at both locations you're talking to "the guy at the desk".

And very tangentially on the subject of "incorrect information about family relationships", for the Haillenartes rather than the Durendaires, Looking to the Future seems to imply that Laniaitte is a ward of House Haillenarte rather than a daughter.




Also I have to say the changes seem very under-announced - all that I've seen is a single line in the Resolved Issues that "dialogue for certain NPCs was incorrect". Maybe it's an overall policy that script changes aren't announced in detail, but anyone who was in the middle of playing the AST quests might be rather confused right now.