Make Hall of the Novice completion required for entering Sastasha

There's no reason for a new player to enter a dungeon if they don't know what their role in a party is and how to perform it at an adequate level, they're supposed to be done before you enter your first dungeon anyway so I don't see the problem with making them required.

I know the story already directs you to the Hall of the Novice but it doesn't explicitly tell you to actually go in and do the lessons, so a new player (who might even be skipping dialog and not know what they're doing there in the first place) might have no idea what to do there and be on their way.

I would consider a couple of changes.
1) Make Hall of the Novice level 10
2) Require it to be complete to enter either a guildhest or a dungeon

Potentially this could be retroactively applied as well (for those doing the jump potion, they still have to do it), so as to make sure everyone has done it and at least up to speed. I mean for those like me who have played plenty MMOs before this, it'd just be a minor sidestep to get it done and back into dungeons. I shouldn't fail any of them so it should be a quick and painless experience for me.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I would consider a couple of changes.
1) Make Hall of the Novice level 10
2) Require it to be complete to enter either a guildhest or a dungeon

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That would require some other changes.
As it is tanks can't complete Hall of the Novice until they have done their level 15 class quest - because one of the tank exercises in Hall of the Novice requires the use of the skill they learn from that class quest. (The skill is the tank's ranged attack, used for pulling.)

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That would require some other changes.
As it is tanks can't complete Hall of the Novice until they have done their level 15 class quest - because one of the tank exercises in Hall of the Novice requires the use of the skill they learn from that class quest. (The skill is the tank's ranged attack, used for pulling.)

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That's a fair point. Perhaps then it would be worth starting guildhests at level 15 then? As well as making it so Shield Lob/Tomahawk are unlocked once you get the level (rather then completing the class quest). Or maybe make SL/TH a reward from the level 10 class quest (same as guildhest starts), and give a tip in the HotN to do your class and job quests, as it's very important (how you'd lock the DPS/healer ones behind a class quest though I don't know)?

I'll add that it also helps ensure that people are well geared when they go in there. I mean, you can't make them actually put the gear on, but at least you're giving it to them.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

(how you'd lock the DPS/healer ones behind a class quest though I don't know)?

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The same way they did it for tanks. The difference is there'd be no specific lesson to be learned from that other than telling people to do their gosh-darned class quests, whereas tanks needed it for a more immediate reason

When you say 'at an adequate level' do you mean basic logic of group content? Or expecting intermediate level performance?

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Originally Posted by CainCrimson

When you say 'at an adequate level' do you mean basic logic of group content? Or expecting intermediate level performance?

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I think basic knowledge of gameplay should be enough... after that each dungeon gives you a little more mechanics wise for ARR dungeons anyway... but learning how to not stand in Orange and healers shouldn't try tanking should be taught before actually having to do so in group content.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

I'll add that it also helps ensure that people are well geared when they go in there. I mean, you can't make them actually put the gear on, but at least you're giving it to them.

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There is a quest early on that requires you to have an ilevel of 5, that probably a lot of people didn't even notice. I don't think there are anymore gearchecks until lvl 50 hard content. They could put more of that along the way just so people are mindful of it.

I guess most people don't do the novice stuff because they don't realize what it rewards. The ring alone is worth the time spent.

Bad players will always be bad players. Forcing them into a tutorial won't change that. The only ones to benefit from this are the ones that will have voluntarily gone through training without the mandate.

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Bad players will always be bad players. Forcing them into a tutorial won't change that.

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Yes, but.

When the new tank starts doing a single target rotation and ignoring the other two mobs, it won't be the first time someone has told him to use Flash/Overpower to get hate on everything, and maybe he'll listen instead of ignoring it, because it sounds vaguely familiar from the Hall of the Novice lesson on AoEing.

Some people will ignore advice simply because they're jerks, and we can't do anything about them. But some will ignore advice because it's new, or because maybe they think the advice the game gives is not how players actually do things, or conversely they think a player is giving advice that isn't actually how the game works. But when the game and a player both give the same advice, they might listen.

I agree with this, especially on the gear front. A friend of mine ran Sastasha the other day through DF and got someone with all level 1 gear equipped. Healing for 60hp.

Locking Satasha access behind it makes sense imo, and I fully support that, but what really needs to happen is this:

The Hall of the Novice should be a full tutorial, complete with a small walkthrough of one's job and abilities so that they know the basics. Then they could get into what's already there, aka the basic mechanics of group content. They'd obtain an adequate gear set too to get them on the right track.

Why? at lvl ~15 you have barely any skills, if you haven't figured out what to do by then, i'm sorry but nothing is going to help you. Besides guildhests provide a better training than the Halls ever did, hence the purpose of them, was to get you prepared.

It'd be pointless, people speed through tutorials & Hall is no different I myself speed through it not reading anything it said just waiting for when get to actually do what wanted. No amount of Tutorials you add will ever EVER get those who don't want do them to pay them attention even forced they'll speed through them like I did with it.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

It'd be pointless, people speed through tutorials & Hall is no different I myself speed through it not reading anything it said just waiting for when get to actually do what wanted. No amount of Tutorials you add will ever EVER get those who don't want do them to pay them attention even forced they'll speed through them like I did with it.

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Except that the Hall forces a tank to Flash/Overpower from the proper position to hit all targets. There is no way to advance past that lesson if you don't read what is expected of you and do it correctly.

I wish they had the tutorial when I first started. As my 1st MMO, I only chose the role of the axe wielder, since it's my favorite weapon. How I learn to regret that decision. I had no idea what a tank was. It's responsibility. I was awful and this was pre-vote kick. Had that been in place, I would've been booted many times. The Hall explained everything I didn't know at the time. It is a useful tool as I've gone through it with both Tank & DPS. I should go through it as healer, but I don't ever plan on being one. Maybe it'll give an idea what they go through, though.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Why? at lvl ~15 you have barely any skills, if you haven't figured out what to do by then, i'm sorry but nothing is going to help you. Besides guildhests provide a better training than the Halls ever did, hence the purpose of them, was to get you prepared.

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It's very hard to learn the basic mechanics *just* by doing multiplayer content. Hall of the Novice was incredibly helpful for me - the only time the game ever stopped and properly said "this is how to use your skills effectively" instead of just leaving me to work it out on my own. The tank course was especially valuable.

Edit to add: it’s also the only time the game has explained dungeon mechanics and how to respond to them!

They should get rid of Hall of the Novice, and fold it into a single, solo-player dungeon with AI players. Have each boss teach a different aspect of playing. It will be much less boring than the hall, and you can also gear the new players up as you do it.

I'm down with this.

The whole "bads will be bads" excuse doesn't really fly all the time for the first dungeon of the game.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They should get rid of Hall of the Novice, and fold it into a single, solo-player dungeon with AI players. Have each boss teach a different aspect of playing. It will be much less boring than the hall, and you can also gear the new players up as you do it.

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Guildhests, what you are asking for is guildhests

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Guildhests, what you are asking for is guildhests

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Hests aren't solo, and they really don't teach you anything about your job. Many of the situations they have never pop up in gameplay, and a lot of times you are best off just ignoring the adds in any hest and burn down the boss.

The OP idea is great. But in practice, new players will run their dungeons mostly with players doing their roulette and wanting to rush. So even if they would learn the right way to play thanks to the Hall of Novice won't change that sadly.

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Originally Posted by Tinibou

The OP idea is great. But in practice, new players will run their dungeons mostly with players doing their roulette and wanting to rush. So even if they would learn the right way to play thanks to the Hall of Novice won't change that sadly.

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Again, that’s exactly why it’s a good thing to have the concepts explained in advance, because once you’re in the dungeon it can be too fast-paced to understand what’s going on. It’s very different to a solo game where you progress at your own pace and can learn by trial and error.

I am very much on board with this, particularly after my last painful run of Sastasha. The Hall gear is good enough to take you through enough dungeons/levels until you get better drops or quest rewards, for the lazy novice, and as I recall, forces you to learn the basics of each role, even if you decide to skim/ignore the unskippable text. It also gives you an idea of group dynamics, however poorly that may be carried out by NPCs. Playing on a controller, I know I have difficulty explaining anything in a dungeon even when newbies are receptive to advice, since they'll just rush off before I can get a word out. It's just a pity that this likely won't help older players levelling new roles.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Hests aren't solo, and they really don't teach you anything about your job.

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Which is true, seeing how MANY people don't pay any attention to what the pop-up text boxes say, like not killing the gil turtle (Failed that many times in 2.X because of people just zerging it down), as well as players ignoring the one where you have to kill all 5 of the enemies right after one another to prevent them from re-spawning.

Though the Hall of the Novice should be re-worked a bit more and be more informative without huge blocks of text, possibly a bit harsher to make people forcibly learn some things.

But with the jump potions enabling you to skip MANY things, this included, I personally think there should be a requirement added where a new account (Meaning an account that doesn't have an alt character at 50+) when using a jump potion, you're still made to go in there to learn the very basics.

I honestly don't think it needs to be mandatory. As a player that was around well before hall of the Novice, a player that's paying attention picked up their basics in guildhest's and went from there. And it was hella harder to hold aggro as a tank then. If anything ranged needs to learn to click on the monster tank is first focused on it's an extra one second of thier time to do so. Oh and wait till tank actually gets thier aggro started to attack would be good to.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

a player that's paying attention picked up their basics in guildhest's and went from there.

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First of all, most players aren't paying attention. (click-click-click-click "wait what did it say in that text box I clicked away? Hope it wasn't important" click-click-click)

Secondly, you don't learn much from the first couple of guildhests other than to focus on the boss and ignore everything else - and lots of players never do more than the first few hests.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

There is a quest early on that requires you to have an ilevel of 5, that probably a lot of people didn't even notice.

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That quest was a lot more noticable back before they raised the ilevel of your starting gear from 1 to 5 for no good reason.

Today that quest, in practice, just requires you to equip a piece of head gear of ilevel 5 or greater - which most people already have.
Used to be that you had to obtain a pair of pants from an NPC vendor or similar - because the first pants you get as a quest reward aren't until level 9 or so, so few people had pants of ilevel 5+ when they did the quest.

This idea gives me immediate vibes from WoW’s Warlords of Draenor, where you had to get silver ranking just to do the max level dungeons. Not close to being a fair comparison, of course.

Don’t think this would really solve anything, honestly. Sastasha can pretty much be cleared by a group of nothing but dps.